Do Liberals believe in Multiculturalism or Integration? - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Modern liberalism. Civil rights and liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare).
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#14778270
"Pants-of-dog"]Please provide a link to one of these studies. Thank you.

Here you go...
http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/sh ... 52465.html

Your faith is not an argument.


-----Neither is yours.------------


Yes, you mentioned poor countries, but I do not agree that poor countries have a problem with multiculturalism. Much the same way I do not agree that i migration into the UK has created any unsustainable issues.

See above link that you requested. It is amazing how ill informed you seem to be on this subject yet so adamant in your opinions.
#14778273
One Degree wrote:Here you go...
http://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/sh ... 52465.html


You claimed you had a link to a study. That is not a study.

-----Neither is yours.------------


Good thing I am not doing that.

See above link that you requested. It is amazing how ill informed you seem to be on this subject yet so adamant in your opinions.


You mean the link that is not to a study despite your claims?
#14778275
Pants-of-dog wrote:You claimed you had a link to a study. That is not a study.



Good thing I am not doing that.



You mean the link that is not to a study despite your claims?


The very first line of the story provides a link to the study. Your dishonest tactics are starting to become tiresome.
#14778280
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then please provide that link.

If you wanted to actually make an argument, I would also suggest quoting the relevant text that supports your claim. Thanks.


If you are too lazy to click on a link, then it is obvious you are not going to bother discussing rationally.
#14778311
Pants-of-dog wrote:That is an opinion and not an argument.



Please provide evidence for this claim, thank you.



Why not just let them decide? Many white people seem to have the idea that they can shuffle people of colour around wherever they want.



Please provide evidence for these claims. Thank you.

------------------



To a degree, yes, but ethnic equality in Canada is not perfect. There are still issues concerning racism against blacks and indigenous people. These problems stem from economics.

This thread, however, is about immigrants, and since Canada benefits economically from immigration, the he problems we do have concerning ethnic minorities are not with immigrants.

-----------------



By the same logic, no one can confidently claim that it does not work, except maybe a...whatever the opposite of a utopian dreamer is.



I am not sure that you are correct. While many poor countries have problems due to their poverty or a legacy of colonialism and imperialism, they do not seem to have troubles with ethnic or cultural diversity.

-----------------



The Scottish people, the Welsh, the Brits and the Irish seem to be getting along. Even though the English can't seem to keep their hands off Irish lands.



Please provide evidence for these claims. Thank you.


Lots of things to answer to here.

1) It's a debating site, and opinions count
2) Shuffling people about has nothing to do with colour. This is about culture, and Syrians etc etc, do not fit into a western culture, although I am sure they love the rich pickings.
3) These claims you have that countries like Canada benefit from immigration are arguable. We have the same crap thrown at us in the UK. Conveniently issues such as free health care and the fact they fill our prisons are not taken into account.
4) LOL. I love the bit about the Welsh, Scots, and Irish. Firstly, the welsh and the scots get on with us fine, although a few of them have chips on their shoulders. Secondly, Southern Ireland is a separate country to Northern Ireland. It's true that the English stole this hundreds of years ago, but that's ancient history, as was the Americans taking America from the indigenous people. The vast majority of Northern Ireland want to remain part of the UK, the remainder are just a bunch of terrorists.

It's only liberals with their blinkered politically correct views who actually believe that multiculturalism on any level actually works. Some Americans pretend it works, as do some Brits, but they are only kidding themselves.
#14778316
Know It All wrote:Lots of things to answer to here.

1) It's a debating site, and opinions count


No, they do not. Your feelings are not a logical rebuttal to facts, evidence, or logic.

2) Shuffling people about has nothing to do with colour. This is about culture, and Syrians etc etc, do not fit into a western culture, although I am sure they love the rich pickings.


Historically, the forced movement of people has been about colour. The transatlantic slave trade is one example, and so ois the trail of tears.

3) These claims you have that countries like Canada benefit from immigration are arguable. We have the same crap thrown at us in the UK. Conveniently issues such as free health care and the fact they fill our prisons are not taken into account.


Please provide evidence for this claim, thank you.

4) LOL. I love the bit about the Welsh, Scots, and Irish. Firstly, the welsh and the scots get on with us fine, although a few of them have chips on their shoulders. Secondly, Southern Ireland is a separate country to Northern Ireland. It's true that the English stole this hundreds of years ago, but that's ancient history, as was the Americans taking America from the indigenous people. The vast majority of Northern Ireland want to remain part of the UK, the remainder are just a bunch of terrorists.


Ignoring your obvious lack of knowledge about indigenous struggles in the Americas, I will simply point out that you seem to agree that multiculturalism has worked in the UK.

It's only liberals with their blinkered politically correct views who actually believe that multiculturalism on any level actually works. Some Americans pretend it works, as do some Brits, but they are only kidding themselves.


Please provide evidence for the claim that multiculturalism does not work. No, your opinion does not count.
#14778330
One Degree wrote:The very first line of the story provides a link to the study. Your dishonest tactics are starting to become tiresome.


Have you not conversed with a Marxist before?

