The War on Cuba Part I and II - Page 18 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15170207
For the ones who keep bullshititng about how perfect capitalism in the Third World is....the failures of socialism that XogGyux has eloquently pointed out do have answers to the failures. It is this:



People need to ride that democracy and including everyone to be participating in their own jobs, and workplaces and being flexible and allowing small and larger businesses to be about EQUALIZING power relationships. Between individuals and between groups and between workers and others. More cooperation and more of all pulling it all together with each other? We will find a way out of the mess.


Human failure is very important in history. Learning from it is very important. I learned a lot about how to live life by how human beings during thousands of years and millions of years kept GETTING UP and struggling. STRUGGLE. Waiting for some Empire or some abusive group to tell you who you are or who you can become by some external yard stick?! No. Keep going.



Thank you all for participating in this thread. Thank you to @Pants-of-dog , @XogGyux ,@jimjam @late @Potemkin @MadMonk @wat0n and all of you.

Out of the many one gets to the truth sometimes.

I love you all!
#15170208
Tainari88 wrote:@XogGyux Latin America is falling apart. Those caravans of Hondurans and Salvadorans and etc. are there because they have serious issues with economics. I know so many Cubans in Merida, Mexico with degrees and they are trying to scrape by like Kelsey. One an engineer his name is Rene. Another Javier has a newborn daughter and a wife in Cuba and his dream is to own his own fleet of vans for tourism in Merida. None of them make enough money in Mexico. It is a capitalist system. But it is underdevelopment and seriously low wages here. No one can get ahead with $2 dollars an hour. If you make $10,000 Mexican pesos a month here you are lucky. And that is about $500 dollars a month USA. It won't get you far.

Capitalism the way it is practiced in Latin America is not making things easy for any professionals XogGyux. The issue has to do with being extraction economies and in service to multinational corporations and banks that live off of many nations GDP and debt servicing. PR is never going to get out of its bad economic position with a debt that cripples it. But that is what the USA and the local corrupt politicians and the PROMESA panel want in PR.

There is no relief at all. The real issue is the trickle down economics in the USA and the neoliberals like Milton Friedman and how they set up the entire nations of the UNALIGNED group to service the banks and the corporations in the G8 and so on dominant economic nations. It is an imbalance of power XogGyux. So capitalism in the Thir World is not a panacea and not a solution.

For me international cooperation and peaceful co-existence between many different nations respecting each other and cooperating in mutual benefit groups is the only solution. Waging cold wars and hot wars and stupid wars on each other is undermining all of anyone's hopes for progress. That way the Mexicans get improved lives, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Nicaraguans, Hondurans and everyone else out there and they can STAY home and the USA can try to solve having half the population backing a damn conman from Queens. Lol. :lol: :)


@Tainari88 This reminds me of the alcoholic that says he drinks because life is too hard. Guess what, alcohol is not making it any easier.
Latin America has it hard, Cuba's system is like alcohol, is not going to make it any easier, it is in fact making it worse.
I am sorry, 2 wrongs don't make a right.
You think Venezuela is better off today? And they didn't even try to fully "cubanize"... imagine if they did.
#15170211
Julian658 wrote:Since I grew up in Puerto Rico going to Cuba would not be exotic. I would also be embarrassed to use an engineer as a taxi driver.

I agree with you regarding the calamities of people living in socialists nations. BTW, there are plenty of Cuban socialism lovers among the lefties in PR. They talk all day long about how oppressed they are by the Yankees while they manipulate the medical system to become incapacitated and milk the federal government for dollars, SNAP, and all kinds of benefits. Despite the so-called oppression Puerto Rico has the second best per capita income in Latin America. I suspect it could be higher, but 43% of the people are below the poverty line. Worse than Mississippi at 20%.


This is a problem, bucketing everything "progressive" into the "socialist" bucket. For one, I don't even consider Cuba a good example of a "socialist nation." The whole theory of socialism is that the means of production/trade/etc is regulated by the community. If you want to argue that because the goverment represents the community at large... then you must have a democratic system for this to be considered socialism. Cuba is not democratic, thus it does not fit inside the socialism, much less communism bucket. It might appear highly pendantic but this lends itself to equivocation fallacy, E.G. Cuba is socialism, cuba is bad, socialism therefore is bad, findland is going to be bad just as much as cuba because they have socialist ideas. Except no, you are calling two widely different systems by the same name.
I believe this is one of the main reasons why some highly uninformed people end up defending cuba... "I am a lefty, therefore, if cuba is a lefty country I must defend"... except this is comeplete garbage.

They talk all day long about how oppressed they are by the Yankees while they manipulate the medical system to become incapacitated and milk the federal government for dollars, SNAP, and all kinds of benefits.

