AOC:Puerto Rico is a Neo Colony? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15263038
XogGyux wrote:I agree, but unlikely to happen. Nothing to do with neocolonialism, it is simpler than that, republicans would never allow for this because of the perception that this would only rock the votes in favor of democrats. Not unlike D.C. statehood.
I don't think it is fair.

@Tainari88 Like I always say, I don't know enough about PR's internal politics to even pretend to know what they want or not. Based on the reports of polls I am not even convinced that Puerto Ricans actually know what they want (aka 2020 referendum with ~ 50:50 split with a slight edge for statehood but rather shitty turnout). But the idea that PR as a small island is going to ever be "independent" is laughable. Puerto rico imports most of its energy and food. You might achieve political independence, but real independence is not even in the cards.

I personally don't have a say on the matter, again I am not very familiar with PR's people's wishes. But I have a sense that proper statehood would be more beneficial for puerto ricans and would give you the representation that PR is entittled to.

As a side note, be careful for what you wish, you might get it and I am not certain that you will like it. For all its defects, the US is a great country, and at least PR get a US passport, that is more than cubans get. See how happy cubans are with their "independence".


Ay, @XogGyux I study history in the long view. What is the long view? A long view over hundreds of years and thousands of years. Not about what is the latest political flavor of the month view. The long view said that colonialism is not something that is sustainable for societies. Why? Because there is an imbalance of power between the colonizing group and the colonized. Between the invaded and the invaders. Power dynamics that are about lack of equality, lack of power and lack of balance.

Cuba was the last of the Spanish colonies. So was Puerto Rico and Guam and the Phillipines. All island nations and wanted for strategic military purposes. There are cases right now of small island nations who live well being independent. That is not controversial.

I do agree with your assessment that you don't know enough about it. I think every person has to examine their life choices and hope they can live with those choices without any problems. You chose to leave Cuba. You are happy with that choice. Invasions are not about choices. They are about CONQUEST, imposition and force being used on the invaded people. Imposition is not about fairness, justice, consultation and choice. It is about force and power and imperialism.

The reason the Cuban government always used to use the cucoof Washington DC is going to invade Cuba and force Cubans to give up their independence is because they did it to other countries and other territories. Including the ones in the Pacific and in the Caribbean.

Why is independence important and not colonialism forever over time in history? Why was independence important for the USA? For Mexico? For every nation in the Americas that is not a colony of some European power? For Africa and so on? Why fight for independence if you are better off as a colony?

The answer again lies in power relationships between countries and nations and groups of people who are the powerful and the ones with less power. You study that context.

Do you really think a Cuban who speaks Spanish and is born and raised in Cuba does not have a distinctive culture, land and history worth preserving and passing on their future generations? They do value that. All people value that for their own societies. Not just the Cubans. What the Cubans got a problem with? Is having to negotiate their economic choices with a very powerful northern neighbor who wants to control the resources of many other lands and people in order to keep their position in the world.

They want to keep their position even if it means using and abusing other places that have less guns, less land, and less power. That is the nature of the beast with Empires. The ones I studied in human history all are like that.

And we as Dr. Carl Sagan has stated over and over again. We entered the Nuclear Age. If we threaten and want to rule over all the rest and want to retain dominance forever and democracy is getting in the way of being the dominant power for all time? Get rid of that system. Because you get the real face of the government and the powerful by studying the smallest places they dominate. That is the truth. The ones with the least ability to defend themselves. That is where you see the worst of the imperial mindset. Not with the ones who are big opponents.

Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal. What happened?

That teaches others that the only way to avoid invasions is investing in nuclear weapons. And as Einstein said, if you spend a lot of time and money preparing for war and creating WMDs most probably you will wind up using it someday. People do not invest huge amounts of money, time and effort in endeavors they have no intention of utilizing XogGyux.

The USA is the only nation in WWII who did use it on another country.

The USA is an empire even though they stated they respect their democratic traditions. Do they? They really don't.

The future is unknown really. What I am stating here if you read this entire thread XogGyux? You should start realizing that the USA is not some democratic liberal perfect society. No human society is perfect. But what the USA has done in the past is kill off native peoples, repopulate the land with European extraction folks and the USA does have a dominant culture. It speaks English, it is Protestant in religious affiliations, it is also capitalist and the socialism it has was very very hard fought for. By the Left in the USA. The Left has been decimated for a long time. What there is now are liberals who are class conscious and who also sell their political power for money as well. In varying degrees both parties sell their principles for money. The Republicans are racists but even they know they can't really modify the demographic waves of the future.

But, that is not what concerns me. What concerns me is that they fail to change and adapt to what is required in time to avoid catastrophic problems. With the environment, with war, with accepting that they had not acted in time to lose all power to other groups that are going to not be able to consume at their old level of consumption and in the need to imitate a history of irresponsible wastage on a mass scale that is going to affect a bunch of nations who never had any semblance of consumerism. In other word everyone has to pay the price. For what the five percent did. That is unjust and horrible.

But unless people stop with the power of Myth? It is not going to happen.

Myth has no place in a world that needs solutions to huge problems. Because if it fails to find real world solutions and clings to fucking myths that are belied or revealed to be outright lies by facts and historical actions? There is no hope for the future but misery and nuclear problems.

I did not choose to leave Cuba. I was born in Puerto Rico. Not Cuba. Puerto Ricans were made US statutory citizens of the USA in 1917, despite voting against it. If you study Puerto Rican history it gives you facts. You study the facts. You think again that having US citizenship is worth any price. Is it XogGyux? How can you have true democracy without the ability to have voting representatives in congress or in the senate? How can you have true democracy with a bank panel board that no Puerto Rican ever voted for controlling all economic aspects of society?

Would you accept that if you lived in a state that said? You can live in Florida but Floridians can't vote in presidential elections. You got a resident commissioner but they also can't vote either. In order to gain rights you need to leave Florida. Why?

You need to start questioning context XogGyux. The WHYS of legislation and the whys of policy. Follow the money and follow the policies. It will give you all the answers you will ever need.

I got a Cuban man in my home here. He is 70 years old. He fought like hell to get to Miami, his first wife was Cuban and he had three kids with her. He married a New York Puerto Rican as his second wife. He is with the Guatemalan woman now for over 20 years.

He wants to live peacefully and in a place not the USA. Why? He believes in Republicanism and Trump stuff. he hated the government of Cuba. He told me the reasons. But in the end he loves his memories, his culture and his language and his feeling of HOME. For immigrants leaving is not a light decision. It is a heavy one. But the USA has received immigrants from all over the world. For what purpose? Mostly for a better life.

Which better life? One of some styles of middle-class living. A good standard of living. Based on what is promised. You learn English, you assimilate, you buy and consume and you get the fruits of your labor. That is changing rapidly now.

For Puerto Rico if we gave up our culture, our autonomy, our history and our land? What do we get in exchange? Consumer lifestyles? No. Most Puerto Ricans live in poverty and on less than $1000 dollars a month when the average rent is more than half that. Huge exodus from the island. But we are US citizens. Leave the island and forget about what that means? You got fifty states there to choose to go and become voting citizens.

Why force people out of their ancestral lands XogGyux? Why do that by saying you can't stay here and get full political rights. Why? Question that. You think it is because the Puerto Ricans themselves don't know what they want. No, XogGyux. They know that if they do force the issue of independence the answer from the USA is violence. Invasions and violence. It has happened when the nacionalistas have forced the issue and so have the macheteros. Independence is gaining ground. Why? Young people. All they have known like AOC there are bad economic times. Meltdowns and huge too big to fail bank bailouts and socialism for the very wealthy and capitalism and cutthroat competition for the very poor and the lower middle classes disappearing and becoming the working poor.

Where is the promised LAND of opportunities and political rights and so on?

But it is better than Cuba. Anything is better than Cuba. That is what you keep repeating to me.

No I take the long view. Cuba fought for its independence. Marti fought for it. So did many others. It was not in vain. The USA fought for its independence from King George eh? Was it in vain?

Mexico fought for its independence. Ask them if Mexico should give up its independence because hey, it is a poor country in comparison to who? Lol. The USA was filled with the poor of the entire world. Poor people immigrate. Not rich people in general.

The real key to success is taking responsibility for your own life. Your own prosperity and your ability to serve society. Your native society first. Then expanding your sphere of influence to include everyone else.

If you think the solution in the world is for all nations to become the playthings of Empires XogGyux? You never learned the valuable lessons learned from human history. Human history says, colonies will never be the best we can do as human civilizations. We can be independent and also help each other all together in one big wonderful cooperative unit...to make things better.

But we have to not believe in MYTH. Myth is ignoring what is in front of us because it is too painful to change in time. The USA needs to change what is wrong in its own system in time. Because right now it has betrayed its rhetoric in order to have a small elite live well. And that is exactly what all the other failed Empires did in the past. All of them.
#15263091
Tainari88 wrote:Ay, @XogGyux I study history in the long view. What is the long view? A long view over hundreds of years and thousands of years.

@Tainari88
In human history, what is the longest period of time that humans have gone without a dominating empire dictating the world around itself? The constant feature of human history is that there is always a regional empire that imposes its will upon the rest of humanity. A constant feature through human history is walls (to defend against invaders), weapons (to kill/invade others), rape, pillaging, war, and slavery. That is what humans do, and don't expect any changes in your lifetime, we have been doing this for ALL of recorded history (and probably much longer) and there is end in sight. As much as you might be disgusted at the US, the US has been a relatively meek empire, compared to those that came before it? Certainly. Look at the germans... the ottomans, the british, the french, portuguese, spanish? You think they were better influnece in their world as compared to the US? Hell no.
If the US was not the empire projecting power today... it could have been the USSR or perhaps China... but someone else would be projecting power, you can bet on it. My premise is that any of those alternatives are FAR worse than what we have.

The reason the Cuban government always used to use the cucoof Washington DC is going to invade Cuba and force Cubans to give up their independence is because they did it to other countries and other territories. Including the ones in the Pacific and in the Caribbean.

Most governments today are cuco of Washington DC. Not only the associated territories such as PR, but even larger countries. Look at Mexico folding like a pretzel to accommodate the Trump-led tantrums that culminated on NAFTA renegotiations.
I might not know anything about the internal politics of PR, but I do know that a tiny island in the middle of the caribbean is never going to be truly independent. You depend on outsiders for food, energy and virtually anything else. You are essentially economically dependent. Does not matter what you want to call yourself, or how you organize your goverment or elect your leaders.... When the US asks "Puerto rico, jump" the only words coming out of PR better be "how high".
Why is independence important and not colonialism forever over time in history?

A better question is... what can "Independence" do for you. What is it that you want, or think you want, that you cannot do now that you think you should be able to do and wether independence can realistically get you closer to that goal without seriously handicapping you somewhere else.

Do you really think a Cuban who speaks Spanish and is born and raised in Cuba does not have a distinctive culture, land and history worth preserving and passing on their future generations? They do value that. All people value that for their own societies. Not just the Cubans. What the Cubans got a problem with? Is having to negotiate their economic choices with a very powerful northern neighbor who wants to control the resources of many other lands and people in order to keep their position in the world.

But PR independence is not going to destroy or eliminate its powerful neighbor to the north. You will still have to deal with the US, presumably on more unfavorable terms.
What happens if the US decides it no longer wants a big portion of critical pharmaceuticals to be outsourced to an "independent" country and starts legislating rules and regulations to encourage companies to move production to the US... This is not an unreasonable case scenario... countries deem certain industries critical to their survival and pharmaceuticals might very well be one of them. Do you think PR would even survive an exodus of its largest industry? The day the US is out of PR... it will become just another Caribbean island like the rest, with only 3m people you guys are not a big market to sell anything, you are not rich to buy anything, you going to fall into deep economic disarray, I am certain of it.

They want to keep their position even if it means using and abusing other places that have less guns, less land, and less power. That is the nature of the beast with Empires. The ones I studied in human history all are like that.

Well, that is precisely my point. You shouldn't expect any improvement even if the US were to be removed from the world. If we were to snap our fingers today and make the whole US country dissapear, it wouldn't take much until the next empire is knocking down the door. Would you be more comfortable with a world led by Xi Jiping?

Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal. What happened?

Again. This only proves my point. The local superpower aggressively invaded them... It was not the US that did that... And if the US did not exist, Russia, China, and perhaps India would be running rampant imposing their dominance everywhere.
The US has many, and I mean MANY, defects. But I think the US is an overall positive influence compared to an alternative without it.

That teaches others that the only way to avoid invasions is investing in nuclear weapons.

