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#14249947
I have noticed a lot of threads here that disparage Chavez and his successor, Madura. These politicians are considered to be autocrats and fascists, and it is thought they have been turning Venezuela into an undemocratic and totalitarian society. Occasionally, someone will dispute this. Various articles and reports are cited and linked to by both parties to the debate. Each side claims to base their assertions on concrete evidence, and each side denounces the evidence of their opponents as ideological and overly tendentious. For example, a certain study can be discounted because it was published by a right-wing think-tank, or a certain report should be discarded because it comes from a left-wing organization. In such an environment, the evidence itself acquires an uncertain character, and the constant roar of propaganda makes it difficult to evaluate the facts in a cool and deliberate fashion.

The confusion is increased because these events are unfolding in Venezuela right as we speak. With the passage of time, however, the facts become more soundly established - the sources are enumerated, their credibility is analyzed, and so on.

The condemnation of Chavez reminds me of the vilification of the Sandinistas 30 years ago. Here is a typical extract ("Nobody Won in Nicaragua," New York Times, November 7, 1984, http://www.nytimes.com/1984/11/07/opini ... ragua.html):

Only the naive believe that Sunday's election in Nicaragua was democratic or legitimizing proof of the Sandinistas' popularity... The Sandinistas made it easy to dismiss their election as a sham.


The author bases his assertion on a few pieces of "evidence":

The result was ordained when opposition parties tamely accepted terms that barred them from power... [The Sandinistas'] decisive act was to break off negotiations with Arturo Cruz, an opposition democrat whose candidacy could have produced a more credible contest...


Let's examine these claims about Arturo Cruz and his 1984 candidacy. Thankfully, Cruz himself has put his story on record. I refer you to Tim Rogers, "Electoral Farce or Imperfect Democracy?", Nicaragua Dispatch, November 4, 2011. It can be found at http://www.nicaraguadispatch.com/news/2 ... e-cia/1132.

In the forthcoming second installment of his political memoires, “Chronicles of a Dissident,” Cruz dedicates an entire chapter to what he calls the “absurd” role he was unwittingly suckered into playing in the “electoral farce of 1984”...

Despite taking a vocal stance against the ‘84 elections, Cruz was identified by the CIA and several prominent Nicaraguans, including business leader Enrique Bolaños, as an ideal candidate to run against Ortega.

The CIA’s plan, however, was to get Cruz to campaign against Ortega just long enough to rally anti-Sandinista sentiments in the countryside, but drop out of the race before the vote. The plan, Cruz says, was to use the elections as an excuse to campaign openly against the Sandinistas, but then withdraw his candidacy to deny Ortega the satisfaction of winning a legitimate poll.

After a series of secretive meetings with CIA handlers in Washington-area bars and in his home in Bethesda, Maryland, Cruz says he started to warm to the idea of running a fake candidacy, and started to seriously contemplate his counterfeit campaign. But before he could make up his mind whether or not to run, Cruz discovered that the CIA and [the] extreme right were already moving forward on the plan by publically announcing his candidacy in Managua.

At that moment, Cruz writes in his yet-to-be-released memoires, “I was for the first time forced to cross the bridge that the CIA had laid out in front of me.””


Thanks to historical hindsight, we now know. Arturo Cruz was definitely not "an opposition democrat whose candidacy could have produced a more credible contest." By his own admission, his candidacy was deliberately designed to do the exact opposite. If the plan all along was to withdraw from the race in order to embarrass the Sandinistas, how can the Sandinistas be blamed for breaking off negotiations?

I fear I have already lost the right-wingers. The lefties may be nodding their heads in agreement, because I seem to be in support of Chavez and the Sandinistas. Ideologues from either party may fail to understand my basic point here, however, because I am talking about facts. There is no such thing as a right-wing fact or a left-wing fact. A fact is either true or false, and that is independent of our ideological beliefs.

It is a fact, established by his own free confession, that Arturo Cruz was a CIA stooge and that his candidacy was not serious. Thanks to the documentary record, these things are well established. We are not talking about "The Electoral Process in Nicaragua : Domestic and International Influences," Nov. 19, 1984, http://www.williamgbecker.com/lasa_1984.pdf. This report from LASA can safely be dismissed because it comes from a "liberal" source, right? But how can you dismiss the confession of Cruz himself?

As long as we are discussing the LASA report, why not see how they measure up in evaluating Cruz and his candidacy, versus the editorial board of the Times?

