Peru's Hidden War - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By bach
#24411
I have been watching peruvian TV all my life, and have never seen a single report of this, except the (japanese embassy hijacking)thats why believe this is a total cover up, moreover a pure crime done by the state, proving to me how the media does manipulate information by orders of the government and other centers of power.

at least 40,000 people died or disappeared in Peru between 1980 and 2000, a report published by the country's Truth and Reconciliation Commission on Thursday is expected to say.
The two-year investigation into violence during the state's crackdown on left-wing rebels will be handed to Peru's President Alejandro Toledo at 1200 (1700 GMT) in the capital, Lima.

The report says most of the victims of Peru's internal war are believed to have come from indigenous communities, trapped between state troops and rebel insurgents such as the Shining Path.

The commission - which collected 17,000 testimonies from people affected by the violence - says it will now work to help Peru put the horrors of the past behind it.

Atrocity

The report's nine volumes of evidence and other information cover Peru's brutal civil war, which ranks among the bloodiest in Latin American history.

Warfare - spanning three presidencies - between the Shining Path guerrillas and the government often claimed civilian victims, the report says.

Zuniga, a 30-year old resident in Lima said people did not take note of the fighting before it reached the capital.

"I was only 15. We didn't pay attention to what was happening in the countryside," she said.

"It didn't affect us. You didn't realise that often it was innocent people who died."

Official blame

The BBC's Hannah Hennessey in Lima says the investigation team blames the military for most of the violence, not the guerrilla groups as was initially assumed.

About 100 military officers are expected to be named in the report, commissioner Gasten Garatea told AFP news agency.

Records detailing serious human rights violations by individual officers will not made available to the public, but will be handed directly to prosecutors.

Retired generals formerly responsible for rebel-held areas - generally remote sections of the Andes mountains - have criticised the report ahead of its release, saying they have done nothing wrong.

Mr Garatea warned the final toll of dead and unaccounted for in Peru's Cold War-era conflict could reach up to 75,000.

The conflict is estimated to have cost the country about $25bn in damage.

By Freedom
#24453
I dont follow events in Peru much...but i know one thing...a while ago i heard a report on the news about the government declaring martial law in response to protests or uprisings or terrorists acts or something...cant remember the full details...bah...
By Nox
#24494
Bach,

I was in Peru a couple years ago (a beautiful country) and one night the train was delayed because of a 'rebel attack'. Nary a word about it in any of the local rags or national rag.

I believe what your article says.

By the way, Laurie Berentsen deserves to stay in jail.

Nox
By Inti
#26142
Bach....

Im glad that someone takes interest in the politics of peru.. I have just started studying on the subject but I havent come very far, though I have a good source of information (my wife, peruvian)... There is some "rebel movements" but as for Sendero Luminoso (the shining path) they are just terrorists.. Many of the Senderistas got asylum in scandinavia before the world knew what the shining path is about.. By the way, are you spanish speaking?
By bach
#26201
Well, I dont know that much about Peru politics, just what the TV showed me for 10 years, but it can cleraly be seen that corruption and poverty go hand in hand.

When a say poverty, I mean it, is not that I havent seen poverty like the one in peru, is just that it is so extensive among the population, although I dont have an exact number, I would say 60 percent of the population lives under poverty.

Then you have the president who defrauded the country for millions, by the way is not Peruvian, and now is in Japan living happily with the money, and because he is a japanese citizen he cant be extradited to be judged. I mean, what other country in this worl has a president who has a different nationality, or that at least has a double nationality.

For that matter I think the native indians who lived in machu pichu had a better life, there where sacrifices, but for instance natives would exchange a fish for fruits, and yet they would only take what they needed. it was a magnificent culture, until the spaniors came and destroyed everything onb their culture, they would destroyed the Incan temples and put churches on top of them.

Now I dont know anything about the popular movements because it just doesnt come up on the TV, or any other media outlet in Peru.