That's bullshit.
The only country in the American continent that has nuclear weapons is the US... How many other countries are being at risks of a US invasion? Do you think the US will invade Canada anytime soon? Mexico? Guatemala? Venezuela? The cubans have been crying that the US want to conquest them for 70 years and the americans are not even paying attention to their cries. If the US really wanted to invade Cuba, it only needs to park any of its 10 carriers next to the island and all military assets in cuba would be blown in a matter of minutes.
This is more paranoia than a real risk. Modern western countries twists other countries with money and capital, not with weapons. Now, a world in which China or Russia are the top dogs... that world would be scary as hell.

The future is unknown really. What I am stating here if you read this entire thread XogGyux? You should start realizing that the USA is not some democratic liberal perfect society. No human society is perfect. But what the USA has done in the past is kill off native peoples, repopulate the land with European extraction folks and the USA does have a dominant culture. It speaks English, it is Protestant in religious affiliations, it is also capitalist and the socialism it has was very very hard fought for.

So what? Do you realize that PR is the same shit? PR speak spanish... do you think the native tainos spoke spanish? :lol: You and I are as much a result of Spanish colonization, oppression and brutality. Again, this proves my point. This is how it has always been. This is nothing new, it will not change anytime soon. The real question, the million dollar question is... if not under this system, then which system? The alternative to a world without the US as the leading power is not some sort of idyllic utopia kumbaya of hope and happiness... It is a world of terror and despair under the opression of the next powerful country, presumably China or Russia. Your anti-americanism is blinding you to the realities of the human race.

You think again that having US citizenship is worth any price.

Not "ANY" price. But it is worth more than you give it credit for.

Is it XogGyux? How can you have true democracy without the ability to have voting representatives in congress or in the senate?

But this is not what you want is it? To put someone in congress or the senate you need to be part of US proper... not independent. Mexico is independent and does not have senators or representatives in the US Congress.
If this is what you want, ascend to become another state in the united states, I think this is a perfectly reasonable request, possibly in the realms of possibilities and I would very much support that. I think it would be politically doable but an uphill but nothing to do with imperialistic wishes, but rather old-fashion blue/red internal politics. If puertorican wants full independence, again I am also OK with that, but I will also point out that you will more likely than not fuck the whole country 10X more than it is right now if you end up taking that route.

Would you accept that if you lived in a state that said? You can live in Florida but Floridians can't vote in presidential elections.

Again, you seem to be arguing two different points. Joining the US is diametrically opposed to becoming independent. Which one do you want?

No, XogGyux. They know that if they do force the issue of independence the answer from the USA is violence. Invasions and violence.

Highly doubt it. If they overwhelmingly vote for this I highly doubt it would be as you said. If this is a very slight majority trying to impose this upon a large minority (aka 51%/49%) sort of situation, that will likely lead to unrest and possibly violence. I think you overestimate the value of PR to the US.

But it is better than Cuba. Anything is better than Cuba. That is what you keep repeating to me.

Don't believe me? Fine, you have the right to not believe me.

No I take the long view. Cuba fought for its independence. Marti fought for it. So did many others. It was not in vain. The USA fought for its independence from King George eh? Was it in vain?

You seem to have a rather distorted view of history. The US did not go for independence because of some overwhelming desire of cultural preservation or patriotism. They did it for money, taxes money, specifically. The founder fathers, continental army... they were descendants of Europeans, they were the invaders of the land. The native americans did not have a say on american independence. Similar in cuba or mexico.

If you think the solution in the world is for all nations to become the playthings of Empires XogGyux?

That is not what I am saying at all. Instead, what I am saying is that people should be pragmatic and play the most strategically superior hand that they can. I am skeptical that a PR "independence" is going to lead to a better living situation to puerto ricans. The independent Caribbean country-states are not doing particularly good. You are certainly never going to be economically independent... this is a geographic truth, not a political one. PR is an island, and a small island at that. Goods are more expensive in islands, economic expansion is difficult in an island. Once upon a time, Cuba and PR were strategic ports for a world mostly fashioned around the galleon... but we are not in the world anymore.

You never learned the valuable lessons learned from human history.

On the contrary, I am suggesting that you should avoid repeating others' mistakes.
#15263096
America is to be greatly praised for not surrendering to the minority of Puerto Rican America haters who want to force independence on the majority of Puerto Ricans. The America haters are not able to get independence but they are able to undermine the move towards statehood. This suits the Republicans just fine, not because they're racist, but just because of politics. I'm sure if they thought that Puerto Rico would vote for Republican representatives they'd back Puerto Rican statehood.

In a way we've had an analogous situation in Britain. Here its the Europe haters, who succeeded in persuading the majority to vote to leave the EU in a referendum. Its just starting to dawn on some of the people who voted to leave what an incredibly stupid idea this was. If the independence movement in Puerto Rico is ever successful I expect there will be similar but much worse regret.
#15263108
XogGyux wrote:@Tainari88
In human history, what is the longest period of time that humans have gone without a dominating empire dictating the world around itself? The constant feature of human history is that there is always a regional empire that imposes its will upon the rest of humanity. A constant feature through human history is walls (to defend against invaders), weapons (to kill/invade others), rape, pillaging, war, and slavery. That is what humans do, and don't expect any changes in your lifetime, we have been doing this for ALL of recorded history (and probably much longer) and there is end in sight. As much as you might be disgusted at the US, the US has been a relatively meek empire, compared to those that came before it? Certainly. Look at the germans... the ottomans, the british, the french, portuguese, spanish? You think they were better influnece in their world as compared to the US? Hell no.
If the US was not the empire projecting power today... it could have been the USSR or perhaps China... but someone else would be projecting power, you can bet on it. My premise is that any of those alternatives are FAR worse than what we have.


Most governments today are cuco of Washington DC. Not only the associated territories such as PR, but even larger countries. Look at Mexico folding like a pretzel to accommodate the Trump-led tantrums that culminated on NAFTA renegotiations.
I might not know anything about the internal politics of PR, but I do know that a tiny island in the middle of the caribbean is never going to be truly independent. You depend on outsiders for food, energy and virtually anything else. You are essentially economically dependent. Does not matter what you want to call yourself, or how you organize your goverment or elect your leaders.... When the US asks "Puerto rico, jump" the only words coming out of PR better be "how high".

A better question is... what can "Independence" do for you. What is it that you want, or think you want, that you cannot do now that you think you should be able to do and wether independence can realistically get you closer to that goal without seriously handicapping you somewhere else.


But PR independence is not going to destroy or eliminate its powerful neighbor to the north. You will still have to deal with the US, presumably on more unfavorable terms.
What happens if the US decides it no longer wants a big portion of critical pharmaceuticals to be outsourced to an "independent" country and starts legislating rules and regulations to encourage companies to move production to the US... This is not an unreasonable case scenario... countries deem certain industries critical to their survival and pharmaceuticals might very well be one of them. Do you think PR would even survive an exodus of its largest industry? The day the US is out of PR... it will become just another Caribbean island like the rest, with only 3m people you guys are not a big market to sell anything, you are not rich to buy anything, you going to fall into deep economic disarray, I am certain of it.


Well, that is precisely my point. You shouldn't expect any improvement even if the US were to be removed from the world. If we were to snap our fingers today and make the whole US country dissapear, it wouldn't take much until the next empire is knocking down the door. Would you be more comfortable with a world led by Xi Jiping?


Again. This only proves my point. The local superpower aggressively invaded them... It was not the US that did that... And if the US did not exist, Russia, China, and perhaps India would be running rampant imposing their dominance everywhere.
The US has many, and I mean MANY, defects. But I think the US is an overall positive influence compared to an alternative without it.


That's bullshit.
The only country in the American continent that has nuclear weapons is the US... How many other countries are being at risks of a US invasion? Do you think the US will invade Canada anytime soon? Mexico? Guatemala? Venezuela? The cubans have been crying that the US want to conquest them for 70 years and the americans are not even paying attention to their cries. If the US really wanted to invade Cuba, it only needs to park any of its 10 carriers next to the island and all military assets in cuba would be blown in a matter of minutes.
This is more paranoia than a real risk. Modern western countries twists other countries with money and capital, not with weapons. Now, a world in which China or Russia are the top dogs... that world would be scary as hell.


So what? Do you realize that PR is the same shit? PR speak spanish... do you think the native tainos spoke spanish? :lol: You and I are as much a result of Spanish colonization, oppression and brutality. Again, this proves my point. This is how it has always been. This is nothing new, it will not change anytime soon. The real question, the million dollar question is... if not under this system, then which system? The alternative to a world without the US as the leading power is not some sort of idyllic utopia kumbaya of hope and happiness... It is a world of terror and despair under the opression of the next powerful country, presumably China or Russia. Your anti-americanism is blinding you to the realities of the human race.


Not "ANY" price. But it is worth more than you give it credit for.


But this is not what you want is it? To put someone in congress or the senate you need to be part of US proper... not independent. Mexico is independent and does not have senators or representatives in the US Congress.
If this is what you want, ascend to become another state in the united states, I think this is a perfectly reasonable request, possibly in the realms of possibilities and I would very much support that. I think it would be politically doable but an uphill but nothing to do with imperialistic wishes, but rather old-fashion blue/red internal politics. If puertorican wants full independence, again I am also OK with that, but I will also point out that you will more likely than not fuck the whole country 10X more than it is right now if you end up taking that route.


Again, you seem to be arguing two different points. Joining the US is diametrically opposed to becoming independent. Which one do you want?


Highly doubt it. If they overwhelmingly vote for this I highly doubt it would be as you said. If this is a very slight majority trying to impose this upon a large minority (aka 51%/49%) sort of situation, that will likely lead to unrest and possibly violence. I think you overestimate the value of PR to the US.


Don't believe me? Fine, you have the right to not believe me.


You seem to have a rather distorted view of history. The US did not go for independence because of some overwhelming desire of cultural preservation or patriotism. They did it for money, taxes money, specifically. The founder fathers, continental army... they were descendants of Europeans, they were the invaders of the land. The native americans did not have a say on american independence. Similar in cuba or mexico.


That is not what I am saying at all. Instead, what I am saying is that people should be pragmatic and play the most strategically superior hand that they can. I am skeptical that a PR "independence" is going to lead to a better living situation to puerto ricans. The independent Caribbean country-states are not doing particularly good. You are certainly never going to be economically independent... this is a geographic truth, not a political one. PR is an island, and a small island at that. Goods are more expensive in islands, economic expansion is difficult in an island. Once upon a time, Cuba and PR were strategic ports for a world mostly fashioned around the galleon... but we are not in the world anymore.


On the contrary, I am suggesting that you should avoid repeating others' mistakes.


No, XogGyux, what I am proposing is that the exploitation has to end and soon. The exploitation mentality of endless resources at some abusive governments disposal and corporations and banks and everyone with economic might and power abusing their powers. That has to end and soon. Why? I am reading a good book by Dr. Carl Sagan. What does he talk about? The many mistakes human people with power have made that is driving an extinction event created by a lack of respect for the environment we depend on. We depend on clean air, clean water and clean food to be able to have the current civilization we live in.

The idea that Puerto Rico is an island with no resources and no real economic value is a lie. It is a very big lie that has been perpetuated to keep Puerto Ricans from seeking something better for themselves.

How does one prove that? An economics expert on Puerto Rican economics called Dra. Rosario Rivera and Jesus Rivera. Otherwise known as El Boricuazo. He dedicates his life to fighting the misinformation campaign perpetrated by the ones who think islands in the Caribbean are about lack of sustainability. In fact, islands in the Caribbean are fertile places, and very autonomous. If that were not true what business did the Tainos and Carib indians of the Americas have in canoeing out there and living there for thousands of years with growth happening for centuries? Things change. History changes.

Your argument is about there is always going to be some bad people wanting shit they should not want. Just accept it. That is not true. People fight what is wrong. If they did not you would not have the Civil Rights Movement. The end of slavery. The end of wars, the growth of innovation and technology that saves lives, you don't have new evolutions in human society. Nothing is static XogGyux.

Women would still be considered property in Spain and a husband had the right to beat his wife for disobedience in the 1300s in Spain. That is GONE. It is replaced with human rights that reflect the long battles for more rights throughout human history. But it does not happen with these powerful people make decisions and the less powerful islands just got to sit on their ass and accept. That is not reality in human history. Resistance is never futile ever.

Cubans if they wanted real change? And really as a group pressured for real change in an organized manner would find real change. No matter what. The same with the Boricuas and all the rest of the nations of the world.