Well, I'll argue that if your system is so fucked up that this is a REAL issue, then you got bigger problems. I am not saying that this does not happen, it does, but it is not as common as people make it believe. Furthermore, the alternative is even worse.
For instance, our medical insurance system is a fucking failure. Two months ago I admitted to my hospital a 20ish young guy. He had a chron's flare, basically his body's inmune system is attacking his intestings and his guts are rotting. I am choosing my words carefully so you guys can easily picture how fucking painful it is to live like this, and eventually die like this. Because it is what this guy has to look forward to in the next few years. So far, he has received a dozen surgeries to fix multiple abscesses and intra-abdominal infections that were caused by the creation of fistulous tracts (conections between the gut and other parts of the body, such as the bladder). He was at some point well controlled on Remicade (infliximab) which cost about 20k+ USD per year. His insurance didn't want to cover it, so he kept having flares, eventually he lost his job from not showing up and his insurance. Now he just comes in to the hospital, gets more surgeries (offcourse, hospital doesnt get paid, so this is eventually passed on into the cost of other patient's insurance and/or to the goverment-taxpayer) which is not a fix, is more expensive, and it is a crappier solution because you kind of need intestines, if we keep cutting pieces out of you, eventually there is nothing left and you die.
This happens very often.
There are things that companies should not be allowed to profit from. Healthcare, basic education, general warfare, war, utilities, firefighters/ambulances/etc. Anything else it is fair game, but these things are too important to allow economies dictate it.
#15170214
XogGyux wrote:This is a problem, bucketing everything "progressive" into the "socialist" bucket. For one, I don't even consider Cuba a good example of a "socialist nation." The whole theory of socialism is that the means of production/trade/etc is regulated by the community. If you want to argue that because the goverment represents the community at large... then you must have a democratic system for this to be considered socialism. Cuba is not democratic, thus it does not fit inside the socialism, much less communism bucket. It might appear highly pendantic but this lends itself to equivocation fallacy, E.G. Cuba is socialism, cuba is bad, socialism therefore is bad, findland is going to be bad just as much as cuba because they have socialist ideas. Except no, you are calling two widely different systems by the same name.


You are preaching to the choir; you are correct. However, there is a reason why nations that adopt socialism become dictatorships. In a free democratic society you will never achieve a state where 100% of the population wants socialism. If a nation decides they want socialism they would have to forbid any entrepreneurial activity and hence that would be repressive and authoritarian.

Secondly, there is the problem of having firms that belong to the entire population with the community at the helm. This type of socialism works in small groups, but it fails in large scale. Any successful enterprise needs a director that has a stake in the business. In any event in a capitalist nation no one forbids citizens to band together and create a workers owned business. In fact, in America there are lots of COOP businesses.

In any event it is impossible to have a socialist nation without coercion by the state.

I believe this is one of the main reasons why some highly uninformed people end up defending cuba... "I am a lefty, therefore, if cuba is a lefty country I must defend"... except this is comeplete garbage.


I often wonder about that. But, there is also the issue “the I hate America” lefty that compares the imperfections of capitalism with an utopia.


Well, I'll argue that if your system is so fucked up that this is a REAL issue, then you got bigger problems. I am not saying that this does not happen, it does, but it is not as common as people make it believe. Furthermore, the alternative is even worse.
For instance, our medical insurance system is a fucking failure. Two months ago I admitted to my hospital a 20ish young guy. He had a chron's flare, basically his body's inmune system is attacking his intestings and his guts are rotting. I am choosing my words carefully so you guys can easily picture how fucking painful it is to live like this, and eventually die like this. Because it is what this guy has to look forward to in the next few years. So far, he has received a dozen surgeries to fix multiple abscesses and intra-abdominal infections that were caused by the creation of fistulous tracts (conections between the gut and other parts of the body, such as the bladder). He was at some point well controlled on Remicade (infliximab) which cost about 20k+ USD per year. His insurance didn't want to cover it, so he kept having flares, eventually he lost his job from not showing up and his insurance. Now he just comes in to the hospital, gets more surgeries (offcourse, hospital doesnt get paid, so this is eventually passed on into the cost of other patient's insurance and/or to the goverment-taxpayer) which is not a fix, is more expensive, and it is a crappier solution because you kind of need intestines, if we keep cutting pieces out of you, eventually there is nothing left and you die.
This happens very often.
There are things that companies should not be allowed to profit from. Healthcare, basic education, general warfare, war, utilities, firefighters/ambulances/etc. Anything else it is fair game, but these things are too important to allow economies dictate it.


The insurance companies are ran by bureaucrats that get bonus pay by denying care. There is a mechanism in place for physicians to overcome this. They have to setup a peer to peer conference with the medical director of the the health insurance company. However many do not have the time.

I left PR more than 40 years ago. Our problem is too much poverty. There is a lot of corruption and ignorance. If the USA had not invaded I would have ended up in Spain instead of the USA.
#15170215
Julian658 wrote:You are preaching to the choir; you are correct. However, there is a reason why nations that adopt socialism become dictatorships. In a free democratic society you will never achieve a state where 100% of the population wants socialism.

That is completely irrelevant. There is no country that 100% of the population agrees on anything. That does not mean they are dictatorships. Look at the US... 50/50 split... it is not a dictatorship.
Also don't come with some post-hoc theory of how this only happens to apply if you have some sort of socialism in mind.
There are plenty of countries with strong "left" ideas (again, I am not affraid of using the term, but many people use the same term to refer to wildly different things) that work great.

There is a mechanism in place for physicians to overcome this.