Maybe you can tell me something, and yes I do speak spanish.
By Inti
#26221
Hello again Bach..

I agree on most of what you are saying, if not all..

Fujimori was a real bastard, no doubt about it. Peru has had the bad luck of getting bad leaders. Just look at Alan Garcia that was just before as well http://alangarcia.itgo.com/ ... He could give you nightmares. Im not sure how well Toledo is doing, my wife doesnt tell me much and doesnt know it all she says.. As for Fujimori she is sure, but she said that it started to get really bad in the 80s with Garcia and terrorist bombings in lima.

I was in Peru last year my first and my second time, and what I saw really surprised me because I didnt know much about Peru before. Im starting to get into the Senderistas now and it aint pretty I tell you. I have some friends that got threatened and shot by senderistas but survived and escaped to Norway.

A disturbing thing is that Senderistas also got asylum in sweden and norway at least, if not in the whole world, before the governments here realized what the sendero luminoso was. There are lots of Senderistas in Sweden, and I learned that one of the Peruvians here in Oslo are one as well..

I also think that the native indians had a better life before, even with the sacrifices and all, they lived more in harmony most of the time. The conquistadores came at exactly wrong time, or right, depends who you like... The Inkas were divided in two at that time and they werent united, which became their fall... And its said that the Inkas were too well organized and that was why they got beaten easier as well. Not like the Mapuches in Chile that were more anarcistic and only united in case of war or emergency... The mapuches were even feared by pinochet.. but that is another story..

Where are you from by the way Bach? I hail from sweden but live in Norway.. Land of the polar bears and the vikings :knife:
By bach
#26265
"El Indio Toledo" the indian Toledo, how they call him studied in Hardvard, now he has nothing of poor or indian, because when you go to Hardvard is because you have the cash and you knwo the people who can get you inside.

Now from this you might perfectly know to what song does he dance to, mostly washington, there is a controversy, well not that much, becasue they already approved to drill gas from the virgin Amazon were native indians live. Thats is not a problem because the deal is closed and the indians have to go as well as the rainforest, so see Toledo is the guy you want if you're in Washington, but not quite the guy you want for president if you lived in Peru.
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By Baron Nogood
#109209
Another thing that I have briefly studied (due to the general nature of my degree!).

This war was far from hidden, and I believe there are still some small level skirmishes to this day. Although the bastard that actually created Sendero is in jail (Dr Gonzalez) there are a few loons still out there.

TV is crap, especially Peruvian TV. The reason that martial law was declared in 2003 was due to rioting by firstly teachers and then indigenous groups etc...it got out of hand. I know this because I was in Quito at the time where rioting was contained (I lived just 5 meters from the state run central university...others in the forum will tell you all the fun I had there!)

As for corruption, lets not forget that the now ousted Fujimori was a corrupt bastard, but he had a very difficult job...and so did the wonderful DINA (Secret police alledgely trained in the US for counter insurgency) also had their hands full with Sendero (a marxist terror group).

Sendero were the other side of that filthy coin, and routinely entered villages and strapped grenades to peoples heads (they particuarly liked doing this to aid workers and missionaries). Not pleasant. This resulted in a pogrom by the Peruvian military who see the indegenous population as dogs to be slaughtered, as do many governments in this region.

Thankfully, Fujimori and his national secutity head Montesinos are gone...but the mess remains.
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By Groovesmith
#109259
Im am Peruvian, Ive lived in lima for the past 3 years.

Martinal Law in 2003? when??? Ive lived here that year and i dont remeber of any law sorry! You must have been missinformed... as off 2003 they *lifted* all martial lawas as some states still remaied in such law.


I wanted to adress the issue of Toledo, or as we call him 'Choledo'. First of all he was poor and of very humble origin a shoe shiner from 'Ancash' and as i recall he got funded by members of a 'peace corp' who he considerds to be his second parents to study in Standford, with post studying in Harvard. If i recall correctly one of these he got some sort of scholarhip by playing soccer.