I do not think the USA is benevolent XogGyux. Interestingly Thurgood Marshall and many legal scholars who wrote strong dissents about the insular cases defining the USA vs. Puerto Rico relationship said very truthful things about the USA allowing partial applications of the USA constitution to remain in effect. It stated that once the law decided to violate the rights of people who were US citizens because the powers that be wanted to only obey rights that were convenient for them to obey and ignore rights that cost them money or power? The constitution would be eventually unable to stop the degradation of the entire system.

Read the second link I put in this thread regarding Wikipedia. That is what it says.

it is not an empire that is the exception XogGyux. Only people who believe the history that is full of bullshit lies believe that an accepting of violation of constitutional rights has to stand to preserve racists, elitists, and exploiters should be remain standing. Why? Because the USA is special and better than the ones who never made promises of liberal rights. What good are liberal rights if in the end they are never applied if it means you got to give up power to the ones who never respected human rights in the first place.

History does not play favorites with nations XogGyux. It is like a cold judge. It does not care about myths of greatness and hypocritical bullshit behavior. It only respects consequences. What are the consequences of creating colonies where the constitution does not apply but they want to retain control? it creates entrenched corruption that rots the entire system over time. You don't see the rot? Because the USA is the exception to the other Empires in history? Empries are about behavior. Not rhetoric. Not lip service and not false images of being better than the rest. That is chauvinism and lies. Again, the power of myth is dangerous.

The planet will respond to nukes being thrown. It will end the sunlight reaching the Earth. Species die off will happen. And the stressed systems for food and water and so on will be incredibly hard to sustain. It won't care if you are Mexican or American, Cuban or Puerto Rican. It will only care that the bomb has a consequence and the Earth is going to survive the problem. We won't. The species we are and all our struggles will not survive. Why? Because all our struggles are about letting some assholes determine what is acceptable or not and letting shit happen with NO RESISTANCE. Because the USA is special. No, they are not. All human beings are the same in terms of needs and wants and you need to realize that allowing abusers to go on without any opposition is not progressing society. it never will be progress.

This world is not about isolated pockets of people living in isolation. It is the herd. The group. Everyone is connected by travel and connections. If the pandemic taught us something true? Everyone needs to breathe and if a virus uses air to infect people? We are in deep shit with the consequences.

Allowing political abuses is allowing the destruction of democracy. You either believe in dictatorships or you don't. Dictatorships are a lot easier and far more efficient. But that kind of shit was done in the era of Kings and Queens. It created a hate for that kind of monarchical rule. So people went and came up with some kind of change of structure. We can always go back to bullshit authoritarian rulers and dictators. But it will wind up in the same position as the past.

Moving forward requires CHANGE that is wise and respectful of past mistakes. The USA has been engaged in wars for years and years. It cost a lot of money that if used for better purposes would have alleviated a lot of suffering. It wastes the resources on things that do not move the society forward. How long will the society live in denial of this reality? Because the USA is less problematic according to you than other ex Empires. All empires SUCK. They waste and they war constantly. That is what they do.

The change of behavior is the key to real change. Not talk.
#15263110
What a dirty bootlicker.

Do you enjoy the taste of boot leather Tainari? Este gringo estúpido no sabe nada. Fight for your right not to be exploited until it makes it no longer profitable to exploit you.

Enjoy your autonomy however you must earn it.

This Escarabajo pelotero talking about human history can only cite the last few thousand years of it. An overly male-dominated era that is rapidly leading to the decline of our entire world largely due to the so-called Developed World's destruction of the Indigenous One.

On the contrary young, straight Euro males simply do not have a highly advanced enough brain to comprehend interests far from their own, and the necessity of their becoming paramount, or at least prominent.

Don't waste your typing fingers on this drivel. PR could remain "poor" relative to the neoliberal economic system foisted off on it by the West, but all "poor" isn't equal and Señor Tonto above is completely unaware of the many Latin American nations who would empathize with a liberated PR.

Pretty sure you could buy super cheap Iranian and Russian oil too IF the US wouldn't dream up a provocation for bombing you for "daring to bite the hand that insists it be the only one to feed you"
#15263112
Rich wrote:America is to be greatly praised for not surrendering to the minority of Puerto Rican America haters who want to force independence on the majority of Puerto Ricans. The America haters are not able to get independence but they are able to undermine the move towards statehood. This suits the Republicans just fine, not because they're racist, but just because of politics. I'm sure if they thought that Puerto Rico would vote for Republican representatives they'd back Puerto Rican statehood.

In a way we've had an analogous situation in Britain. Here its the Europe haters, who succeeded in persuading the majority to vote to leave the EU in a referendum. Its just starting to dawn on some of the people who voted to leave what an incredibly stupid idea this was. If the independence movement in Puerto Rico is ever successful I expect there will be similar but much worse regret.


Rich, no one asked the USA to invade Puerto Rico and make the Ricans US citizens in 1917. Study history. The USA decided to make the Ricans US citizens. But? Without the same constitutional rights and guarantees. Read this:

The Supreme Court held that full constitutional protection of rights does not automatically (or ex proprio vigore—i.e., of its own force) extend to all places under American control. This meant that inhabitants of unincorporated territories such as Puerto Rico—"even if they are U.S. citizens"—may lack some constitutional rights (e.g., the right to remain part of the United States in case of de-annexation)[2] because they were not part of the United States. Today, many legal scholars such as José Julián Álvarez González, Christina Burnett, and others[3][4] refer to the Insular Cases as a constitutional justification for colonialism and annexation of places not within United States boundaries.[5] The Insular Cases "authorized the colonial regime created by Congress, which allowed the United States to continue its administration—and exploitation—of the territories acquired from Spain after the Spanish–American War."[6] These Supreme Court rulings allowed for the United States government to extend unilateral power over these newly acquired territories.

The rulings are widely considered racist.[8][9][10][11][12][13][14] The De Lima v. Bidwell ruling called the people of the insular areas "savage tribes" and "uncivilized tribes", and the ruling was made to avoid their nationalization. The Downes v. Bidwell case suggested the administration of "alien races" may be "impossible". The District Court of the Virgin Islands called out the cases' "racist doctrine" and the era's "intrinsically racist imperialism".[8]

Background


We are in 2023. It has not changed. Why? Because Puerto Ricans are happy with the situation. They are not Rich. Politics is really about circumstances and historical and economic context. Once people can not get relief no matter hat they do? You got pressure that will happen somewhere and sometime. The solution for the USA is to absorb the fallout of bad colonial policies.

The UK does this too. Thus why you got people from India, Pakistan, Hong Kong and many other ex British colonies living in the UK. Because the colonies do not provide the people who did business and who got stuck with British rule from afar any real favors. And they had to pack their bags and go and live where the money and the resources were. You want to stabilize the world? Start with being fair with other countries and their resources and people. You want to have a bunch of foreigners creating tension by not following Anglo traditions? Leave the countries you fuck with alone. Lol. But no....you like the resources, you like the land to go and jump and run and put soldiers on, but you don't want to deal with poverty, chaos and human suffering from exploitation and shit behaviors that Empries engage in.

Again Rich? Where are the super wealthy English average folks? Where did the wealth go from centuries of ruling foreign lands? Where is the money? :D
#15263113
Morgan Le Fey wrote:What a dirty bootlicker.

Do you enjoy the taste of boot leather Tainari? Este gringo estúpido no sabe nada. Fight for your right not to be exploited until it makes it no longer profitable to exploit you.

Enjoy your autonomy however you must earn it.

This Escarabajo pelotero talking about human history can only cite the last few thousand years of it. An overly male-dominated era that is rapidly leading to the decline of our entire world largely due to the so-called Developed World's destruction of the Indigenous One.

On the contrary young, straight Euro males simply do not have a highly advanced enough brain to comprehend interests far from their own, and the necessity of their becoming paramount, or at least prominent.

Don't waste your typing fingers on this drivel. PR could remain "poor" relative to the neoliberal economic system foisted off on it by the West, but all "poor" isn't equal and Señor Tonto above is completely unaware of the many Latin American nations who would empathize with a liberated PR.

Pretty sure you could buy super cheap Iranian and Russian oil too IF the US wouldn't dream up a provocation for bombing you for "daring to bite the hand that insists it be the only one to feed you"


Morgan, the statehood movement has a bunch of bad leadership in the positions of bootlicking. Bootlickers never make things happen in the world. In order to become a state? The statehooders got to pressure both the Republicans and the Democrats. And they can't do it. Why? Because if you are a bootlicker you have to respect their power over your life. I am sure many people who lived with slavery thought it would never end and that the best course of action is to negotiate with the Massa as best as you knew how. And to just care about your own self.

The reality is that people are not dumb really. If they know that in order to survive they got to change their circumstance or perish, they will find the strength to do so.

Again, the independence movement is growing. Simply because the system is not providing minimal basic services. It is not functional. And no matter how many lies people in the DC scene and the media come up with? The truth is a hard taskmaster. Unemployment and unfavorable conditions. The only ones doing well are not Puerto Ricans and are not contributing and are a pain in the ass and are creating problems for survival? People then get the impulse movement to change their own lives. That is true for everyone in political life.
#15263121
PR should just decide itself via a referendum. The problem is what to do if enough people won't show up to vote. Make one choice the default by vote of legislature and then conduct a referendum and if enough people don't show up then default will kick in. The referendum might have even 3 choices to keep things the same but I am not sure about it.
#15263122
Tainari88 wrote:No, XogGyux, what I am proposing is that the exploitation has to end and soon.

Well, we can always dream, but that is what it is, a dream. Humans exploiting other humans have been a constant throughout history, there is no reason to believe there is going to be any major changes to that constant anytime in sight.
As much as it might pain you to hear it, much more to accept it, compared to the alternatives, the US has been a relatively positive force in the world. Certainly better than any of the empires that came before it. Do you deny it? Do you think we would have been better off during Ottoman ruling or perhaps British ruling? Or perhaps the Spanish? or the Portuguese? Do you think the world would be better off as a USSR mega power? Or China? I know what you want... that has not existed in human history, there is nothing to indicate we will get it anytime soon. We have to deal in real terms. Don't allow perfection be the enemy of good.

Why? I am reading a good book by Dr. Carl Sagan. What does he talk about? The many mistakes human people with power have made that is driving an extinction event created by a lack of respect for the environment we depend on. We depend on clean air, clean water and clean food to be able to have the current civilization we live in.

And it might very well come to this. We might have to bring ourselves to the brink of extinction to snap out of the vicious cycle. Or perhaps we might get there and just go extinct. Perhaps we are not worth saving. Listen, I don't disagree with you on ethical or moral grounds, I think you are absolutely correct. I am just bringing a little ray of realism into the utopia that you want to have, but you cannot have. You are better off slowly shaping a good enough system, than to hope for a change that is never going to come, and if it does come it will simply disastrous to your country. There is no version of reality that I can imagine in which PR achieves both independence and improves its socioeconomic/political status in the world. I don't think it is impossible for you to achieve political independence, but I know for sure you will never achieve economical independence, and I am skeptical that you could achieve an improved economical stance under a politically independent PR.

The idea that Puerto Rico is an island with no resources and no real economic value is a lie. It is a very big lie that has been perpetuated to keep Puerto Ricans from seeking something better for themselves.

That is not remotely what I said. What I said is that PR cannot possibly be economically independent. You are dependent on external energy sources and food. PR is 1 blockade away from a mass-energy crisis and famine. Have you mapped out how is it that PR will become independent? You wanting PR to nationalize industries as well?

Things change. History changes.

Humans exploiting other humans haven't.

Your argument is about there is always going to be some bad people wanting shit they should not want. Just accept it. That is not true. People fight what is wrong.

Very noble of you. Look around the other caribbean nations and tell me which one do you want to have PR be as good as and then we can talk.

Cubans if they wanted real change?

They did, and they got real change. They must be really happy right about now, correct?


I do not think the USA is benevolent XogGyux.

Neither do I. But amongst the other players? The USA is the lesser of the evils by a mile. Again, you are not being given the option of a world without empires. The world we have has empires and has always had them. The only variable is how strong and how vicious they are. In that regard, the US is amongst the better ones. You want to throw your luck with the alternatives? I wish you luck, you will need it.

Moving forward requires CHANGE that is wise and respectful of past mistakes.

Change for the sake of change is just idiotic. You want improvement and the way to achieve improvement is to identify the things that need to be improved and to use the method that will get you the desired improvement with the least risk and/or sacrifize of your part.
Take a look at the independent caribbean countries and tell me, which one do you think has a better future, a better footing in the world as compared to your home country. Dominican Republic? Jamaica? Cuba?
Jamaica is a similar country in terms of area and population (about 10k Km2 and ~3m population, similar to puerto rico)... it has 1/3rd the GDP of PR. If you think conditions are bad right now economically, rest assure it can get much, much worse. You want to improve your country, thats great... but are you CERTAIN, that the change that you are suggesting will have the impact and result that you think it will? Perhaps the success of your country is not at all tied to its independence. I wonder if you have even considered this as a posibility.