External critics of the Nicaraguan process have argued that, because legitimate opposition groups (especially Arturo Cruz and his Coordinadora coalition) were "excluded" from the process, the elections were illegitimate and uncompetitive. The facts do not support this notion of exclusion. No major political tendency in Nicaragua was denied access to the electoral process in 1984. The only parties that did not appear on the ballot were absent by their own choice, not because of government exclusion. The weight of the available evidence suggests that the Coordinadora group made a policy decision to pursue its political goals in 1984 outside of the electoral process.


It looks like LASA got it right. The author of the Times editorial turns out to be a gullible sucker who actually believed that Cruz was a serious and legitimate candidate, whereas the authors of the LASA report could see Cruz for what he was - a joke candidate who only pretended to run, while in reality he was pursuing his political goals "outside of the electoral process." The editorial can partially be excused for this factual error, because it was written in the heat of the moment, in the very year and month that these events were unfolding, and the author did not have access to Cruz's memoirs and later public statements. However, LASA did not have access to these things either, and somehow they got it right. This suggests that the LASA report is more trustworthy.

Here is a highly revealing quotation from the report.

Upon reviewing the whole course of U.S. conduct in relation to the Sandinista government since 1981, as well as the specific actions taken this year to discredit an electoral process which by Latin American standards was a model of probity and fairness (at least to all candidates who chose to register and submit themselves to a popular test), we must conclude that there is nothing that the Sandinistas could have done to make the 1984 elections acceptable to the United States Government. In dealing with the FSLN regime, the Reagan Administration, by its own admission, applies a double standard.

When asked by our delegation why the United States enthusiastically endorsed the 1984 elections in El Salvador (where all political groups to the left of the Christian Democrats were unrepresented) yet condemned the more inclusionary electoral process in Nicaragua (seven parties, three to the right and three to the left of the FSLN), a senior U.S. official in Central America explained that

"The United States is not obliged to apply the same standard of judgment to a country whose government is avowedly hostile to the U.S. as for a country, like El Salvador, where it is not. These people [the Sandinistas] could bring about a situation in Central America which could pose a threat to U.S. security. That allows us to change our yardstick."


We are through the looking glass here. If the yardstick can be changed whenever we want, that is the same as saying that there is no yardstick. If we declare an election to be a sham, then it is a sham, and the facts about that election mean nothing. If we hail Arturo Cruz as "an opposition democrat whose candidacy could have produced a more credible contest," then that must be true as well. We need not compare him to other candidates who are considered to be more legitimate, in order to see how he measures up. Why do that, when we can apply any standard of measurement we desire? And Cruz's political opponent, Ortega, he is measured by the same yardstick that we apply to people like Castro, Stalin and Hitler. Does it matter if he actually resembles these infamous dictators and tyrants? Should we make a concrete comparison between the elections in Nicaragua and elections in Cuba or Nazi-Germany? Of course not, because we can use any yardstick we want, whenever we want. Besides, such a comparison could be dangerous, because we might find out more than we wanted to, such as the fact that the 1984 elections were "a model of probity and fairness."

Propaganda is more effective when it is timely, in the uncertainty of the present. As time passes, a documentary record is established, and that helps us separate fact from fantasy. There are people who will refuse to avail themselves of this resource, of course, and they can be expected to cling tenaciously to the propaganda construct, regardless of the facts. I suppose that the facts established by LASA can be discarded easily enough, but how do you dismiss the words of Arturo Cruz himself? With the benefit of historical hindsight, we can evaluate these things more accurately, and thanks to Cruz's own contributions to the historical record, we can achieve a high degree of certainty in these evaluations.

On current events in Venezuela, we do not have the benefit of deep historical hindsight. I really know less than I should about Chavez. I have observed his career throughout the years, but only as filtered through the nightly news or the occasional newspaper report. Needless to say, these sources are highly suspect. One thing that has always struck me is the hysterical hatred of Chavez which is typically expressed. I can understand why he would be disliked, but is he a totalitarian monster on the order of Hitler, or even Castro? Because in the right-wing punditry, that is how he is described. In the so-called left-wing media, say the CBS nightly news, the attitude always seemed to be disapproving and critical, at the very least. This is very reminiscent of the vilification of Ortega in the 1980's. I call your attention again to the editorial above, and I remind you of the source - The New York Times, which is supposedly the principle organ of the leftist propaganda machine. But Ortega was not liberal enough for the Times, and his election in 1984 is openly called a "sham."