As for the figures you have stated above, Indeed the government especially the left coalition formed what they called "la comision de la verdad" which was encharged with producing the approriate files and facts of the peruvian dirty war.



Although the bastard that actually created Sendero is in jail (Dr Gonzalez) there are a few loons still out there.


Im sorry but Im really disapoitned with the use of the word bastard, and loon. People like Abismael they are not freaks of nature, they are propriate creations of the state. Let me tell you something about a word that was very trendy in peru called 'gamanolismo'(sp) which was tendency that meant that all indegenous people were 'lesser people', inferior to the white race.

Let me tell you more about Peru, the centralisation of the government in the last 20 years is amazinlgy great! Peru is Lima.... ther government never caared in looking for all the other big cities. So what happened then?
The clasjh bewteen country and city increased, thus everyone moved into the city hence almost half of peru's population is in lima. The formation of Pueblos Jovenes (shantty towns) increased the misery throughout. This made it for people like Guzman, members of the radical inteligentisia middle class people who saw so much crap around them that they decided to change things! Im NOT TALKING asbout the aftermath, for that reason yes guzman is a bastard, but the start of his movemenet gained a lot of support , some international support even. Of course when he mixed violence with politics everything went down the drain. Very maoisit in complete tradition he thought to be the 4 foundation of communism.

With regards to the Sendero, it basically broke down with Guzman's capture in sept 92. I suggest anyone to watch The Dancer Upstairs directed by John malkovich which re-tells the story quite nicely. Then he gave his famous speach in the cage were he said one the lines which i most remember him for. It went something along these lines: "You can take everything from a man, you can take his possesions, you can take his life, but this [pointing to his brain] this stays with the rest"

Revolutions arnt born over night, its not some crazed maniac who got up and said "shit im bored lets me a revolution". They are results of something and if you lived in Peru during those times ( i personally havent, but have talked to my uncles grandfather etc etc) it might be understandle why the Sendero Arose, even more understanble why it fell down. and Gonzalez is just a Dr from 1 year ago when he presented his PHD from Jail , something on "Kantian theory of Space"


TV is crap, especially Peruvian TV


I think Peruvian Media is very good actually, magazines like Caretas and the old TV Show Panorama were extrremly in formative. They give clear consice ideas not taking sides with the goverment. And they were a bastion to unite the people. You see the people finaly said STOP to sendero luminoso when they bombed a neigjherbhood called Miraflores at a place called 'La Tarata.' it was the first major attack agaisnt the big bourgeiosie rich upper classes, this caused a merger bewteen the Rich Niegbourhoods and the poorer ones such as Villa el Salvador....much of which was due to the MEDIA.



Fujimori was a real bastard


yes and im sure you would rather a terrorist group than el chino? Fuji did so much for the country, CORRUPT or not. Look at Operation Chavin De Huantar (Japanese Embassy) nobody else could have pulled it like FUJI.
He had the balls to call of congress in order to get things done in the country. You see unlike other democratic countires Peruvian Power Polticis are based on verbally beating the crap out of your adversary. Never improve because the president behind you was a shit munkey, start afresh is the dictum of most political parties!
By bach
#109268
The war was not hidden from the people living in the region, because they had to live with it, but I must say I never heard of it until I saw the article.

Now as far as the Montesinos and Fujimori, well those two really are a complete fraud, they stole money from everybody, to the right, to left, up and down. He stole money from the peruvian people, he stole money from the US to fund his criminal activities, he even stole frm the thiefs themselves, by selling the colombian guerillas 3000 jordainian AK 47 that only work with a special type of amunition, and not the standard.

luckilly they managed to catch Montesinos, becasue Fujimori is not coming back from Japan, nonetheless, even thought they have enough evidence they have not been ablee to convict Montesinos.