All empires SUCK. They waste and they war constantly. That is what they do.

They do. But until such time as humanity can come up with another system... and It won't for centuries, this is what we have. If it is any consolation, things have gotten better. In prior history, empires used to spend far more $$ as a percentage of GDP in military and wars. The US spends alot and it is like 3%, in the past it would have been as much as 30%... As much as you would complaint about all of this, this represents a MASSIVE improvement in historical terms. The US is the lesser of the evils.

How does one prove that? An economics expert on Puerto Rican economics called Dra. Rosario Rivera and Jesus Rivera. Otherwise known as El Boricuazo. He dedicates his life to fighting the misinformation campaign perpetrated by the ones who think islands in the Caribbean are about lack of sustainability. In fact, islands in the Caribbean are fertile places, and very autonomous. If that were not true what business did the Tainos and Carib indians of the Americas have in canoeing out there and living there for thousands of years with growth happening for centuries? Things change. History changes.

This is bullshit. How many tainos lived in Puerto Rico? 50k? There are 3 million puerto ricans. The island that allows 50k tainos live a live of hunter-gatherer and rudimentary agriculture cannot sustain 3 million inhabitants living a modern industrialized life. If your idea of "change" involves the de-civilization of puertorico to a pre-industrial way of living... then we cannot have a discussion because I don't see that as a favorable outcome for the people of PR.
#15263300
XogGyux wrote:Well, we can always dream, but that is what it is, a dream. Humans exploiting other humans have been a constant throughout history, there is no reason to believe there is going to be any major changes to that constant anytime in sight.
As much as it might pain you to hear it, much more to accept it, compared to the alternatives, the US has been a relatively positive force in the world. Certainly better than any of the empires that came before it. Do you deny it? Do you think we would have been better off during Ottoman ruling or perhaps British ruling? Or perhaps the Spanish? or the Portuguese? Do you think the world would be better off as a USSR mega power? Or China? I know what you want... that has not existed in human history, there is nothing to indicate we will get it anytime soon. We have to deal in real terms. Don't allow perfection be the enemy of good.

XogGyux, human exploitation is a choice. It is not an imperative or necessary. You study human history and there are all kinds of ways of organizing human labor and human social and economic life in a way that is not about exploitation but about community and love of extended family and shared values. You have slavery true. But there came a time where it was no longer a sustainable economic model. Wage slavery is another one that had to go in many societies. With large gaps in income inequality and changes in technology and in circumstances UBI and other platforms will become the norm. Over time nothing remains static. But it requires not being accepting of exploitation as a permanent reality forever and ever amen. All positive changes require work and sacrifice, responsibility and activism. That is history and that is what human life is about. Not accepting shit for all time as the norm. Real terms is not using threats of bombs and invasions as the ONLY way to control human relationships. That is foolish. Fear forever is not the way. Using violence and threats like Empires always do throughout human history is a sign of a very primitive reptilian society XogGyux. It is not a sign of an advanced human civilization. We need to grow into our technology for good. Not for global destruction. That is not perfection. That is survival. Got to grow mature enough to not use violence and WMDs to get other nations to cooperate for mutual benefit. If we get stuck with Caribbean islands are poor and always will be playthings of Empires so just give it up. It is defeatist and also inaccurate. You obviously never studied the Caribbean region's economists and experts on sustainable development. You can have a very well-balanced economy, society, growth, and opportunities. But it can't be with embargos, punishments from greater powers, and debt servitude choking the GDP of entire nations to the point of creating massive recessions. Just so banks can retain absolute control over dozens of countries that are dependent on the World Bank or international banking cartels that suck nations dry of any available wealth to serve the needs of a tiny percentage of over-bloated investors. It is crazy to think that is going to lead to peace and development. It never does.

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And it might very well come to this. We might have to bring ourselves to the brink of extinction to snap out of the vicious cycle. Or perhaps we might get there and just go extinct. Perhaps we are not worth saving. Listen, I don't disagree with you on ethical or moral grounds, I think you are absolutely correct. I am just bringing a little ray of realism into the utopia that you want to have, but you cannot have. You are better off slowly shaping a good enough system, than to hope for a change that is never going to come, and if it does come it will simply disastrous to your country. There is no version of reality that I can imagine in which PR achieves both independence and improves its socioeconomic/political status in the world. I don't think it is impossible for you to achieve political independence, but I know for sure you will never achieve economical independence, and I am skeptical that you could achieve an improved economical stance under a politically independent PR.
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No XogGyux I have real hope in the intelligence of human adaptive abilities. And also if you cull the knowledge of the tropical regions of the world and the riches in plant life, animal life, water resources, and fertile earth, and so on? It is a region that is incredibly productive and that has innate wealth. What other reason was there for so many European powers to be fighting over those little islands for centuries if they were worthless pieces of land? We speak in the Caribbean islands Spanish, English, Portuguese, French, Patois, Creole, Dutch, and a mixture of many tongues for what purpose? The crowns of Europe fought over those places for sugar, coffee, tobacco, fruit, corn, fish, gold, silver, and bauxite for aluminium, nickel, copper and every tropical drug-producing plant for good and bad is there as well. The sea is full of great resources. Puerto Rico is forced into importing 85% of its food. It is forced to pay for the highest tariffs and so on due to the American Merchant Marine system as the exclusive system for Puerto Rico. It is the most expensive system in the world. We are not allowed to do business with any other system. As an independent nation, you can negotiate better trading terms, and better costs, but if the USA decides to block you because they want to control your economy exclusively to serve their own interests the wealth flies out the door of your country. Abusing power is the issue. Not if there are no resources. Human consumption creates wealth so do human labor and production. But if a skewed system favors the ones with the power to impose and not the ones on the receiving end of the abuse? You got issues. You got to end exploitation to see real improvement. That is the main problem. Not that the islands have NOTHING of worth. That argument is not sound. It never has been.
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That is not remotely what I said. What I said is that PR cannot possibly be economically independent. You are dependent on external energy sources and food. PR is 1 blockade away from a mass-energy crisis and famine. Have you mapped out how is it that PR will become independent? You wanting PR to nationalize industries as well?
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XogGyux you never studied at all the many many proposals that the Puerto Rican Independence Party has introduced in the Puerto Rican legislature. In fact, their proposals are the only ones that wind up working for Puerto Rico on a local level. Dependency on the DC crowd federal fund transfers never pan out to work correctly for any kind of improvement. In fact, closing schools by the hundreds and laying off a massive amount of workers in Puerto Rico is what the PNP or Puerto Rican statehood party people propose. It sucks. It only favors some disaster capitalists and corporate vultures who want to pay zero taxes and not employ any real workers in PR. See Naomi Klein's book Battle for Paradise about the shock doctrine. How the financial investors and etc come in and take advantage of post-hurricane societies in crisis to make money and take over everything to privatize and monopolize to the point of lack of affordability for everyone. It causes a mass exodus to the states. If you need fifty pages on how to create a sustainable economy in the tropics that are proven successes all over the world I can list them here. Would you like that? I am willing to do it. I got houseguests but I can come back to this thread and drop tons of proven programs that work for transforming Caribbean island economies. The problem is always fighting Empires that need extraction economies to serve their neverending appetite for war economies and banking monopolies and to prop up their positions in the world. If you have a lack of respectful cooperation between nations and instead have endless exploitation and competition and war and lies about being the superior group through bad campaigns full of shit? You impede all solution-based proposals. Forever. The block is there. It is. Plus elite sellout politicians in power positions all over the world in every nation. Sellouts are a serious problem.
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Humans exploiting other humans haven't.
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XogGyux, it is easy to think humans will always be exploiters for all time and that it is impossible to end that system. But if you study human history it bends in favor of less exploitation over time. As human society finds new ways of negotiating labor, resources, and technology. While there is an investment in education, time, and better consciousness you find improvement. But it requires work and not believing that everything is about giving in to those in power at the time. Got to fight the power that impedes the progress of human society for cooperation and real equality. If you believe in imperial stuff as never-ending? You have zero energy to dedicate to changing it. That is reality. You got to dream big. But more than that you got to be pragmatic. If something does not function well, you modify or change it until it works. You do not accept the previous dysfunction as a permanent fixture in the world. That is never a real answer to human problems. Ever.
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Very noble of you. Look around the other Caribbean nations and tell me which one do you want to have PR be as good as and then we can talk.
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Puerto Rico is not the island with the highest per capita earning in Latin America or the Caribbean region. I studied the islands of the Caribbean. I suggest you read Eric Williams book From Columbus to Castro the history of the Caribbean Islands. On one island you got Haiti which is very poor and the Dominican Republic which is a lot wealthier. It is about how you set up an economy and how you cope with the wealth and political structure you have. Also, who interferes in the development of those places and why do they interfere? Study it. Singapore is an island. With huge imports. But the way they set up their society is to create stability and also wealth. Education is key, diversity is key, and being able to be independent and negotiate is key there. Why are some small nations incredibly well off and others are poor? I liked studying that. You should too. If you are serious about Cuba and its future, you should study which way can Cuba climb out of poverty as well as Latin America. I do not believe in accepting the abuses of French colonialism, English colonialism, Spanish colonialism, Dutch colonialism, etc. Just accept it. It is useless. We are dunces and have zero intelligence. That shit is for people with no sense of the greatest qualities of human beings and their stories on Earth. It just is not true XogGyux.
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They did, and they got real change. They must be really happy right about now, correct?
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XogGyux, you get the change that is often good and sometimes very bad. But all of human history is about trade-offs and trial and error problems. But when the historical timing is right and the effort is sincere and the cooperation is efficient and consistent? You bet you get real change. Jim Crow crap died. The law was effective in eliminating it. Can it come back? Yes, if you get retrograde leadership and enough racists in positions of power. But that goes for all bad laws and bad policies. It is a constant ebb and flow of successes and failures. Often failures teach you more about life and human society than successes do. Failure is often the best mother of invention in human history.
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Neither do I. But amongst the other players? The USA is the lesser of the evils by a mile. Again, you are not being given the option of a world without empires. The world we have has empires and has always had them. The only variable is how strong and how vicious they are. In that regard, the US is amongst the better ones. You want to throw your luck with the alternatives? I wish you luck, you will need it.
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I do not think level of viciousness is to be measured by your point of view. That varies according to the victims who had suffered the viciousness. Like Native American tribes wiped off the face of the USA forever. Or Japanese pregnant women or old men and children dying after the atomic bomb was thrown in WWII to end the war via the USA making it clear it was willing to keep it up until surrender was done. Were they cruel? Vicious? The Nazis were vicious. Israel now is accused of being vicious with Palestineans. Humanity can be cruel and vicious. But I do not believe that the USA is better because of what? It does not have the problems of the other Empires. The consequences of empire building and what that implies is the SAME for all human societies throughout human history. Waste, wars, and elites benefitted from it but not the majority of the ones in the empire. Ordinary people never benefit in any real way unless they fight for some rights and force the issue. They must organize and pressure for rights. It is never ceded from the ones who never find sharing wealth or rights a good thing. Lol. That is the reality of political and economic development. The lack of studying the struggles of human societies is for the ones believing in myth. Don't believe in myth XogGyux. Believe in science, math, and deep investigation into what works overtime to improve human life. Not in what is told to you as truth. Never accept conventional shit as the only source of information. Look for scientific analysis and real evidence for action. As a doctor that should be easy for you. If you did that? You would not be thinking Empires are permanent fixtures in human life. They won't be because they are inefficient in the end. They waste, they war and they strip their resources and the people stop believing in the myth because they cause mass destruction they are abandoned by the people who used to worship them. Lol. That is the reality.

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Change for the sake of change is just idiotic. You want improvement and the way to achieve improvement is to identify the things that need to be improved and to use the method that will get you the desired improvement with the least risk and/or sacrifize of your part.
Take a look at the independent caribbean countries and tell me, which one do you think has a better future, a better footing in the world as compared to your home country. Dominican Republic? Jamaica? Cuba?
Jamaica is a similar country in terms of area and population (about 10k Km2 and ~3m population, similar to puerto rico)... it has 1/3rd the GDP of PR. If you think conditions are bad right now economically, rest assure it can get much, much worse. You want to improve your country, thats great... but are you CERTAIN, that the change that you are suggesting will have the impact and result that you think it will? Perhaps the success of your country is not at all tied to its independence. I wonder if you have even considered this as a posibility.
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XogGyux, I studied every colonized nation on Earth. None of them make any progress at all until they advocate for independence or they become part of the Colonizer. If they become part of the colonizer? The native people of that land become minorities in their old land base and they stop speaking their ancient languages and adopt the languages of the colonizer. The new groups with power then IMPOSE their will, their power and their interests on the natives and the natives wind up losing it all. Culture, history, land, wealth and social positions. Do you honestly think the most powerful ethnic groups in Alaska and Hawaii, New Mexico and Texas and so on? Are Comanches, Eskimos, Hawaiians, Jicarilla Apaches and etc? They are conquered people often living in poverty and without any real power in a land that is not ruled by them any longer. That is what conquest is about. Imperial policy is about conquest. It always has been.