There are 2 different problems. One is denying coverage to someone who is insured, the other issue is completely different which is people that are uninsured. If you are uninsured and have a medical problem you are fucked because even though you might get care, it will not be optimal, and you will enter a vicious cycle that it is very hard to get out off, not impossible but hard, specially for the average people.
As for physicians "overcoming" denial of care... good fucking luck. Insurance companies have found out that we are not patient enough, nor want to waste our time to spend 40mins at a time, several times to get pill X approved.

There is a lot of corruption and ignorance.

Corruption, that's for sure.
It is rampant. Everywhere in latin america.
#15170272
Tainari88 wrote:abusive group to tell you who you are or who you can become by some external yard stick?! No. Keep going.

I've never had much use for "external yard sticks". Seemed to be a road to mental turmoil. A detour from my personal goal of peace of mind. In high school they sent me to a "guidance counselor" who informed me that I was an "under achiever" :lol: . I nodded and said nothing but thought, "I will be the one to decide what is worth achieving for myself."

Many years ago my old Gloucester fishing boat captain friend, Dutchie Vegliano, said to me, "Money make you crazy."
#15170273
XogGyux wrote:That is completely irrelevant. There is no country that 100% of the population agrees on anything. That does not mean they are dictatorships. Look at the US... 50/50 split... it is not a dictatorship.
Also don't come with some post-hoc theory of how this only happens to apply if you have some sort of socialism in mind.
There are plenty of countries with strong "left" ideas (again, I am not affraid of using the term, but many people use the same term to refer to wildly different things) that work great.


I do not disagree, but socialism in the full sense of the word requires 100% involvement of the citizens in an given nation. Not only that, according to hard core marxists it requires the entire world to adopt socialism. If a nation adopts socialism then by definition it would not allow self centered entrepreneurial activity by its citizens. Socialism would need to be imposed by coercion in those that believe in a free market economy. Meanwhile in a free market economy citizens are allowed to form groups and live like socialists if that is what they want.


There are 2 different problems. One is denying coverage to someone who is insured, the other issue is completely different which is people that are uninsured. If you are uninsured and have a medical problem you are fucked because even though you might get care, it will not be optimal, and you will enter a vicious cycle that it is very hard to get out off, not impossible but hard, specially for the average people.
As for physicians "overcoming" denial of care... good fucking luck. Insurance companies have found out that we are not patient enough, nor want to waste our time to spend 40mins at a time, several times to get pill X approved.


It is time consuming and requires the attending physician to twist the arm of the physician that works for the insurance company.

There are three desirable qualities to medical care:

Availability
Quality
Low price

Only two out of three can be achieved at any given time in most nations. If available and of high quality it will cost a lot of money.
#15170274
jimjam wrote:I've never had much use for "external yard sticks". Seemed to be a road to mental turmoil. A detour from my personal goal of peace of mind. In high school they sent me to a "guidance counselor" who informed me that I was an "under achiever" :lol: . I nodded and said nothing but thought, "I will be the one to decide what is worth achieving for myself."

They assumed that their values must also be your values. And if they weren't, then there must be something "wrong" with you. I've noticed that if you don't endorse other people's values, it seems to personally offend them. Assholes. Lol.

Many years ago my old Gloucester fishing boat captain friend, Dutchie Vegliano, said to me, "Money make you crazy."

True dat.
#15170283
XogGyux wrote:Just because they are incapable does not mean they don't/didn't want to.


I am glad you arrived to the right conclusion.


I am glad you understand.


You are steering into the realm of simplistic/childish understanding of complex matters. People stay in abusive relationships for many reasons and sometimes for no good reason. Money and kids are two of many, but simple old psychology, fear of the unknown, "being used to this way of life", and many other reasons also apply. When you minimize such a complex topic to a couple simplistic "reasons" you end up lossing the big picture.


So the Korean people don't revolt against their despotic leader because they are afraid China is going to sweep in and save him? Sure.
Perhaps China might join in an all-in war, but a few dozen "guerrilla" that inspire the Koreans to free themselves? nah
Besides, all of that is irrelevant to the point. The point is, that just because people don't immediately rebel against their government does not mean that the government is not corrupt/tyrannical. That is the whole point. The larger geopolitical implications are besides the point.


Bullshit. Over and over and over. All I see is excuses left and right. If you wrote a book about excuses it would probably be longer than all the books from The Lord of the Rings.
You know, it is bad enough that other countries such as spain (initially) then the US, and to a degree russia also used Cuba for its business. But what it is unforgivable it is his own people, Fidel, Raul, etc, fucking cubans over and over and over.


1. So you agree that Cuba never engaged in any imperialism or colonialism like the USA did and still does. At best, you can argue that the Cubans (and everyone else!) wanted to.

2. I will listen to my own experience helping people leave abusive relationships. If you are going to make comparisons, I suggest doing it with fields that you have knowledge about. But you seem to have no argument as to why the Cuban people would not enjoy having the USA “liberate” them.

3. No, we were talking about the USA and why it does not invade. The USA does not invade Korea for the reasons I listed. The same reasons would not apply to a US invasion of Cuba.

4. Do you also support US intervention in other countries in Latin America?
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