To compare Ortega or Chavez to Hitler is meaningless. Even the comparison to Castro is a stretch. Does Castro allow elections that were as open and fair as those held in Nicaragua in 1984? Would Castro allow someone like Cruz to run around, criticize the government, and almost openly try to poison the electoral process? Has Communist Cuba ever had an election with "seven parties, three to the right and three to the left" of the ruling regime? In the cool light of history, if we apply a single objective standard, then Ortega looks nothing like Castro. If we apply a double standard, if we measure everything by an arbitrary yardstick that can be changed at will, then, of course, anything is possible.

I strongly suspect that the vilification of Chavez and Madura is based on the same kind of double standard. I am less certain about this than I am about Nicaragua in the 1980's. The historical record, enriched by the admissions of Arturo Cruz, allows me to reach a conclusion that is rock solid - it was Cruz whose candidacy was a "sham," and in evaluating this candidacy and putting it in the context of 1984, the US certainly used a double standard. The jury is still out on Chavez, perhaps. Maybe he really was the totalitarian monster that he is portrayed to be. However, this seems unlikely.
#14250317
Nice, long post. You wrote too much, nobody here reads so much material. I used to live in Venezuela, have tons of friends there, get emails and watch their TV via internet, and I am a consultant, sometimes I'm asked questions about Venezuela, the business climate, etc.

I think you'll find it's easier to educate yourself if you read Human Rights Watch and Amnesty international reports about Venezuela. I suggest you do your own search reading about Maria Lourdes Afiuni.

I have seen the evolution of radical autocracy (left and right) over the years to take on a veneer of democracy and lip services to human rights. Venezuela's autocratic regime has emphasized in the past creating such a cover. This was really helped because the Chavez regime did have a huge surge in cash income during his tenancy in the presidential palace. But his heir, Maduro, has inherited a terrible economy, faces lower oil prices, lower oil production, and a country in debt. There's high inflation, crime, corruption, and to make matters worse it seems the Maduro regime is fairly well controlled by the Cuban dictatorship. The Cubans are smart, but they have their own divisions, between the Fidel Marxist faction and Raul's Fascist/militarist side.

Thus the puppet, Maduro, is getting mixed signals from his mentors and he also faces two rebel groups within his ranks. One is the fascist mafia led by Cabello, the other is the misterious group which appears to be led by a Chavez family member with power inside the Venezuelan secret police. This third group has been hacking computers used by the other Chavistas and has taped their conversations. So now we are starting to see the inner workings of the regime out in the clear. We even have a recording of a high level chavista admitting to murder, and there are lots of corruption leads.

There is also a very interesting statement being passed around, it's Mario Silva discussing his personal talk with Fidel Castro. Apparently Fidel told Mario he didn't agree with Chavez' use of elections because the people could vote the wrong way. Fidel wanted Chavez to get rid of elections, but Chavez thought he would always win. Then Chavez died. And it sure looks like Maduro lost and stole the election using fraud.

And this is about as long as I can write to teach you right now. Do more searching and thinking, and learn.

later interestingly, the constant hammering on behalf of Afiuni seems to have had effect....Venezuela's attorney general said she would be reducing her charges against Afiuni. The European Union Parliament voted for her release, as has the UN human rights commissioner, persecuting the woman was Chavez' idea...now that he's dead the reputation of the new regime is in play, and they seem to be changing course....maybe they'll reduce the human rights abuses.
#14250491
Social_Critic wrote:...And it sure looks like Maduro lost and stole the election using fraud.


"Honor Venezuela's Election; Maduro Won Fair and Square," Daniel Kovalik - Post Gazette, April 30, 2013, http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/8940.

I just returned from Venezuela where I was one of 170 international election observers from around the world... What we found was a transparent, reliable, well-run and thoroughly audited electoral system...

What has been barely mentioned by the U.S. mainstream press is that over 54 percent of the voting machines in the April 14 election have been audited to ensure that the electronic votes match the back-up paper receipts. This was done in the presence of witnesses from both the governing and opposition parties right in the local polling places. I witnessed such an audit, and the Venezuelan electoral commission has since agreed to audit 100 percent of the ballots...


Here is a perfect example of the uncertainty of the evidence when it comes to current affairs. You make this assertion about Maduro's election, so I did some research, and I found this article. I am sure that you can dismiss the author as some kind of biased leftist. You may cite your own sources, showing that there was intimidation of voters, fraud, and so on. I will of course suspect your sources of being slanted to the right of the spectrum, just as you will likely suspect mine of an opposite bias. In the meantime, what about facts?