They do. But until such time as humanity can come up with another system... and It won't for centuries, this is what we have. If it is any consolation, things have gotten better. In prior history, empires used to spend far more $$ as a percentage of GDP in military and wars. The US spends alot and it is like 3%, in the past it would have been as much as 30%... As much as you would complaint about all of this, this represents a MASSIVE improvement in historical terms. The US is the lesser of the evils.

XogGyux, wars are very expensive things. The defense budget is a substantial part of all taxes collected. So is wasteful policies done by sellout politicians. That is not controversial at all. Countries that save money on not spending on wars might lose money to corrupt elitists but in the end? Nonstop wars will create poverty in an Empire. That is guaranteed. Hell there are people with theories about the Roman Catholic Spanish King and Queen Ferdinand and Isabel of Spain in 1492 having to go look for gold and so on or spice trade in India and China in order to recover from eight centuries of war with the Muslims in Southern Spain. War is expensive. Lol.
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This is bullshit. How many tainos lived in Puerto Rico? 50k? There are 3 million puerto ricans. The island that allows 50k tainos live a live of hunter-gatherer and rudimentary agriculture cannot sustain 3 million inhabitants living a modern industrialized life. If your idea of "change" involves the de-civilization of puertorico to a pre-industrial way of living... then we cannot have a discussion because I don't see that as a favorable outcome for the people of PR.


No, XogGyux you don't understand what I was trying to convey. That land is livable and very livable. It does not have a real winter. No need to store for winter food. It is fertile and the lifestyle is fairly easy compared to Alaska for example. You can eat year round with minimal efforts on planting and harvesting and the protein or fish catching was fairly easy. Water supplies were easy. No real big predators either. It was easy to do sustainable food and water, shelter and basic needs. Part of the problem in Puerto Rico as in with other land bases with the tropics as the norm? Are the growth of modern medicine and the survival of many more infants. Population growth happened. A need to also produce more food and more goods and services. but if you study how modern societies coped with an increased need for more food, medicine, development to keep up with demand? It is about planning, technology and import and exports. People trade in mass waves. The USA gave up its manufacturing base to the PRC. Why? For capitalist industries to get lower labor costs and to have higher profit margins. Was that the smartest move in the long run? Probably not. You got to consider that the PRC is very far away and if you have a break in the supply chain issue? You got scarcity and lack of access that a local plant or plan would have been more efficient. For small countries there are within modern models many many options to explore. But they require a commitment to independence first, and to respecting non interference and fair trade practices and fair politics and policies. If you accept might is right and abuse is the norm? You never get improvement. That is reality.
#15263322
Tainari88 wrote:XogGyux, human exploitation is a choice. It is not an imperative or necessary.

That's a good theory, but so far, human history has not supported this theory. As far as human has had a recorded history, the opposite has been observed. You cannot design a system to tailor the best human being... you have to design a system that accommodates for the most greedy and most violent of us as well. As far as history of human race goes, the period under the "leadership" of the US has been an upgrade compared to the prior options. You might not like it, but it is the reality.

You study human history and there are all kinds of ways of organizing human labor and human social and economic life in a way that is not about exploitation but about community and love of extended family and shared values.

Bullshit. There is no instance in human history that compares favorably vs what we have currently. For most of human history we have had actual slaves... how can you possibly even suggest that the history of human shows less exploitation.

You have slavery true.

Oh, there you go. Exactly. I answered your prior point before reading this :lol: conversation style.

Wage slavery is another one that had to go in many societies.

Not saying it is ethical, or moral, but even that is a massive upgrade vs actual slavery. When your shit salary factory worker quits... you don't send dogs after him or her and then whip their back until they are moribund or dead. The current bottom-salary worker at least have a way out of the vicious cycle. Not saying it is an easy way out or that it is fair or good... but it is an improvement as compared to what used to be the norm for millennia of human history.

With large gaps in income inequality and changes in technology and in circumstances UBI and other platforms will become the norm.

Maybe... but which countries are even entertaining such social upgrades? It is not fascist China... it is not oligarchic russia, it was not the former USSR... those systems are being explored by mainly western, mostly capitalistic (with social tones) countries. So... you prove my point.

But it requires not being accepting of exploitation as a permanent reality forever and ever amen.

You are confusing an acceptance of reality with a rejection of the desire to make improvements. I agree we need to improve our systems... but we have to improve the good ones... not the failed ones. Maybe you don't want to improve upon already existing systems... maybe you want a shock/reset and create something from scratch. That sort of change = misery and death to hundreds of thousands of millions of people if not billion of people. Destroying the current capitalistic-leaning world order to create something from scratch = conflict, wars, famine, deaths. I am sorry, I am not interested in watching that circus carnage. You want to improve our systems in a diplomatic, constructive (and slow), way? I am all ears... you want to shoot the lion on the face and see what happens next? I am not interested.

All positive changes require work and sacrifice, responsibility and activism.

That belongs on a motivational poster on top of the teacher's blackboard in a primary school classroom. Have you thought that sacrifice could also mean sacrificing PR's independence? Or Sacrificing your ideals?
I am an extremely liberal person and I stand by my record in this forum for very pro-social policies and progressivism. But I have to routinely sacrifice what could be in a perfect world... for what can actually occur in our real world. I am sorry, but we are constrained by the bounds of our reality.

Real terms is not using threats of bombs and invasions as the ONLY way to control human relationships.

Have you met human beings? People get into rage road and kill each other... not just in the US... EVERYWHERE. Jelous husbands kill their wives when they think they are cheating on them (even when sometimes they aren't), fathers that rape their kids or sell them to marry them off.. or sometimes if a baby daughter is born they kill them or abandon them. Humans are not some sort of angelic beings. Wake up. We are vicious animals in the wild and the only thing keeping us from going into the road biting other humans being is the civilizing nature of our societies. This is a WORK IN PROGRESS. We are getting better... but emphasis on getting, and emphasis on better. If you wish to remain sane (and alive), I advise you to accept reality as it is.

Fear forever is not the way.

There is no option. The world is scary. Fear protects you. You cannot ignore it, you cannot become numb to it. Fear exists so that we can act to save ourselves. The fearless mostly end up dead.

Using violence and threats like Empires always do throughout human history is a sign of a very primitive reptilian society XogGyux.

Don't be foolish, there are no reptilian societies :lol: .
This is our reality if you don't make a system that takes into account our nature... you are guaranteed to fail.

It is not a sign of an advanced human civilization

Who said anything about advanced?
We are essentially the same Duffus that built the pyramids... As a species, we are very young, and our collective human recorded history is nothing but a blink of an eye compared to the totality of our species walking the earth. Humans have been around ~2million years.. of that, about 5 thousands make up recorded history. Our recorded history is less than 0.3% of our total existence, and for ALL of that recorded history we have behaved as total fiery savages. Again... we are not angelic beings, we are wild animals. You cannot design a system of perfect harmony. If you put cattle and tiger together, you going to have dead cattle. You cannot will human peace and prosperity out of a deep desire for harmony. I wish you could, but you cannot.

We need to grow into our technology for good.

Agreed.

Got to grow mature enough to not use violence and WMDs to get other nations to cooperate for mutual benefit.

Again. You can wish for it. But I guarantee you, you will not get it. Not during your lifetime, not in my lifetime. Not in your children's lifetime.

If we get stuck with Caribbean islands are poor and always will be playthings of Empires so just give it up. It is defeatist and also inaccurate.

Who said anything about giving up? Play to your strengths. You have to be strategic and cunning about it. Sometimes, that means admitting that you have to play the losing hand a few times.

No XogGyux I have real hope in the intelligence of human adaptive abilities.

So do I. But I am realistic about my expectations. In the last 5000 years we have always had at least 1 empire, war has been constant and so have famine and diseases. Most of the improvements for all of those things have actually occurred during the last century... A century that has been dominated by the world order of western/US-lead countries.
But make no mistake, we are the same beasts. You are dealing with a very fragile balance.

And also if you cull the knowledge of the tropical regions of the world and the riches in plant life, animal life, water resources, and fertile earth, and so on? It is a region that is incredibly productive and that has innate wealth.

Really? Why is it that puerto rico imports 85% of all its food?
This is nonsense @Tainari88 . If puerto rico was 100% farm land, no residential houses, no parking lots, no roads, no rivers, no mountains, no beaches... if puerto rico was 100% farmland, it wouldn't still be able to feed its 3 million people. As 3 million people require a bit over 10squared kilometers worth of farmland and puerto rico is a bit smaller than that.
Puerto rico cannot sustain its own population with domestically produced food. Not even Cuba supports its population with domestically grown food. Did you know that despite the nonsense that cuban goverment (and some of our own PoFos members) say, a significant portion of Cuba's food is imported from the US?
And who is the largest exporter of food in the world? Oh, btw it is the united states.
In this half of the globe, Only the US, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay are net exporters of food. Hypothetically, if Puerto Rico were to become independent of the US... if that independence is not obtained 100% under amicable and peaceful terms... there is no version of the aftermath in which puerto rico does not suffer mass famine as they have to source food from farther countries at much higher prices.
Then there is energy... 97% of puerto rico's electricity comes from fossil fuels. PR has no natural gas, no petroleum or coal production in the island. Except for about 3% of renewables, everything else is imported.
PR cannot possibly be economically independent.
You want political independence? That is not impossible. You might get that. Maybe even by peaceful means without any military intervention by the US, without any shot fired, and with post-separation amicable terms. That would be the best (although unlikely) case scenario... and even then, you'd still be at the mercy of the US because you are utterly and inseparably economically dependent of your bigger neightboor. Geography is a bitch, but at least San Juan is not in the Siberian tundra. Do you think you will have a "happily ever after"? Think again. Look at the chaos that is going on on Britain with bretxit... now multiply that by 1000x and that might give you an idea of how bad it will be for PR.
I believe strategically speaking, the best move is to become an official state. But that is just my craziness talking.

What other reason was there for so many European powers to be fighting over those little islands for centuries if they were worthless pieces of land?

Just because other people cared for that at some point in the past, does not mean that they are still equally valuable in the future. The past and the future are different. The past was pre-industrial, the present is not. Large productive farmlands and peasants/workers/slaves to work those lands were valuable in the past. Today you can buy cheap land in the midwest and with tractors and other modern farm equipment you can get many orders of magnitude more output.
An excellent example of of the difference of valuation of the past vs the present = the trade of spices and dyes. Pepper, oregano, cumin, curry, paprika, nutmeg, etc... your average contemporary kitchen stock of spices would probably fetch you a few horses. Times change. Puerto rico is just not as valuable as it was during colonial times. Puerto rico actually cost the federal goverment more than it collects in taxes. In other words, the US is not draining resources form the island, if anything it is spending resources on it.

Puerto Rico is forced into importing 85% of its food.

Yeah, it is forced by mathematics, physics, and reality. There is simply not enough farmland and resources in the island to feed such large population.

It is the most expensive system in the world. We are not allowed to do business with any other system. As an independent nation, you can negotiate better trading terms, and better costs, but if the USA decides to block you because they want to control your economy exclusively to serve their own interests the wealth flies out the door of your country

Highly doubtful. The US produces remarkably cheap food given the advanced farm equipment and very large/fertile amounts of land in the midwest. In the western hemisphere, the only other realistic option that PR has other than the US is Canada. The US even exports food to Cuba :lol: .

Abusing power is the issue.

Abusing or leveraging. Tomayto/tomahto. End result is that there is no version of the story in which PR is economically independent. A tiny island next to the behemonth of an economy that is the US is nothing but a skin tag. Best case scenario, your interests align and you both prosper. But you don't really have a realistic chance at putting any sort of pressure, negotiation, leverage, anything... Your independence is completely inconsequential to the US's future. It could, however, completely ruin your country, forever.

Not that the islands have NOTHING of worth. That argument is not sound.