Especially after the sucker filmed everything he used to do, they even have lots of "Vladivideos". Funny they should even have videos of Montesinos making out with "Senorita Laura" :lol:

groovesmith as I recall the Japanese embassy thing went on for a long period of time, during which nothing was done, Fuji didnt do anything, in fact I heard rumors and there may be reports in which it is clear that the operation was planed and trained by US special forces, of course the tunel was build purely out of peruvian genious but thats as far as it went.

FUJI did something and that was to leave to never come back :D
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By Groovesmith
#109409
Bach,

You make various points, but I'll tyell you this much, When Fujimori was president he was like god like. If these fraud things would have never happened i can assure he would be amongst the greatest presidents my countryt has had.

Again I pose the question, Fujimori or Sendero Luminoso? Alan Garcia was a munkey during his regime belaunde was another country vs city freak. Those presidents didnt belive SL existed or didnt want to belive. Fujimori was a solid bastion for the country.

As to the rumours, i guess they will remain rumours. I recall that Isreal offered to send a special team but was refused by the peruvian government. During that 'nothing was done period' as you said

actually something was done, the peruvian commando team had built a full size replica of the Japanese Embassy in which they praticed their drills.

As to the vladivideos... I agree jajajaja that is a funny disgrace.

My thesis is this, Fuji is lying scumbag traitor whatever, but without Fuji Peru would be in a greater shitload than it is now. (pardon my french)
By CheLives
#164021
The state blaming half the deaths on the Communist Party of Peru (who the press incorectly calls 'shining path') is propaganda, and false. The Vast majority were killed by the state, and state run paramilataries.

The state's previously published numbers are the source for this.

According to US intelligence reports, the CPC had mass support in the rural communities, and the shanty towns, and were overwelmingly native.

This is one of the most maligned groups in the world. There is well documented refutations of the allegations made against them, ie being 'terrorist' etc.

The committe to support the rev. in Peru has many documents that sytamatically challenge many of these accusations.

Here is there site:

http://www.csrp.org/

Also see this article on the 'Truth Commission" and how they fudge numbers

http://www.csrp.org/cmte/Truthcom.htm
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By Odiseizam
#15176241
good reason for come back ... I didnt expect this, even by all her money (and probably cia support too) Castillo to take the lead is really miracle, thos she is so hated with reason [1][1] so this would be her third time loosing p-run, but this time from poor common counterpart ... only problem is that Castillo has support from shining path [2][2] and like that maybe extra target by cia aside the fact that he is calling for nationalization referendum ... yet this could be reconciliation opportunity but how the first among equals teacher to find balance and come to solution affordable to all ...

https://www.gulf-times.com/story/693472/Leftist-Castillo-edges-ahead-in-Peru-vote-count-as
Castillo "would be the first poor president of Peru"


... hm one way for sure is through open party but also institutional eForums so he would resolve at least the corruption mentality of the elites [7] what would be not only the quickest way for defraudalization of the economy but also wide debate on what path should carry on Peru ... another way around would be authoritarianism but will not become solution for the poverty in Peru nor good blueprint for the neighbors ... in a way its good that he dont have majority in the senate and like that wide open debate at least by all intellectuals as participatory democracy on institutional eForums could bring steady outcome that will suit most of the peruvians ...

think that their surge of sars'cov'2 cases is due to coca chewing as cardiovascular relation
definitely they should seek natural CBD remedies but someone needs to share the info
https://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=180508


here is some info for future outlook how the second run was unraveling [1][1][1][1][1] the question is just whether the votes from abroad will make some difference and how the same could be eventually faked by fujimory&rightCo!?

https://www.youtu.be/-JJd_f3HL7A
By late
#15176242
The Drug War had a lot to do with this.

When the governments in Peru or Columbia gave the drug lords a hard time, they would throw a few million at Shining Path. These are not strong governments, so they diverted their resources to holding things together.