Take this assertion that the contest was monitored by "170 international election observers." Wikipedia repeats this assertion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan ... it_demands), but is careful in their phrasing: "According to the Venezuelan National Electoral Council, 170 foreign observers were invited to witness the election." A loophole is left, just in case this assertion of the CNE (Consejo Nacional Electoral) turns out to be less than accurate. The reference Wikipedia uses is a CNN article by Catherine E. Shoichet, "Venezuelan Opposition Candidate Demands Recount," April 15, 2013, http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/14/world/ame ... index.html. Shoichet uses the same kind of indecisive language: "Venezuela's National Electoral Council says 170 foreigners have been invited..."

And so, were there 170 observers, or not? I suppose it depends if you trust the CNE. I am sure that the right-wingers do not trust it, but then again, is it likely that the CNE would just invent this? Besides, even if there were 170 observers, that does not mean the election was on the up and up. Look at "Venezuela: Timidity and Sub-Standard Election Observation," April 9, 2013, by Javier El-Hage and Thor Halvorssen, http://www.americasquarterly.org/venezu ... bservation. These guys do not care if there is to be 170 observers or 1,700, because if the OAS is not allowed to participate, then the election is illegitimate.

By excluding the OAS from creating an electoral observation mission and inviting UNASUR to accompany the process, the government of Venezuela makes it clear once again that it has no interest in allowing independent international monitoring of its electoral processes...


This was published five days before the election. Maybe the CNE eventually relented and invited in the OAS. In the effort to investigate this, I found something interesting in the Times, "Venezuela Gives Chávez Protégé Narrow Victory," William Neuman, April 14, 2013, http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/world ... d=all&_r=0.

Bill Richardson, the former governor of New Mexico, who was in Caracas as a representative of the Organization of American States, said in an interview that Mr. Maduro called him aside after a meeting of election observers on Saturday and asked him to carry a message...


At this point, I am thoroughly confused. It seems fairly certain that there were indeed 170 observers, but more importantly, were they impartial and fair in their observations? It is suggested in one of the above quotes that the OAS would have provided such impartial observation, but that the CNE would not allow them to participate, thus making the election suspect. Then I find out from the Times that the OAS did in fact participate, at least on some level, because they had a representative in Caracas. This is exactly the kind of problems that are created when we try clarify the evidence, before a proper documentary record is established.

Social_Critic, for all I know, you are right. Once the historical record is established, perhaps it will be revealed that Maduro really did steal the election. Maybe he will confess to this in a memoir later on down the road, just as Cruz confessed to his own shameful deception in the 1984 elections in Nicaragua. Without a solid historical record, unscrupulous propagandists are able to claim whatever they want, and it is extremely difficult to verify these claims.

I have noticed that you completely ignored all my comments on Cruz and Ortega. I suspect that this is because here we have a historical record, and so it is more difficult to make dubious assertions. However, although it is difficult to verify your assertion about election fraud in 2013 on a factual level, I can make an educated guess about its probability. Your assertion sounds a lot like the criticism of the 1984 Nicaraguan elections, which the New York Times denounced as a "sham." Now we know better. The LASA report is certainly more accurate when it describes the election as "a model of probity and fairness." After all, they correctly understood what Arturo Cruz was up to, which Cruz himself later verified in public statements.

I wonder how your own assertions will measure up 20 or 30 years from now, when compared with the established facts of the historical record? Do you think it is possible that you have been deceived, just as the Times was deceived in their evaluations about the 1984 elections in Nicaragua?
#14250494
I don't know about Maduro but I liked Chavez
For one he gave the Venezuelan oil fields to the rightful owners
The Venezuelan people
Now if Maduro could just give the means of production for people to manage instead of the government commanding the economy it'd be a step towards a more genuine socialist state.
I doubt he will though, but overall I'd say it has been a net positive.
#14250834
Pants-of-dog wrote:Definitely a double standard.

Putin is far more oppressive than Chavez but people actually applaud his measures.


I don't know who is applauding Putin nowadays. But you know, I saw a video of Kim Yong Un on a boat by a North Korean beach, and a mass of nearly hysterical adoring Koreans crying and begging for the fat boy's blessing. It was comical and yet so scary to think these absolute rulers can create so much fear in the population...

The guy who wrote the OP put too much material, I'm used to this type of complaint. I made it in the past when discussing Israel versus Palestine.