That is not what I have said. But PR's current worth is tied to its fate as a US territory. A lot of that worth can (and likely will) be lost in a scenario in which PR becomes independent. It would not be unreasonable, or evil if the US wanted to move productions of its pharmaceutical to a domestic market. Lots of countries want their strategic consumption to be done domestically. That would ruin PR in a heart beat, it is a realistic scenario.
Look at what is going on in Brexit. As long as they were married with the US... thing were going smoothly... now they are having issues. You don't think the same thing would happen in your country? Which is many orders of magnitude more dependent in the US as britain was on the EU? Don't be naive. A PR independence = economic and social collapse of the island. Even in the best-case scenario with the amicable dissolution of US/PR relationships.

XogGyux you never studied at all the many many proposals that the Puerto Rican Independence Party has introduced in the Puerto Rican legislature.

That's true. But honestly, I don't trust any legislator. Not puerto rican ones, not US ones, no europeans ones. They always lie and sell you the story. What did the UK legislator said about bretxit? :lol: There is no version of this story that PR comes out unharmed for decades to come.

XogGyux, it is easy to think humans will always be exploiters for all time and that it is impossible to end that system.

I don't say always. I certainly hope not. But we have 5k history of the same tune, there is no reason to believe we are about to change instrument. We will be hearing the same music for many decades, and likely centuries, to come.

But if you study human history it bends in favor of less exploitation over time.

Sure. That is what I have said. The trend is improving, and you should be grateful for those that have contributed to such trend. Like it or not, the US has contributed significantly. We still have a long, LONG, way to go. But hey, incremental improvements is better than no-improvement. All I am saying, if I were you, I would be proud to be an American as you are Puerto Rican. I think it is a good thing.

If you believe in imperial stuff as never-ending? You have zero energy to dedicate to changing it.

I don't see it that way. But the change will be incremental, not dramatic. I think you are a very idealistic person. Pure good intentions, but uncompromising. Idealistic people, even when we agree on almost anything, scare me, because idealistic people are willing to sink the boat and drawn everyone. Idealistic people that didn't vote for Clinton helped Trump get elected. Idealistic people that want solar/wind and are uncompromising on nuclear will quite literally burn the planet. Independence or bust on PR may end up with bust and a failed state.

You got to dream big.

But then you have to wake up in the morning, get out of bed and go to work or you will die in your dream. :excited:

But more than that you got to be pragmatic.

I honestly think I am the pragmatic one in this discussion.

If something does not function well, you modify or change it until it works. You do not accept the previous dysfunction as a permanent fixture in the world.

Well, I think PR formally joining the Union would be great. That is change. Do you agree? :lol:

Puerto Rico is not the island with the highest per capita earning in Latin America or the Caribbean region.

Let's compare apples to apple. Will not include all of latin america because island economies are different than mainland economies. Goods are more expensive on islands. Shipping something to Hawaii or Alaska (alaska is essentially an island from the US mainland and behaves very similarly) is far more expensive.

Lets list the independent caribbean nations (I will list in order of independence date as found on this website):
http://www.caribbeanelections.com/educa ... 0in%201983.
Haiti: GDP/Capita 1.8k/capita (more than 15 times lower than puerto rico)
Dominican Republic GDP/Capita ~8k/capita (or about 4x lower than puerto rico)
Cuba GDP/Capita ~10k (3x lower than puerto rico)
Jamaica 5k/capita (6x less than puerto rico)
Trinidad and Tobago 16k (about half compared to puerto rico)
Guyana is in the list but it is not an island, but anyway, even if we include it 10k/capita (1/3rd of puerto rico)
Barbados (17k/capita, about half of puerto rico)
The bahamas (27k/capita) this is 85% of Puerto Rico's
Dominica 7k (about 1/5th of puerto rico)
Again, Suriname is in this list, but it is not an island. Even if we were to count it 7k (or about 1/5th) of puerto rico.
Saint Lucia 9k (1/3rd of puerto rico's)
St. Vincent and the Grenadines ~9k/capita (1/3rd of puerto rico's)
Belize 6k (1/5th of puerto rico's)
Antigua and Barbuda 15k or about half of puerto rico
St. Kitts and Nevis 18k or about a bit more than half of puerto rico.

For reference, PR sits at about 32k/capita. Do you see any other caribbean (INDEPENDENT) island that you want PR to follow in that list? You want to be like Cuba? or Jamaica? Or Haiti? or perhaps you want to be like Dominica?

Yeah... there are rich as fuck islands in the caribbean. Bermuda? British territory. Cayman Islands? British territory, US virgin islands? US territory, British virgin islands? British territory.

PR is not on a particularly bad economic scenario, all caribbeans islands are kind of sucky, and the ones that are doing OKish are heavily dependent on tourism and banking hackery.

I am sorry, but PR has not been blessed with a strong geographic leverage for this era. PR could have been incredibly important for the spaniards of 2 centuries ago... but that was 2 centuries ago. In the modern word... PR is just a piece of land in the middle of the ocean.

You bet you get real change.

That belongs on a car bumper sticker. I want improvement. Change can be for the better, but it can be for the worse. When you are a small island in the middle of the caribbean that nobody has a reason to care for... change is more likely to move in the direction of the worse. You want to take your chances?

I do not think level of viciousness is to be measured by your point of view. That varies according to the victims who had suffered the viciousness. Like Native American tribes wiped off the face of the USA forever. Or Japanese pregnant women or old men and children dying after the atomic bomb was thrown in WWII to end the war via the USA making it clear it was willing to keep it up until surrender was done. Were they cruel? Vicious? The Nazis were vicious.

And if you are going to judge everyone for everything their ancestors ever did... we all belong in hell. The native american regularly war each other and the Japanese bombed Americans as well. Pound per pound, the US has been an improvement on this vicious world.

Humanity can be cruel and vicious.

That is my point!

But I do not believe that the USA is better because of what?

Well, here we totally disagree. Tell me, which empire do you prefer. None is not an option, it has never been in human history, there is no reason to believe it will ever be. If you could give the military and economic might of the US to any other would-be empire of history... which one did you give it to? Would you be OK with the imperial british to have nuclear bombs? Or perhaps imperial japan... do you think they would have been wiser world leaders? Perhaps the Ottomas... I am sure the ottomans with nukes would have been very peaceful and respectful of their neightbors right? Or perhaps the USSR, perhaps you wanted the world under USSR ruling? Or perhaps the chinese? Or perhaps colonial spain? Or the mongols? You want Genghis Khan with the nuclear codes and the command of the US navy with its 10 aircraft carrier groups? Do you think a modern Genghis Khan would have been more peaceful?
I am convinced that despite its many defects, the US is generally a positive force in our chaotic world. Despite all the bad press, the US is far less belicose than all prior empires that came before it and has shown a high degree of retrain compared with what it can do.

Ordinary people never benefit in any real way unless they fight for some rights and force the issue.

Ordinary people do benefit. All americans benefits? What are you talking about?

You would not be thinking Empires are permanent fixtures in human life.

Well. So far, they have been. From the egyptians, to the romans, to the bizantines, russians, britsh, spanish, Portuguese, mongolian, mayan, incan, ottoman, american. There is absolutely no reason to assume they will go away anytime soon.

The native people of that land become minorities in their old land base and they stop speaking their ancient languages and adopt the languages of the colonizer.

Who care if you speak a new language. How many are suffering because we don't speak latin or sumerian? That is superflous. That is tribalism speaking. I certainly don't condone violence, but I have no problem what so ever with culture merging and extinction of ancient cultural traditions. I am no sentimental fool. i don't care if 3000 years from now nobody speaks english or spanish. I don't care if people stop listening to rock or stop eating pizza. This obcession with ethnicity is what leads to genocide, and xenophobia. I don't like you because you are hispanic like me, I like you because you are an intelligent and kind human being. I would like an Albanian or Japanese person just as much for the same reasons.
I don't buy into the US vs Them mentality.

XogGyux, wars are very expensive things. The defense budget is a substantial part of all taxes collected.

It is... But so is car insurance.
Defense budget = insurance for a nation. As long as humanity is a violent vicious creature, and we have already agreed that we are, there is a need for defense budget.
Now... 1 year ago, we were having this conversation, I swear I would have said that I thought the US should cut the defense spending by at least half, if not more. After all, we already spend as much as the next 10 countries in the list, and half of the countries in that list are strong allies of the US. But then russia invaded Ukraine.... and my views on the matter have been challanged and I have changed my mind. I am a pacifist, but following Tony Stark's phylosophy "Peace means having a bigger stick than the other guy". But here is the dirty little secret, military spenditure is NOT a waste. War is a waste, but military spenditure (in peace time) is not a waste. A lot of the technologies that we enjoy today have been funded as military projects in part. Nuclear research for nuclear energy? Manhathan project. Rockets and satellites? NASA partly as an ICBM race with the russians. GPS? Also military, Internet? military, Teflon, lasers, etc. It is not a waste. Getting a 2 million missile to kill other human being... is a waste. But again, going back to human nature... we are violent vicious creatures. This is what pragmatism is all about.

No, XogGyux you don't understand what I was trying to convey. That land is livable and very livable.

That is not the point. The point is, you cannot produce critical products in quantities enough to satisfy the need of the island. As a result, you are economically dependent on good relations with your neighbors to obtain those critical products. You are economically dependent. This is fine if you have an amicable separation, but how likely that is? I think it is very unlikely. For instance, when you discuss the topic, similar to Cuban Fidelists, you often times refer to the US as the imperialist colonizer.... do you think you can have an amicable separation? Anything short of a fully voluntary bipartisan (US and PR) agreement on independence is almost certain to guarantee the economic ruin of puerto rico. Even if it is not done on purpose (as in the case on cuba). If it is done on purpose, PR is properly fucked, at least cuba had the USSR as a sugar daddy for a few decades to transition, if the same shit happens to PR, you are going to see mass violence and famine, of that I have no doubt in my mind.

It does not have a real winter. No need to store for winter food.

It does not matter. There is not enough land to feed everyone. You would have to cover the whole island on farmland (and you cant, because you got a lot of mountainous terrain) just to farm for food. That is without even having space for houses, roads, etc. You definitely don't have enough farmland, you probably don't even have enough water for that farmland that you don't have.

It is fertile and the lifestyle is fairly easy compared to Alaska for example. You can eat year round with minimal efforts on planting and harvesting and the protein or fish catching was fairly easy.

Maybe if you are a taino in a 50k population for the island. With 3 million inhabitants, if you stop importing food, your people will starve to death no matter how fertile the land is.
It takes about 1 acre of farm land to feed 1 person. Puerto rico has about 2.25 acres of total land (including area that is not even remotely suitable for farm land). You have 3 million people. Math does not lie, there is no version of this in which PR can feed itself.

Water supplies were easy.

As long as all the food comes from outside. If you had to irrigate 100% of the island, I suspect that the water might be a bit more tight. I haven't done the math for this because it is irrelevant, you don't even have enough land so it is irrelevant if you can irrigate wha you don't have.
And.... even if somehow you get your hands on special genetically modified crops that you could potentially grow in the island reliably in a fraction of the farmland... you are 1 hurricane away from total disaster. We all know that PR never gets hurricanes right? At 3 million inhabitant, PR is a fully economically dependent nation. unless you are willing to entertain the posibility of killing off or deporting a significant number of puertoricans... there is no plan in sight that would economically free you from the US, ever.

No real big predators either.

I am sure you got sharks around the island :lol:
But for real, are you thinking on going back to pre-industrial society? That would be the only reason in which having vs not having predators would make a difference. The US have bears and mountain lions, I have never been bothered by them.

I think this is an emotional topic for you. For one, there is your patriotic pride and you have also commented in the past how important this issue was for your mother. All of that is noted and important. But emotions need to allow common sense to prevail. If you throw a temper tantrum until you get whatever it is that you want.... if you get it, when you get it, you might realize that it was a big mistake. Cuba committed a big mistake, I know this, I am certain of this. The british seem to be regretting brexit, and that is a far less consequential union than that of the US and PR. I only know about PR tangentially, I don't know deeply inside the thoughts and wishes of the average puerto-rican, that's for sure. My analysis and evaluation is solely based on a bit of common sense, and readily available statistics, not on the wishes and wants of the PR people. I don't claim to know what is best to your people, and I truly wish they get what they want. I am just pointing out that you should consider that perhaps things are not nearly as bad as they can get. Consider it, because the fate of millions could be at risk. I genuinly believe my life and that of my fellow cubans would have been much better had Castro not alienated the US and instead sought to be a partner rather than an antagonist. I genuinly believe that the US, despite is many, many defects, is an improvement upon the prior generations of powerful nations, and an overall a positive force in the world. The western hemisphere is relatively peaceful. Conflicts are usually internal in nature, rather than between countries. This is not the case in eastern europe, africa and asia. Coincidence?
#15263395
XogGyux wrote:That's a good theory, but so far, human history has not supported this theory. As far as human has had a recorded history, the opposite has been observed. You cannot design a system to tailor the best human being... you have to design a system that accommodates for the most greedy and most violent of us as well. As far as history of human race goes, the period under the "leadership" of the US has been an upgrade compared to the prior options. You might not like it, but it is the reality.

