[wat0n]

Yes, please. I want to see the epic clusterfuck of pegging the currency to the dollar and slashing government spending on top. They will drag his body through the streets.

Although it's how these structural adjustment plans have traditionally been done in Latin America

But yes, it will be a clusterfuck - yet what other options does Argentina have? Will Argentina ever have a functional monetary policy?

[annatar1914]

Although it's how these structural adjustment plans have traditionally been done in Latin America

But yes, it will be a clusterfuck - yet what other options does Argentina have? Will Argentina ever have a functional monetary policy?

@wat0n :

Socialism. That's the option that isn't being talked about because it's close to what is optimally possible for Argentina or any other country to have.

[wat0n]

@wat0n :

Socialism. That's the option that isn't being talked about because it's close to what is optimally possible for Argentina or any other country to have.

Socialism like what? Venezuela or Cuba?

[annatar1914]

Socialism like what? Venezuela or Cuba?

@wat0n :

Venezuela isn't Socialist. And Cuba has been under economic blockade since the revolution.

Argentina is yet another sign of the failures of Capitalism, and so we find the great grandson of Ante Pavelic as President. So that Argentina won't try any experiments like Allende's Chile did.

Argentina will now be the test subject of an experiment in how to get as close as possible to Anarcho Capitalism. Privatizing everything.

[wat0n]

@annatar1914 is there any source Milei is related to the Croat fascist Ante Pavelic beyond Twitter? Ironically, it was precisely Peron who took him in as an advisor at first, which makes sense since Peron was keen on fascism. Milei is anti-Peronist.

[annatar1914]

@annatar1914 is there any source Milei is related to the Croat fascist Ante Pavelic beyond Twitter? Ironically, it was precisely Peron who took him in as an advisor at first, which makes sense since Peron was keen on fascism. Milei is anti-Peronist.

@wat0n :

I'm sure there is but I know little Spanish, Italian, or Serbo-Croatian. Milei is listed as having been close to his maternal grandmother, and Ante Pavelic had a daughter or two as I recall. Milei might well be " anti Peronist", but there are competing right wing groups that are Fascistic in essence. I find Anarcho Capitalism to be one of these, it's Feudalism in the Modern Age, where everything would be in private hands including what would otherwise be in public trust, in a State.

[wat0n]

@wat0n :

I'm sure there is but I know little Spanish, Italian, or Serbo-Croatian. Milei is listed as having been close to his maternal grandmother, and Ante Pavelic had a daughter or two as I recall. Milei might well be " anti Peronist", but there are competing right wing groups that are Fascistic in essence. I find Anarcho Capitalism to be one of these, it's Feudalism in the Modern Age, where everything would be in private hands including what would otherwise be in public trust, in a State.

I haven't been able to find any.

Ancaps may suck in many ways but being fascist isn't one of them

Milei is a very ad-hoc character. He said he was beaten by his family as a child, I remember reading he recalled a particular beating during the Falklands War as he said - when he was 12 - he thought the whole thing was pointless and that Argentina would lose. Milei would then say he didn't speak to his parents for a decade, which is very unusual in Latin American culture, even a mild taboo I would say. I think it helps explain why he is like he is.

[Beren]

Dollarization is a peg on steroids. It is more credible because it is nearly irreversible.

However, simply pegging the Argentinian peso to the USD wouldn't be so interesting because they already did it between 1991 and 2002, but it ultimately failed. I guess Milei's supposed coalition partners aren't very enthusiastic about it, I wonder if the IMF would approve it.

[wat0n]

Indeed, pegs can be dangerous as they can exacerbate shocks. Yet countries with a poor track record in containing inflation often opt for pegging their currencies to stronger, more stable ones.

Ultimately, the real question is if Argentina can ever stop needing to print money to fund its government through seigniorage at some point. Doing away with the possibility of seigniorage by giving up on your currency is a tacit admission that they can't do so.