... But I don't see much bias in this case. The USA media tends to ignore the subject. The UK has the Guardian providing cover for the Chavistas. In Spain El Pais is a leftist paper which turned against them after the Cubans set them up with a fake photo. But I think the key message is the huge flow of defensive propaganda being used by the Venecuban actors. I see so much of the same cut and paste material both in English and Spanish, all of it in very long posts, I think it's an organized project. Hell it may be three or four Cubans working really hard in a room in Havana.
#14250838
ronimacarroni wrote:I don't know about Maduro but I liked Chavez
For one he gave the Venezuelan oil fields to the rightful owners
The Venezuelan people
Now if Maduro could just give the means of production for people to manage instead of the government commanding the economy it'd be a step towards a more genuine socialist state.
I doubt he will though, but overall I'd say it has been a net positive.


Overall I'd say you do need to spend some time discussing the subject with me. By the time I finish opening your eyes you'll be ready to wear a maduro sucks t shirt.

For example, the bit about the oilfields is all wrong. What exactly did you read and where? I can reveal the truth to you and it will drop your jaw.
#14250958
Social_Critic wrote:I don't know who is applauding Putin nowadays..... Hell it may be three or four Cubans working really hard in a room in Havana.


I was not replying to you.

------------------------------

I assume that the reason for the double standard is basic money: if you're right wing, then you're fine, but if you're left wing, you're an oppressor.

I think it has to do with this US mindset that equates libertarianism with the right, which is an attempt to frame the "freedom" debate only in economic terms.
#14251033
Pants, it all depends where you sit. Take Israel versus Palestine. That's not really a left or right issue, right? But we see a lot of bias. Agree?

I see bias all the time. And I see it in my favor as well as against my position. But I don't think the USA media is being particularly negative about the Venezuelan regime. If we consider the way they pal around with the Iranians, I'm surprised they haven't been demonized much more.

I happen to see what's going on close up, and I see Venezuela being destroyed and handed over to the Cuban dictatorship. Which I know is moving towards a Chinese style capitalism. I have relatives in Cuba, and I saw the Cubans in Venezuela and how controlled things with my own eyes. So the USA media isn't half way to where I am. These guys who took power last December when Chavez went under the Cuban knives in Havana are really bad guys.
#14251034
This whole idea of demonising leftist democracies worked so well during the Cold War (i.e. everyone believed that the reasons for US involvement were "to keep the Russians at bay") that they probably just kept going with it.
#14251038
Social_Critic wrote:
Overall I'd say you do need to spend some time discussing the subject with me. By the time I finish opening your eyes you'll be ready to wear a maduro sucks t shirt.

For example, the bit about the oilfields is all wrong. What exactly did you read and where? I can reveal the truth to you and it will drop your jaw.

So who does the Venezuelan oilfields belong to now?
Also according to statistics Venezuela's human development index went up throughout Chavez terms
#14251084
I'll discuss the human development index later...

Oil industry background

Venezuela nationalized the oil industry in 1976. The constitution includes a clause which states all oil reserves belong to the state. The state designated PDVSA as the oil industry operator.

Around 1990 when prices were low Venezuela started issuing service contracts to private oil companies. Under the contract terms the companies took old oil fields and refurbished them, produced oil and handed it over to PDVSA. Because PDVSA owned the oil legally the sale was a custody transfer used to measure the contractors reward. Te price paid was based on a formula, which took into account the contractors expenses. There were variants called strategic associations which did allow the foreign companies to lift a share of the oil. These were for the oil belt properties which produced oil with a terrible quality similar to Alberta Tar Sands oil. From 2005 to 2007 the contracts were changed to a new joint venture structure. PDVSA created subsidiaries and the foreign companies received stock. This in a sense gave them more ownership of the oil because now they owed shares in the company owning the oilfield.

Why did Exxon and ConocoPhillips walk? The new arrangement lacked international arbitration. They didn't trust the Chavez regime. The others stayed, but BP sold its shares to the Russians and after a complex deal it owns a share of Rosneft, Rosneft in turn owns shares in several operating joint ventures.

The oil has never been the people's...the state collects royalties, PDVSA gets its share, and the multinationals get theirs. PDVSA employees don't get paid well. The government does have more money, but that's because oil prices are a lot higher. I consulted for PDVSA and I found it to be corrupt and incompetent. They don't follow the law in many instances.

Because PDVSA is incompetent and its management spends so much time on political activities production is lower. They also have serious refinery problems and have to import finished products to make gasoline. They import from USA refiners. They have a lot of attrition because of low salaries, political persecution of non Chavistas and a poor professional culture: they are taught to be yes men, loyal to the party line, and in general it's an organization full of pathological lies. I've never seen anything that bad sitting on so much crappy hard to extract oil.