XogGyux, where is your evidence for your version of human history darling? My version is based on Yuval Harari and his book Homo Sapiens. He is an Israeli historian and did great research on human history and human behavior over time. Why should be acommodate a human society to appeal to greedy and violent people? Eventually they create destruction and even mass extinction events that destroy all societies. They are a threat. We got to realize again what Sagan stated. We need to be mature enough to grow into our technology. If we value human life we got to realize which values we have to make the central values. Not the ones based on repitlian fear based behaviors but the ones that appeal to altruism, cooperation and working in groups to bring solutions to difficult problems. We will have to face very hard problems in the future. And letting rampant greed and violent leadership full of people who think the Earth can sustain our destruction on its current course is acceptable are on a suicide mission for all of the human race. I got to do what I can to go and change that. So do you XogGyux. The USA did do manifest destiny. They killed off people who occupied the land in the USA before the arrival of the ones with the American experiment of expansion and they denied rights to many many people. Women, black slaves, Native Americans, Chinese and Japanese Americans and people without property rights, voting rights. Women. But the inclusion was forced with PRESSURE. Over time. Not because it is a superior society. But because all pressure that is constant and sustainable over time responds to change. The USA constitution was a product of the Age of Enlightenment. A historical era based on separation of church and state, and many other ideas that used to be considered extreme and radical in Europe at the time. Maybe I am not understanding what you are interpreting XogGyux? You should read how humans wound up with the structures they presently have in the world.


Bullshit. There is no instance in human history that compares favorably vs what we have currently. For most of human history we have had actual slaves... how can you possibly even suggest that the history of human shows less exploitation.
What are you talking about XogGyux? There was a Civil War fought in the USA because the Robber Barons of the North needed their economic system to be primordial in shaping economic policy in the USA. Plantation slave economies where human labor was free and they were considered property and chattel were part of the reason the USA became powerful. Free labor is a great wealth builder. But if capitalism says that you need wage labor to replace it for better efficiency and owning slaves is not efficient? And there is an abolitionist movement underway and political power play conflicts? You got Civil War. The USA was not some peaceful paradise of equality back then or now. It has to have people struggling to not only preserve their rights and defend or expand more people who have a voice and a vote but it has to deal with pressure from dissenting groups. ALL GOVERNMENTS have to do that in political human history. Nothing unique about the USA in that sense either. Sure over time exploitation lessens. Slavery was abolished. The freed slaves post Civil War periods were given 40 acres and a mule....and the emancipation proclaimation was the law of the land. The Southern states never were fully accepting of it though. Thus the KKK and Jim Crow was done to compromise with the wounds of loss for the confederacy. The USA history is very deeply racist for many generations in its history. Do you disagree with that XogGyux?


Oh, there you go. Exactly. I answered your prior point before reading this :lol: conversation style.


Not saying it is ethical, or moral, but even that is a massive upgrade vs actual slavery. When your shit salary factory worker quits... you don't send dogs after him or her and then whip their back until they are moribund or dead. The current bottom-salary worker at least have a way out of the vicious cycle. Not saying it is an easy way out or that it is fair or good... but it is an improvement as compared to what used to be the norm for millennia of human history.


Maybe... but which countries are even entertaining such social upgrades? It is not fascist China... it is not oligarchic russia, it was not the former USSR... those systems are being explored by mainly western, mostly capitalistic (with social tones) countries. So... you prove my point.


You are confusing an acceptance of reality with a rejection of the desire to make improvements. I agree we need to improve our systems... but we have to improve the good ones... not the failed ones. Maybe you don't want to improve upon already existing systems... maybe you want a shock/reset and create something from scratch. That sort of change = misery and death to hundreds of thousands of millions of people if not billion of people. Destroying the current capitalistic-leaning world order to create something from scratch = conflict, wars, famine, deaths. I am sorry, I am not interested in watching that circus carnage. You want to improve our systems in a diplomatic, constructive (and slow), way? I am all ears... you want to shoot the lion on the face and see what happens next? I am not interested.


That belongs on a motivational poster on top of the teacher's blackboard in a primary school classroom. Have you thought that sacrifice could also mean sacrificing PR's independence? Or Sacrificing your ideals?
I am an extremely liberal person and I stand by my record in this forum for very pro-social policies and progressivism. But I have to routinely sacrifice what could be in a perfect world... for what can actually occur in our real world. I am sorry, but we are constrained by the bounds of our reality.


Have you met human beings? People get into rage road and kill each other... not just in the US... EVERYWHERE. Jelous husbands kill their wives when they think they are cheating on them (even when sometimes they aren't), fathers that rape their kids or sell them to marry them off.. or sometimes if a baby daughter is born they kill them or abandon them. Humans are not some sort of angelic beings. Wake up. We are vicious animals in the wild and the only thing keeping us from going into the road biting other humans being is the civilizing nature of our societies. This is a WORK IN PROGRESS. We are getting better... but emphasis on getting, and emphasis on better. If you wish to remain sane (and alive), I advise you to accept reality as it is.


There is no option. The world is scary. Fear protects you. You cannot ignore it, you cannot become numb to it. Fear exists so that we can act to save ourselves. The fearless mostly end up dead.


Don't be foolish, there are no reptilian societies :lol: .
This is our reality if you don't make a system that takes into account our nature... you are guaranteed to fail.


Who said anything about advanced?
We are essentially the same Duffus that built the pyramids... As a species, we are very young, and our collective human recorded history is nothing but a blink of an eye compared to the totality of our species walking the earth. Humans have been around ~2million years.. of that, about 5 thousands make up recorded history. Our recorded history is less than 0.3% of our total existence, and for ALL of that recorded history we have behaved as total fiery savages. Again... we are not angelic beings, we are wild animals. You cannot design a system of perfect harmony. If you put cattle and tiger together, you going to have dead cattle. You cannot will human peace and prosperity out of a deep desire for harmony. I wish you could, but you cannot.


Agreed.


Again. You can wish for it. But I guarantee you, you will not get it. Not during your lifetime, not in my lifetime. Not in your children's lifetime.


Who said anything about giving up? Play to your strengths. You have to be strategic and cunning about it. Sometimes, that means admitting that you have to play the losing hand a few times.


So do I. But I am realistic about my expectations. In the last 5000 years we have always had at least 1 empire, war has been constant and so have famine and diseases. Most of the improvements for all of those things have actually occurred during the last century... A century that has been dominated by the world order of western/US-lead countries.
But make no mistake, we are the same beasts. You are dealing with a very fragile balance.


Really? Why is it that puerto rico imports 85% of all its food?
This is nonsense @Tainari88 . If puerto rico was 100% farm land, no residential houses, no parking lots, no roads, no rivers, no mountains, no beaches... if puerto rico was 100% farmland, it wouldn't still be able to feed its 3 million people. As 3 million people require a bit over 10squared kilometers worth of farmland and puerto rico is a bit smaller than that.
Puerto rico cannot sustain its own population with domestically produced food. Not even Cuba supports its population with domestically grown food. Did you know that despite the nonsense that cuban goverment (and some of our own PoFos members) say, a significant portion of Cuba's food is imported from the US?
And who is the largest exporter of food in the world? Oh, btw it is the united states.
In this half of the globe, Only the US, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay are net exporters of food. Hypothetically, if Puerto Rico were to become independent of the US... if that independence is not obtained 100% under amicable and peaceful terms... there is no version of the aftermath in which puerto rico does not suffer mass famine as they have to source food from farther countries at much higher prices.
Then there is energy... 97% of puerto rico's electricity comes from fossil fuels. PR has no natural gas, no petroleum or coal production in the island. Except for about 3% of renewables, everything else is imported.
PR cannot possibly be economically independent.
You want political independence? That is not impossible. You might get that. Maybe even by peaceful means without any military intervention by the US, without any shot fired, and with post-separation amicable terms. That would be the best (although unlikely) case scenario... and even then, you'd still be at the mercy of the US because you are utterly and inseparably economically dependent of your bigger neightboor. Geography is a bitch, but at least San Juan is not in the Siberian tundra. Do you think you will have a "happily ever after"? Think again. Look at the chaos that is going on on Britain with bretxit... now multiply that by 1000x and that might give you an idea of how bad it will be for PR.
I believe strategically speaking, the best move is to become an official state. But that is just my craziness talking.


Just because other people cared for that at some point in the past, does not mean that they are still equally valuable in the future. The past and the future are different. The past was pre-industrial, the present is not. Large productive farmlands and peasants/workers/slaves to work those lands were valuable in the past. Today you can buy cheap land in the midwest and with tractors and other modern farm equipment you can get many orders of magnitude more output.
An excellent example of of the difference of valuation of the past vs the present = the trade of spices and dyes. Pepper, oregano, cumin, curry, paprika, nutmeg, etc... your average contemporary kitchen stock of spices would probably fetch you a few horses. Times change. Puerto rico is just not as valuable as it was during colonial times. Puerto rico actually cost the federal goverment more than it collects in taxes. In other words, the US is not draining resources form the island, if anything it is spending resources on it.


Yeah, it is forced by mathematics, physics, and reality. There is simply not enough farmland and resources in the island to feed such large population.


Highly doubtful. The US produces remarkably cheap food given the advanced farm equipment and very large/fertile amounts of land in the midwest. In the western hemisphere, the only other realistic option that PR has other than the US is Canada. The US even exports food to Cuba :lol: .


Abusing or leveraging. Tomayto/tomahto. End result is that there is no version of the story in which PR is economically independent. A tiny island next to the behemonth of an economy that is the US is nothing but a skin tag. Best case scenario, your interests align and you both prosper. But you don't really have a realistic chance at putting any sort of pressure, negotiation, leverage, anything... Your independence is completely inconsequential to the US's future. It could, however, completely ruin your country, forever.


That is not what I have said. But PR's current worth is tied to its fate as a US territory. A lot of that worth can (and likely will) be lost in a scenario in which PR becomes independent. It would not be unreasonable, or evil if the US wanted to move productions of its pharmaceutical to a domestic market. Lots of countries want their strategic consumption to be done domestically. That would ruin PR in a heart beat, it is a realistic scenario.
Look at what is going on in Brexit. As long as they were married with the US... thing were going smoothly... now they are having issues. You don't think the same thing would happen in your country? Which is many orders of magnitude more dependent in the US as britain was on the EU? Don't be naive. A PR independence = economic and social collapse of the island. Even in the best-case scenario with the amicable dissolution of US/PR relationships.


That's true. But honestly, I don't trust any legislator. Not puerto rican ones, not US ones, no europeans ones. They always lie and sell you the story. What did the UK legislator said about bretxit? :lol: There is no version of this story that PR comes out unharmed for decades to come.


I don't say always. I certainly hope not. But we have 5k history of the same tune, there is no reason to believe we are about to change instrument. We will be hearing the same music for many decades, and likely centuries, to come.


Sure. That is what I have said. The trend is improving, and you should be grateful for those that have contributed to such trend. Like it or not, the US has contributed significantly. We still have a long, LONG, way to go. But hey, incremental improvements is better than no-improvement. All I am saying, if I were you, I would be proud to be an American as you are Puerto Rican. I think it is a good thing.


I don't see it that way. But the change will be incremental, not dramatic. I think you are a very idealistic person. Pure good intentions, but uncompromising. Idealistic people, even when we agree on almost anything, scare me, because idealistic people are willing to sink the boat and drawn everyone. Idealistic people that didn't vote for Clinton helped Trump get elected. Idealistic people that want solar/wind and are uncompromising on nuclear will quite literally burn the planet. Independence or bust on PR may end up with bust and a failed state.


But then you have to wake up in the morning, get out of bed and go to work or you will die in your dream. :excited:


I honestly think I am the pragmatic one in this discussion.


Well, I think PR formally joining the Union would be great. That is change. Do you agree? :lol:


Let's compare apples to apple. Will not include all of latin america because island economies are different than mainland economies. Goods are more expensive on islands. Shipping something to Hawaii or Alaska (alaska is essentially an island from the US mainland and behaves very similarly) is far more expensive.