Like a recovering addict, they need to do away with the drug of seigniorage even if they get abstinence syndrome. The only problem is that abstinence can end up killing the patient yet maybe it is necessary for some addicts to take the risk. I don't know.

[QatzelOk]

It's not that Argentinians have a "I'm rich, we don't need social programs mentality" you can (could?) find in the US and parts of the Anglophone world. It's more like "I'm poor and the government is making me poorer while the 'caste'* is getting rich".

*Milei refers to mainstream politicians and specially the peronists as a caste. Dissatisfied libertarian Argentinians will often refer to their own country as Peronia because of how entrenched peronism is everywhere...

I get that poor people in societies vote primarily for ways of increasing their income potential, and not along ideological lines, but Argentina was RICH for a very long time, and this affects the self-image of a nation - "we used to be so rich."

Having been rich in the past suggests to most people that it would be possible to become rich again. To make yourself great again. Thus the search for a Messiah to "make us rich again!" might be part or what leads poor people to vote for income concentration into the hands of the rich.

The privatizing that is being promised... will make medicine and good education more out of reach for the normal income-earners of Argentina, and will make the 1% richer and more powerful.

I get that the left-wing in Argentina might have discredited itself with failed policies, but this idea of privatizing everything... suggest the "own goal" that AMLO blurted out. Where I am in Quebec, the left are constantly fighting AGAINST privatizing things that are common goods like education, health care and mass transit.

Meanwhile, the 1% are constantly looking for ways of marketing privatization to us by fooling the bottom 40% who just follow trends.

[Tainari88]

First time I'm hearing this.

But one thing he did say is that his parents beat him as a kid and that he didn't speak to them for a decade. That may explain why Milei is like he is.

That is what the world needs now, another traumatized kid who has a dysfunctional family and he is out there wanting to get revenge on the Communists because he was indoctrinated in his home to see the others as a threat to his dictatorship. He is going to fail. The only politicians who are going to be successful are the ones who do not care about what the opposition is advocating for and who do not dedicate time to slinging dirt. They have to be good at getting things done and not talking shit all day.

Solve the issues in that nation. No matter what. Identify three or four hardcore tough to solve problems or issues of the day that all Argentinos need resolved and resolve it. You will guarantee a big block of voters next electoral season. Also get a deep bench behind you. A bunch of top notch competent leaders advocating for great solutions.

Dedicating time and energy and free publicity to some hot air bullshiters who will only work on trying to jail the opposition and strip the opposition of any voice and not deal with pressing problems in their nations? They will be kicked out. It happened to Bolsonaro. His party sucked with the pandemic and his elitist bullshit did not solve most issues in Brazil. Lula came back. The people said, he was not perfect, but he was better than Bolsonaro. LOL.

[wat0n]

That is what the world needs now, another traumatized kid who has a dysfunctional family and he is out there wanting to get revenge on the Communists because he was indoctrinated in his home to see the others as a threat to his dictatorship. He is going to fail. The only politicians who are going to be successful are the ones who do not care about what the opposition is advocating for and who do not dedicate time to slinging dirt. They have to be good at getting things done and not talking shit all day.

Solve the issues in that nation. No matter what. Identify three or four hardcore tough to solve problems or issues of the day that all Argentinos need resolved and resolve it. You will guarantee a big block of voters next electoral season. Also get a deep bench behind you. A bunch of top notch competent leaders advocating for great solutions.

Dedicating time and energy and free publicity to some hot air bullshiters who will only work on trying to jail the opposition and strip the opposition of any voice and not deal with pressing problems in their nations? They will be kicked out. It happened to Bolsonaro. His party sucked with the pandemic and his elitist bullshit did not solve most issues in Brazil. Lula came back. The people said, he was not perfect, but he was better than Bolsonaro. LOL.

I would say politics is very attractive for people who are fucked up in one way or another. For Milei, in a way, it has probably been a way to get a second family of sorts and shut some mouths.

I get that poor people in societies vote primarily for ways of increasing their income potential, and not along ideological lines, but Argentina was RICH for a very long time, and this affects the self-image of a nation - "we used to be so rich."