So there you are. Now tell us how is the human development index estimated? We can discuss that.
#14251947
Social_Critic wrote:I see bias all the time. And I see it in my favor as well as against my position. But I don't think the USA media is being particularly negative about the Venezuelan regime. If we consider the way they pal around with the Iranians, I'm surprised they haven't been demonized much more.


Have you compared Venezuela to its neighbors, or the rest of Latin America? Earlier, you brought up Maria Lourdes Afiuni. What happened to her was terrible. This was definitely an abuse of power on the part of Chavez. It is important to maintain an independent judiciary, and judges should not be pressured and intimidated in this way. However, I wonder if you are as upset by the intimidation of judges in Columbia?

Check out "A Legal Wasteland – Lawyers, Murder, Democracy, and Justice in Colombia," by Liam Whittington, December 4, 2011, http://www.coha.org/a-legal-wasteland-% ... -colombia/.

On May 25, 2011, Avocats Sans Frontieres Canada and the Colombian Caravana UK Lawyers Group launched a report detailing the findings of a visit to Colombia by an international caravana of lawyers... Their report painted a damning picture of the Colombian legal system, establishing that “there continues to be a large number of assassinations of and threats against Colombian lawyers, human rights defenders and trade unionists, indications of the continued violent activity of former members of paramilitary groups and challenges to accessing justice by victims”... Aside from outright violence, the delegation reported that the stigmatizing and discrediting of lawyers, judges, and human rights defenders is still common and that state authorities often have few inhibitions against undermining the work of human rights lawyers and criticizing judicial rulings...


Or take a look at "One Judicial Official Murdered Every Month in Colombia," by Toni Peters, March 26, 2011, http://colombiareports.com/one-judicial ... -colombia/.

287 Colombian judicial officers have been assassinated and hundreds more were subjected to violence and intimidation over the past 20 years, the association of judicial employees said Friday.

Over the past two decades, 750 officers of the judiciary have been threatened (220 in the last four years alone), 42 have been kidnapped, 39 are missing, 39 have been forced into exile and 31 were forced to relocate.

The most recent attack, the murder of Judge Gloria Constanza Gaona on March 22, prompted the National Association of Employees of the Judicial Branch (Asonal Judicial) to call a national day of protest with a demonstration which took place in Bogota Friday.


I had never heard of Judge Gaona, before doing this research. Of course, I had heard of Afiuni, but I also needed to research this before it came back to me. To check out Afiuni was easy - one simple google-search and it was all there. On the other hand, try typing in Gloria Constanza Gaona, and you will see that you get many fewer relevant hits in English. Look at my sources for the intimidation of the judiciary in Columbia. One is from Columbiareports.com, based out of Medellin, the other is from the website for the Council on Hemispheric Relations. I would have prefered to quote the New York Times, but it seems that the Times does not care about the murder and intimidation of judges in Columbia. They certainly do care about Afiuni. There are multiple stories on her. No one cares about the independence of the Columbian judiciary, on the other hand.

This is a double standard. When it comes to our officially designated enemy, Venezuela, we are very concerned. When it comes to our own client state of Columbia, no one seems to care.
#14251971
I spent years living in Venezuela, have friends there. I also consulted for PDVSA. And I saw what was going on closeup. I can discuss with confidence what I know very well.

Now you bring an interesting point....but it was you who surged to defend Venezuela . And I see way too many of you chanting hymns to that son of a whore Hugo Chavez. I don't praise Colombian presidents. Nor do we see here in PoFo anybody singing and praising Uribe.

So my friend, it was you who chose to walk in here, where I wait for your kind to appear. You won't feed any bullshit I can't counter. Stick to the topic, and you are a disaster.
#14251980
Yes, the western media as a whole tends to ignore all the horrors done by right wing gov'ts in Latin America.

As well ignoring Colombia's continuing oppression and drug violence, they also ignore Chile's use of anti-terror laws to oppress indigenous activists, the disappearances of people in Mexico, and Peru's use of military courts to reduce military accountability.

But you know, VENEZUELA!!
#14252270
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, the western media as a whole tends to ignore all the horrors done by right wing gov'ts in Latin America.

As well ignoring Colombia's continuing oppression and drug violence, they also ignore Chile's use of anti-terror laws to oppress indigenous activists, the disappearances of people in Mexico, and Peru's use of military courts to reduce military accountability.

But you know, VENEZUELA!!