The way it works is like this, the US government leans on a country to crack down on drugs. The drug lords throw money at the revolutionaries. The government starts to crumble under the assault, and the US gives them guns, money and support. Once the drug lords feel comfy, they stop throwing lots of money at the revolutionaries. But it's not long before Washington notices the resumption of cocaine smuggling, and leans on the government(s) to crack down on the drug lords and it starts all over.

Columbia has nearly collapsed into a failed state a number of times because America is too dumb to get it right.
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By Odiseizam
#15176330
@late as everything else, think above all that geopolitics is in question i.e. how usA to keep the southamerican states away fro Russia and China at least not to share their shores for their subs or capital, the same old story even when dictators are in question who would obey usA, altho that lead to extra amount of suffering for the cause of "democracy" i.e. western imperialism, yet the other side of the coin is eastern imperialism but with the dissolution of ussR the same now in face of Russia is no longer offensive nor direct threat to usA , and if needed is more inexpensive for usA to watch over those specific few naval bases that hosts from time to time russian submarines than spending billions for controlling own regimes around South America, yet if we know that cia controls large amount of the cocaine money flow that billions are not derived directly from usA and above all its attempt to control all movement by all players on the ground, that makes everything more intricate on top pushing poor states to buy expensive weapons!

for most of the southamerican states think some kind of amalgam of socialism and capitalism like the chinese one should be norm, knowing how big issue is poverty due to explosive population growth, and this is chance for Peru to come little by little to that, quickly if there is constant academician party and institutional e'debate on public e'forums so all energy to be concentrated at once on the issue what future model is more probable and doable, but as I can see the old skims are still in place so its really question what will happen in further, some pointing that the prime issue is the voting model [1] as if with whatever perfect voting model sometime soon peruvians will come to equal quality of life for all, what is striking tho is that the gap is so huge that Lima is even in worst position than Bngkok where the poor and rich are divided with water [2] while in Lima with wall [2][2][2] and this is the biggest problem for PedroC who will need to shrink the inequality, what by all means is undoable in such country except by socialism which will not undergo us interests what is almost unimaginable how should be done, Venezuela is the good blueprint how it shouldnt, yet if if promoted open participatory democracy as I propose all intellectual force could be mobilized and like that at least for beginning all corruption to be challenged through modern means, think one suitable would be how through mobile citizen surveillance to be enforced the stability of the system instead waiting on corrupt police to gather evidence or wait for the offenders on second mistake, probably if this is addressed in right manner even without socialism there will be extra opportunities for many i.e. to be employed exactly fair share of the budged for all ...

https://defendingthetruth.com/threads/bad-police.62284/post-1675827

actually if one sees how big corporate tax want JoeB to enforce in usA the same is almost next to socialism, compare it with any other capitalist state its unimaginable, yet coz the huge debt its logical maneuver, and as such it should be good example for Peru too thus like that will get greater budget and have more social opportunities while still keeping the capitalistic flow, simply any sudden transition to socialism will be in same manner devastating as any from social to capitalism, it should be strive that will pass smoothly as possible, but say this to all those "guerillas" in the mountains ...

[1] use cc-knob for translation

https://www.youtu.be/NcRlsMrGKTg
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By Odiseizam
#15176346
let see what can become from peruvian will with cuban breeze if not know'how, altho if measure is HOY by Glorian Estefan as cuban singing know'how by the peruvian songrwriters will of Gian Marco Zignago we can also expect extra happy vibe ahead, altho the same will not sell in usA too for sure [1] not aware till now who has misused the track in any peruvian election but think it suits extra all the poor and oppressed peruvians to see light at the end of the tunnel, but as Mujica says that shouldnt be reached by anger or hate nor I'll say by force, actually the change of the constitution is imminent even Peru stay capitalistic state [1] but dont forget the True Freedom Flag was from Peru which sadly was hujacked by us'globalist [1]

globalization indeed is extended western explatation
luckily till some extent was slowed recently
... lets see will the sun shine again bright for peruvians ...

https://www.youtu.be/cyblSDoRRxg

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