We are talking of a belief system that is akin to that of other religions, so using that model it's possible to appreciate what is going on.
Of course, it's a belief system that believes itself to be utterly rational. However, it is possible to use the appearence of rationality, here showing itself in such examples as 'not knowing' the difference between sustainable immigration and mass immigration merely because an exact mathematical distinction cannot be made.
#14778338
jakell wrote:Have you not conversed with a Marxist before?

We are talking of a belief system that is akin to that of other religions, so using that model it's possible to appreciate what is going on.
Of course, it's a belief system that believes itself to be utterly rational. However, it is possible to use the appearence of rationality, here showing itself in such examples as 'not knowing' the difference between sustainable immigration and mass immigration merely because an exact mathematical distinction cannot be made.


I can't help being an eternal optimist. I still expect some Marxist to say, "There really is something to life other than controlling the means of production!" :D
#14778354
Pants-of-dog wrote:Please show how my Marxism has made me believe irrational things about multiculturalism. Thank you.

Also, please show how modern immigration to the UK has created anything unsustainable. Thanks.


Wonderful ironic twist on what I said, at least you have a sense of humour.

There may be hope for you yet, although this may be One Degree's eternal optimism rubbing off on me.
#14778379
Pants-of-dog wrote:Sure.

Do you have anything to say about multiculturalism, or more specifically your claim about unsustainable aspects of modern immigration?


You mean "..anything more"? No, I'm quite content with my utterances so far.

Regarding the second part.. I've looked back and can't find such a claim (although you have tried to make one on my behalf).
#14778408
jakell wrote:You mean "..anything more"? No, I'm quite content with my utterances so far.

Regarding the second part.. I've looked back and can't find such a claim (although you have tried to make one on my behalf).


You said:

jakell wrote:.....
I suppose I would 'define' it as the point past which a society/culture becomes unsustainable if immigration/migration continues at that rate.
...


And you said this in reference to modern immigration.

To me, it seems like there is no indication whatsoever that modern immigration is making anything unsustainable. This is partly due to the fact that you have yet to support this claim.
#14778432
[quote="Pants-of-dog"]Are you talking about local whites, or actual indigenous people? Europeans tend to use "indigenous" to mean locals, while in Canada it emans actual indigenous people.

It seems that Canadians understand English better than we do, 'if' your statement were true, but of course, I know not if that has actually been established?

My understanding(as an 'Englishman')is that 'local' means local to a particular place & not to a country.

'Indigenous' means 'native' to the country.

I am an 'Englishman', NOT 'British', I am therefore an 'indigenous 'Englishman'.

Being born in a particular country doesn't necessarily make one 'indigenous', being black & born in England doesn't make one indigenous.
Being white, born in Africa, doesn't make one 'indigenous' to Africa.

Each country does have it's 'indigenous' & 'local' people.

Those who are not 'indigenous' to the country in which they are born, do acquire 'rights' equal to all within the law.

It's purely 'accident of birth' that determines who we are, there's nothing else to it, it's that fact that has created the national borders over time, but which the 'illuminate' wish to abolish.

For small countries, like those of Europe, 'nationalism' will never be subsumed to one government in one European country, our physical borders have meaning & when overpopulation along with increasing demand for resources outstrips supply trouble will arise.
#14778460
jakell wrote:There is no claim there, I am giving my take on the phrase 'mass immigration', which is what you were asking about.


Okay. That makes sense.

----------------

@Nonsense

I tend to use "indigenous" in the UNDRIP sense, but I know white Europeans like to use the word "indigenous" to describe themselves.
#14778503
Reading this thread reminded me of this article;

British public wrong about nearly everything, survey shows

The research, carried out by Ipsos Mori from a phone survey of 1,015 people aged 16 to 75, lists ten misconceptions held by the British public. Among the biggest misconceptions are:

- Benefit fraud: the public think that £24 of every £100 of benefits is fraudulently claimed. Official estimates are that just 70 pence in every £100 is fraudulent - so the public conception is out by a factor of 34.

- Immigration: some 31 per cent of the population is thought to consist of recent immigrants, when the figure is actually 13 per cent. Even including illegal immigrants, the figure is only about 15 per cent. On the issue of ethnicity, black and Asian people are thought to make up 30 per cent of the population, when the figure is closer to 11 per cent.

- Crime: some 58 per cent of people do not believe crime is falling, when the Crime Survey for England and Wales shows that incidents of crime were 19 per cent lower in 2012 than in 2006/07 and 53 per cent lower than in 1995. Some 51 per cent think violent crime is rising, when it has fallen from almost 2.5 million incidents in 2006/07 to under 2 million in 2012.

- Teen pregnancy is thought to be 25 times higher than the official estimates: 15 per cent of of girls under 16 are thought to become pregnant every year, when official figures say the amount is closer to 0.6 per cent.

Among the other surprising figures are that 26 per cent of people think foreign aid is in the top three items the Government spends money on (it actually makes up just 1.1 per cent of expenditure), and that 29 per cent of people think more is spent on Jobseekers' Allowance than pensions.

In fact we spend 15 times more on pensions - £4.9 billion on JSA vs £74.2 billion on pensions.
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