Having been rich in the past suggests to most people that it would be possible to become rich again. To make yourself great again. Thus the search for a Messiah to "make us rich again!" might be part or what leads poor people to vote for income concentration into the hands of the rich.

The privatizing that is being promised... will make medicine and good education more out of reach for the normal income-earners of Argentina, and will make the 1% richer and more powerful.

I get that the left-wing in Argentina might have discredited itself with failed policies, but this idea of privatizing everything... suggest the "own goal" that AMLO blurted out. Where I am in Quebec, the left are constantly fighting AGAINST privatizing things that are common goods like education, health care and mass transit.

Meanwhile, the 1% are constantly looking for ways of marketing privatization to us by fooling the bottom 40% who just follow trends.

Argentina's decadence began during the Great Depression and accelerated with peronism. Milei if anything appeals to those Argentinian 19th century liberals who managed to rule an Argentina that was as rich as France and would love to go back to something like that, I would say this is a major reason why he became Libertarian/Ancap to begin with. It's MAGA, Argentinian style.

[Truth To Power]

Ancaps may suck in many ways but being fascist isn't one of them

Right. What they actually advocate is closer to feudalism: a "government" by and for private landowners whose functions are limited to forcibly preventing the landowners' victims from defending themselves.

[Truth To Power]

Venezuela isn't Socialist.

Then what is it? And why is the USA economically blockading it?

[annatar1914]

Then what is it? And why is the USA economically blockading it?

@Truth To Power :

It's more of a mixed economy, corporatist, not Socialist per se.

As to why the USA is economically blockading Venezuela or any other country, it's simple: they won't follow the lead of Uncle Sam, and have to be punished in some way.

[Rugoz]

It always boggles my mind when people propose that countries incapable of basic monetary and fiscal policy should adopt socialism. As if running an entire economy is an easier task less prone to populist demands and corruption.

[annatar1914]

It always boggles my mind when people propose that countries incapable of basic monetary and fiscal policy should adopt socialism. As if running an entire economy is an easier task less prone to populist demands and corruption.

@Rugoz :

Elitist cant.

" Incapable"? No, only a country in thrall to non productive economic parasites who play with the countries finances like one might gambling at a casino.

No, human nature doesn't change after Socialism, but the bandits and thieves out for personal gain are at least restrained and working people are rewarded.

[Beren]

Like Socialists just come as a commando, eliminate (the bandits and thieves of) the ruling class while letting the working class have a well-deserved party, and when the job's done in a rather limited amount of time they leave voluntarily leaving a functional economy behind themselves.

[QatzelOk]

" Incapable"? No, only a country in thrall to non productive economic parasites who play with the countries finances like one might gambling at a casino.

No, human nature doesn't change after Socialism, but the bandits and thieves out for personal gain are at least restrained and working people are rewarded.

But what about countries like France and Canada, where the "left" has just become a bunch or rich people who support identity politics causes that are trending and don't seem to care about income equality at all anymore?

Doesn't this demonstrate that the word "socialist" has become a floating signifier that today mostly means "promotes social policies that make the wealthy feel less guilty for their economic predation on the rest of society?"

If this is what Argentina's electable "left" has become, then it makes sense that many Argentinians might have given up at this point, and said "fuck it" and voted for social suicide.

Like Americans did when they voted Trump. "We can't mold our own society to stop from getting ripped off, so we will destroy our society by placing an X next to a crazy person's name."

[Truth To Power]

@Truth To Power :

It's more of a mixed economy, corporatist, not Socialist per se.

Please explain what makes it "corporatist." They nationalized the oil industry, which at that time was the lion's share of the economy (it has since collapsed).

As to why the USA is economically blockading Venezuela or any other country, it's simple: they won't follow the lead of Uncle Sam, and have to be punished in some way.

Lots of countries don't follow the lead of Uncle Sam, but only a socialist handful are blockaded.