Lets list the independent caribbean nations (I will list in order of independence date as found on this website):
http://www.caribbeanelections.com/educa ... 0in%201983.
Haiti: GDP/Capita 1.8k/capita (more than 15 times lower than puerto rico)
Dominican Republic GDP/Capita ~8k/capita (or about 4x lower than puerto rico)
Cuba GDP/Capita ~10k (3x lower than puerto rico)
Jamaica 5k/capita (6x less than puerto rico)
Trinidad and Tobago 16k (about half compared to puerto rico)
Guyana is in the list but it is not an island, but anyway, even if we include it 10k/capita (1/3rd of puerto rico)
Barbados (17k/capita, about half of puerto rico)
The bahamas (27k/capita) this is 85% of Puerto Rico's
Dominica 7k (about 1/5th of puerto rico)
Again, Suriname is in this list, but it is not an island. Even if we were to count it 7k (or about 1/5th) of puerto rico.
Saint Lucia 9k (1/3rd of puerto rico's)
St. Vincent and the Grenadines ~9k/capita (1/3rd of puerto rico's)
Belize 6k (1/5th of puerto rico's)
Antigua and Barbuda 15k or about half of puerto rico
St. Kitts and Nevis 18k or about a bit more than half of puerto rico.

For reference, PR sits at about 32k/capita. Do you see any other caribbean (INDEPENDENT) island that you want PR to follow in that list? You want to be like Cuba? or Jamaica? Or Haiti? or perhaps you want to be like Dominica?

Yeah... there are rich as fuck islands in the caribbean. Bermuda? British territory. Cayman Islands? British territory, US virgin islands? US territory, British virgin islands? British territory.

PR is not on a particularly bad economic scenario, all caribbeans islands are kind of sucky, and the ones that are doing OKish are heavily dependent on tourism and banking hackery.

I am sorry, but PR has not been blessed with a strong geographic leverage for this era. PR could have been incredibly important for the spaniards of 2 centuries ago... but that was 2 centuries ago. In the modern word... PR is just a piece of land in the middle of the ocean.


That belongs on a car bumper sticker. I want improvement. Change can be for the better, but it can be for the worse. When you are a small island in the middle of the caribbean that nobody has a reason to care for... change is more likely to move in the direction of the worse. You want to take your chances?


And if you are going to judge everyone for everything their ancestors ever did... we all belong in hell. The native american regularly war each other and the Japanese bombed Americans as well. Pound per pound, the US has been an improvement on this vicious world.


That is my point!


Well, here we totally disagree. Tell me, which empire do you prefer. None is not an option, it has never been in human history, there is no reason to believe it will ever be. If you could give the military and economic might of the US to any other would-be empire of history... which one did you give it to? Would you be OK with the imperial british to have nuclear bombs? Or perhaps imperial japan... do you think they would have been wiser world leaders? Perhaps the Ottomas... I am sure the ottomans with nukes would have been very peaceful and respectful of their neightbors right? Or perhaps the USSR, perhaps you wanted the world under USSR ruling? Or perhaps the chinese? Or perhaps colonial spain? Or the mongols? You want Genghis Khan with the nuclear codes and the command of the US navy with its 10 aircraft carrier groups? Do you think a modern Genghis Khan would have been more peaceful?
I am convinced that despite its many defects, the US is generally a positive force in our chaotic world. Despite all the bad press, the US is far less belicose than all prior empires that came before it and has shown a high degree of retrain compared with what it can do.


Ordinary people do benefit. All americans benefits? What are you talking about?


Well. So far, they have been. From the egyptians, to the romans, to the bizantines, russians, britsh, spanish, Portuguese, mongolian, mayan, incan, ottoman, american. There is absolutely no reason to assume they will go away anytime soon.


Who care if you speak a new language. How many are suffering because we don't speak latin or sumerian? That is superflous. That is tribalism speaking. I certainly don't condone violence, but I have no problem what so ever with culture merging and extinction of ancient cultural traditions. I am no sentimental fool. i don't care if 3000 years from now nobody speaks english or spanish. I don't care if people stop listening to rock or stop eating pizza. This obcession with ethnicity is what leads to genocide, and xenophobia. I don't like you because you are hispanic like me, I like you because you are an intelligent and kind human being. I would like an Albanian or Japanese person just as much for the same reasons.
I don't buy into the US vs Them mentality.


It is... But so is car insurance.
Defense budget = insurance for a nation. As long as humanity is a violent vicious creature, and we have already agreed that we are, there is a need for defense budget.
Now... 1 year ago, we were having this conversation, I swear I would have said that I thought the US should cut the defense spending by at least half, if not more. After all, we already spend as much as the next 10 countries in the list, and half of the countries in that list are strong allies of the US. But then russia invaded Ukraine.... and my views on the matter have been challanged and I have changed my mind. I am a pacifist, but following Tony Stark's phylosophy "Peace means having a bigger stick than the other guy". But here is the dirty little secret, military spenditure is NOT a waste. War is a waste, but military spenditure (in peace time) is not a waste. A lot of the technologies that we enjoy today have been funded as military projects in part. Nuclear research for nuclear energy? Manhathan project. Rockets and satellites? NASA partly as an ICBM race with the russians. GPS? Also military, Internet? military, Teflon, lasers, etc. It is not a waste. Getting a 2 million missile to kill other human being... is a waste. But again, going back to human nature... we are violent vicious creatures. This is what pragmatism is all about.


That is not the point. The point is, you cannot produce critical products in quantities enough to satisfy the need of the island. As a result, you are economically dependent on good relations with your neighbors to obtain those critical products. You are economically dependent. This is fine if you have an amicable separation, but how likely that is? I think it is very unlikely. For instance, when you discuss the topic, similar to Cuban Fidelists, you often times refer to the US as the imperialist colonizer.... do you think you can have an amicable separation? Anything short of a fully voluntary bipartisan (US and PR) agreement on independence is almost certain to guarantee the economic ruin of puerto rico. Even if it is not done on purpose (as in the case on cuba). If it is done on purpose, PR is properly fucked, at least cuba had the USSR as a sugar daddy for a few decades to transition, if the same shit happens to PR, you are going to see mass violence and famine, of that I have no doubt in my mind.


It does not matter. There is not enough land to feed everyone. You would have to cover the whole island on farmland (and you cant, because you got a lot of mountainous terrain) just to farm for food. That is without even having space for houses, roads, etc. You definitely don't have enough farmland, you probably don't even have enough water for that farmland that you don't have.


Maybe if you are a taino in a 50k population for the island. With 3 million inhabitants, if you stop importing food, your people will starve to death no matter how fertile the land is.
It takes about 1 acre of farm land to feed 1 person. Puerto rico has about 2.25 acres of total land (including area that is not even remotely suitable for farm land). You have 3 million people. Math does not lie, there is no version of this in which PR can feed itself.


As long as all the food comes from outside. If you had to irrigate 100% of the island, I suspect that the water might be a bit more tight. I haven't done the math for this because it is irrelevant, you don't even have enough land so it is irrelevant if you can irrigate wha you don't have.
And.... even if somehow you get your hands on special genetically modified crops that you could potentially grow in the island reliably in a fraction of the farmland... you are 1 hurricane away from total disaster. We all know that PR never gets hurricanes right? At 3 million inhabitant, PR is a fully economically dependent nation. unless you are willing to entertain the posibility of killing off or deporting a significant number of puertoricans... there is no plan in sight that would economically free you from the US, ever.


I am sure you got sharks around the island :lol:
But for real, are you thinking on going back to pre-industrial society? That would be the only reason in which having vs not having predators would make a difference. The US have bears and mountain lions, I have never been bothered by them.

I think this is an emotional topic for you. For one, there is your patriotic pride and you have also commented in the past how important this issue was for your mother. All of that is noted and important. But emotions need to allow common sense to prevail. If you throw a temper tantrum until you get whatever it is that you want.... if you get it, when you get it, you might realize that it was a big mistake. Cuba committed a big mistake, I know this, I am certain of this. The british seem to be regretting brexit, and that is a far less consequential union than that of the US and PR. I only know about PR tangentially, I don't know deeply inside the thoughts and wishes of the average puerto-rican, that's for sure. My analysis and evaluation is solely based on a bit of common sense, and readily available statistics, not on the wishes and wants of the PR people. I don't claim to know what is best to your people, and I truly wish they get what they want. I am just pointing out that you should consider that perhaps things are not nearly as bad as they can get. Consider it, because the fate of millions could be at risk. I genuinly believe my life and that of my fellow cubans would have been much better had Castro not alienated the US and instead sought to be a partner rather than an antagonist. I genuinly believe that the US, despite is many, many defects, is an improvement upon the prior generations of powerful nations, and an overall a positive force in the world. The western hemisphere is relatively peaceful. Conflicts are usually internal in nature, rather than between countries. This is not the case in eastern europe, africa and asia. Coincidence?


I got to go Xog. But I will be back to finish later tonight eh?
#15263404
Tainari88 wrote:XogGyux, where is your evidence for your version of human history darling?

It is not "my version". It is human history. For as long as humans have been recording history, there have been wars and empires, and exploitation of humans including slavery.

My version is based on Yuval Harari and his book Homo Sapiens. He is an Israeli historian and did great research on human history and human behavior over time.

I am not familiar with this individual but if he is unaware of ancient empires, wars, pillage, famines, and rapes... then he is not much of a historian.

Why should be acommodate a human society to appeal to greedy and violent people?

Nobody said that the society needs to appeal to the greedy or violent, but we do have to account for it as much as we have to account for hurricanes and earthquakes when building houses and skyscrapers. Humans are violent, and greedy. They have always been, and they will continue to be. Your wishes might be noble but are unrealistic.

Eventually they create destruction and even mass extinction events that destroy all societies.

Destruction is part of the natural cycle. Forests catch fire and burn, and the intense heat stimulates certain seeds to sprout, in a now-charred land that is extra fertile with little competition. This is the natural order of things. The lion eats the zebra and bacteria feed on babies. I am not saying we have to be happy with it, but ignoring reality is a certain path for failure. Assuming that an even worse empire will not simply sprout out the second the US leaves a vacuum power is simply wishfool thinking. Especially when we can literally see them salivating their mouths and sharpening their claws while they wait. Don't be naive.

If we value human life we got to realize which values we have to make the central values.

Well, that is the problem. As a species? We don't really value human life that much. That is part of the problem why you are not understanding me. Your personal values cannot be extrapolated to the entirety of humanity. I know it would never cross your mind to abandon your baby girl or to even kill it out of disappointment that is a girl and not a boy... yet it happens in part of the world. I know if you were the leader of russia you would not have invaded your neighbor country and that you wouldn't have tortured and killed jews in WWII... But humans do.
You are wishing a world that cannot accommodate humanity as it is today. I sure wish as a species we live long enough to get a world close to what you imagine, but it is not going to happen anytime soon.
From what we have seen in history? The US is a remarkably benign power.
You want an angelic nation. That is not in the table. If I ask you what do you want to transport you from your house to your work every day... you might answer a bike, a bicycle, maybe a car or a truck. You cannot ask for a teleporter or a spaceship... they don't exist. It might twist your stomach every time I say it, but the US has objectively been a positive force in the world.

The USA was not some peaceful paradise of equality back then or now.

In relative terms, yes it has. Take for instance the early 1800s. In a spawn of the life of napoleon, he managed to have not 1, or 2 but 7 wars in europe, and the guy died at 51 years of age. A couple dozen countries involved in wars. In fact, war was the norm rather than the exception until recent times. This period in which the US has led the world since ~WWII as been the most peaceful time in human history, even counting vietnam war, iraq, etc. As a percentage of world population? Any conflict that we are having in modern history is nothing compared that what we have had in the past. Yes... there are far more of us and our weapons are far more deadly... but in relative terms, we have also been more peaceful.

The USA history is very deeply racist for many generations in its history. Do you disagree with that XogGyux?

The HUMAN history is very deeply racist. There is racism in Cuba, cubans don't like blacks... even today. When a black marries a white in cuban they say "I hit the jackpot im advancing my race". I kid you not... Cubans have (or at least had them when I was there, I am not sure if they have been updated) laws that expressly prohibited cubans from the eastern part of the country (oriente) to come to the western part of the country (havana). We cringe when orange man Trump talks about mexican as sub-par people but cubans see other cubans as sub-par people themselves. And it is similar in other parts of the world. I have indian friends that tell me in india, darker colored indian are discriminated against.... and we see israel and palestine, and we see russia using ethnic minorities as cannon fodder and we see china cleansing Uyghur. Why are you singling out the US? When the whole world is just as guilty and just as vile? If not more? This is a double standard. The US is far from perfect, but far, FAR, from the worse offender as well.

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