You would have to show a systematic march towards dictatorship as we see in Venezuela to say those are comparable. The interesting fact is that Peru is ruled by a leftist, Chile is a thriving democracy where parties switch in and out of power, and the same applies to Mexico. Venezuela on the other hand has a very high number of human rights abuses, a non working democracy with no separation of powers, and are now being colonized by the Cuban dictatorship. I got the feeling your definition of "ok" is Stalinist and/or evil dictatorship, that is Castro or Kim Yong style.
#14253275
Social_Critic wrote:I think you'll find it's easier to educate yourself if you read Human Rights Watch and Amnesty international reports about Venezuela...


Presumably, you think that HRW is a trustworthy observer of events in Venezuela, and that their findings are reliable. Very well. Let's accept this for the sake of argument. If HRW is unbiased and objective when it comes to Venezuela, then it is likely that their reports on other countries, such as Colombia, will also be reliable and accurate. Let's compare Columbia and Venezuela, using one standard of measure. You invited this approach yourself, when you cited HRW as an authority on events in Venezuela. I repeat, if they are reliable and authoritative when it comes to one country, then we should probably trust the data that they provide on other nations. Check out "World Report 2012: Colombia" (http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/colombia).

Colombia's internal armed conflict continued to result in serious abuses by irregular armed groups in 2011, including guerrillas and successor groups to paramilitaries. Violence has displaced millions of Colombians internally, and continues to displace tens of thousands every year. Armed actors frequently threaten or attack human rights defenders, journalists, community leaders, teachers, trade unionists, indigenous and Afro-Colombian leaders, displaced persons' leaders, and paramilitaries' victims seeking land restitution or justice.


The political situation in Colombia is apparently quite appalling. Thanks to Wikileaks, we can assign a precise figure to all the terror and abuse. Check out "2009-2010 International Narcotics Control Strategy Report," a U.S. Embassy Cable from Bogota, November 19, 2009 (http://cablegatesearch.wikileaks.org/ca ... 2&q=257-89).

While the Justice and Peace process has yet to produce a conviction, 1,926 confessions of demobilized paramilitary members have been taken; 32,909 crimes confessed - the vast majority murders; 2,666 victim remains exhumed, and 257,089 victims registered.


287,089 victims! There is nothing even approaching this level of terror and intimidation going on in Venezuela.

HRW has always been extremely critical of Chavez. See “A Decade Under Chavez: Political Intolerance and Lost Opportunities for Advancing Human Rights in Venezuela,” November 18, 2008 (http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2008/09/1 ... der-ch-vez). In response, over 100 experts on Latin America signed an open letter to HRW, criticizing the findings and demanding that the report be corrected (http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4051). Kenneth Roth, executive director of HRW, attempted to respond to these criticisms in his own letter (http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4105).

Kenneth Roth wrote:...To make your point, you isolate a single case of a woman purportedly denied medicines on political grounds, and claim falsely that it is the “only alleged instance of discrimination in government services cited in the entire 230-page report.” We actually provide three such cases that we documented ourselves, while also referencing a 2005 report by the Inter-American Commission of Human Rights that concluded, on the basis of hundreds of cases of alleged discrimination, that a “new discriminatory pattern” in the awarding of “work and public services” had emerged in Venezuela.


One case - "the only alleged instance of discrimination in government services cited in the entire 230-page report" - that is the criticism. In response, Roth manages to dig up a whole two other cases, although he does not tell us precisely on what page these two other cases are documented in his report, and people have been unable to locate them (see "Academics Respond to Human Rights Watch Director's Defense of Venezuela Report," http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/4106). But whatever, let's give him the two other cases. If there really is "a new discriminatory pattern" emerging in Venezuela, then it ought to be possible to document more than three cases. But let's give him this one as well. How does a few hundred cases of "alleged discrimination" in government services and employment compare to 287,089 documented victims of paramilitary violence?!? According to their own 2012 World Report, "violence has displaced millions of Colombians internally, and continues to displace tens of thousands every year." That is much worse than a "discriminatory pattern" in public services. That is a homicidal pattern - what's going on in Colombia sounds like genocide, in fact.

How does Roth defend what seems to be a double standard? How does he justify his harsh evaluation of Venezuela? The problem for him is that "Chávez’s approach to democratic rule has come to be regarded as a model by many." But is it really such a bad model? Surely Venezuela is a better model than Colombia, after all.

Social_Critic, I never said that you "praise Colombian presidents" or accused of you of "singing and praising Uribe." But you are silent on these matters, and if you really want to talk about a society where we can see "a systematic march towards dictatorship," then you ought to be talking about Colombia. The fact that you single out Venezuela suggests a double standard. The situation in Colombia is much, much worse.
#14253926
I don't think you do get it...I lived in Venezuela. I saw what happened with my own eyes. You are using a fairly well known and worn out tactic, to divert attention. I suggest you try writing your posts a bit shorter, maybe somebody else will bite. Given the OP was defending this rotten, corrupt regime in Venezuela, I'd rather point out wat it is....and now to compound their sins, it turns out Maduro is a Cuban puppet and isn't even born in Venezuela - he's from Colombia and legally can't be president.
#14254557
Social_Critic wrote:I don't think you do get it...I lived in Venezuela. I saw what happened with my own eyes. You are using a fairly well known and worn out tactic, to divert attention. I suggest you try writing your posts a bit shorter, maybe somebody else will bite. Given the OP was defending this rotten, corrupt regime in Venezuela, I'd rather point out w[h]at it is....


You are correct. I am trying to divert the conversation. I do not believe that Venezuela deserves all of this attention. If you are concerned about fascism and terror in South America, then you need to focus your attention on Columbia. That is where all the murder and terrorism is happening right now. What is happening in Venezuela is not even closely comparable.

You obviously have an irrational and ideologically motivated hatred of Chavez:

...this rotten, corrupt regime in Venezuela...


...a systematic march towards dictatorship as we see in Venezuela...


...that son of a whore Hugo Chavez...


You claim to have personal experience with Venezuela. Perhaps you are so personally invested in these events that it is impossible for you to evaluate them objectively. Perhaps you are a just another anonymous ideologue on the internet who does not really know what you are talking about. In any case, you show a poor command of the established facts.

I am sorry that my posts are so long. I try to cover all of the facts of the situation, and I like to provide documentation for my sources. Other people simply assert, "I lived in Venezuela," and that is supposed to be the end of the conversation. Those people can write posts that are nice and short, because they do not feel the need to support their claims with evidence.

Here is some more evidence, Social_Critic, which I am sure that you will ignore (you can simply skip all of this boring stuff, if it is too difficult for you).

Once again, I will quote from "A Decade Under Chávez - Political Intolerance and Lost Opportunities for Advancing Human Rights in Venezuela," September 18, 2008. It was you, Social_Critic, who drew my attention to Human Rights Watch as a credible source of information on Venezuela. I refer you to the section on the media, where you can find the following buried in the footnotes on page 73 (footnote 181).

Although state media have proliferated in recent years, their audience figures remain consistently low in comparison with the commercial channels. Between 2002 and 2006, all the state channels put together were being watched by less than 6 percent of the television audience, whereas RCTV alone had an average audience share of more than 30 percent. The migration of RCTV to cable following the non-renewal of its broadcasting license has scarcely altered this picture. In March 2008, VTV’s audience share was less than 4 percent, whereas RCTV’s was above 13 percent despite the fact that only about a quarter of Venezuelan households have access to cable...


In Colombia, there really is no such a thing as an opposition media, because if you try to organize something like that then you are simply murdered. If a popular opposition TV station like RCTV was suspected of being involved in a coup against the government, they would not simply have had their license pulled, and they would not then be allowed to broadcast on cable. They would be shot.

You really are ungrateful for the civil liberties that the citizens of Venezuela have enjoyed under Chavez. The opposition was given, and is still given, great freedom to express their views. For example, Rafael Poleo, editor of El Nuevo Pais, said on a Globovisión talk show that "Hugo is going to end up like Mussolini, hung with his head towards the floor" (
). Was Globovisión shut down, or were the editors of El Nuevo Pais assassinated? Has Unión Radio been shut down? What about El Universal, El Nacional, or Tal Cual? RCTV is still allowed to operate on cable, and they command a greater share of the audience than state TV! The opposition not only has a voice, they actually dominate the conversation. Do you think Uribe would have allowed this?

If we compare Venezuela to Colombia, or to any other nation in the region, or even to political discourse in the US itself, then Venezuela comes out looking pretty good. Look at case of the Sinclair Broadcast Group of Maryland, which was threatened with the loss of their license and had to back off of a plan to show an anti-John Kerry documentary during prime-time hours, two weeks before the 2004 elections. That is nothing compared to RCTV's interference in electoral politics. Do you think the Sinclair Broadcast Group would be allowed to retain their license for five years after they were actively involved in a coup, as RCTV is accused of? In the US, even cable broadcasters are subject to certain restrictions regarding electoral campaigns, whereas in Venezuela they are not, and so RCTV continues to operate on cable with impunity.

This one example, the freedom enjoyed by the opposition media in Venezuela, proves that you do not know what you are talking about.
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