[XogGyux]

This is true of most developing countries. Kissing tourist ass pays better than serving your own people with the basic services of life.

The difference is that Cuba has tons and tons of medically-trained people, while capitalist third-world tourist-ass-kissers have only their drivers licenses and no other "unnecessary for the 1%" skills.

I struggle to see your point. Please clarify.

[QatzelOk]

I struggle to see your point. Please clarify.

In all third world countries, people will do what they can to get tourist dollars.

In Cuba, there are so many doctors, that the person driving the tourist might also be a qualified doctor. In other third world countries, this won't happen because there is a terrible shortage of doctors. It's not because in other third-world countries everyone is too rich to care about tourism. There just aren't any extra doctors lying around.

Having extra doctors is EXCELLENT. Only communist countries with revolutionary medecine can accomplish this. Rich countries only have a lot of doctors because they steal them from third world countries that really, really need them.

Your "point" is actually a really good one regarding how poor late-stage capitalism is at creating doctors and teachers. All it can care about is money, so it tends to steal all the social cash and give it to banksters instead.

[XogGyux]

In all third world countries, people will do what they can to get tourist dollars.

In Cuba, there are so many doctors, that the person driving the tourist might also be a qualified doctor. In other third world countries, this won't happen because there is a terrible shortage of doctors. It's not because in other third-world countries everyone is too rich to care about tourism. There just aren't any extra doctors lying around.

Having extra doctors is EXCELLENT. Only communist countries with revolutionary medecine can accomplish this. Rich countries only have a lot of doctors because they steal them from third world countries that really, really need them.

Your "point" is actually a really good one regarding how poor late-stage capitalism is at creating doctors and teachers. All it can care about is money, so it tends to steal all the social cash and give it to banksters instead.

Dude. What you are talking is ridiculous. You clearly have very limited information about Cuba and that's OK because most of the world do, it has been designed on purpose in this way. But please don't make the mistake of simply repeating whatever propaganda you hear. I know it is easy to see our shortcomings, certainly rampant capitalism can expose all of our moral defects but what you are defending does not exist and does not deserve defense.

The reason why Cuba has a lot of doctors is because the goverment designed as such in a wimp without caring for the consequences of doing such idiocy. First of all, the medicine career in Cuba is not particularly competitive. Until very recently, when you got out of 9th grade and are in the process of moving into higher education you are presented with 2 major pathways. One pathway is traditional highschool and the second pathway includes technological school and vocational schools. Technological and vocational school were more desirable (yes, shocker) because they did not require you to go to a boarding school in the middle of the countryside and work under the sun picking up potato for half of the day in sub-human conditions. Of those two, technological schools were the most desirables as they could lead to more profitable jobs with computer systems, telecommunications, etc and could give you access to some perks (internet, communication with family outside of cuba, etc) not to mention the main perk which was to not go to the countryside. Vocational schools also included industry of tourism and commerce which was also slightly more lucrative and you could get some tips in dollars and as such in high demand.

As a result those that went into 10-11-12th grade, for the most part had the lower grades and educational achievement. After 12 grade you choose again. Nobody is particularly happy to choose anything at this point given that nothing actually pays for shit. The main driving force for people to go into careers at this point is the looming threat of military service. You'd see, by the time you finish high-school you are usually 16-18 years, and once you become 18 you have to go to compulsatory military service. I do not remember how long it is but ~2 years if I remember correctly. This, however, can be deferred for a while depending on the career you choose and your gender. I honestly do not remember the minutia but the whole point is, many students that otherwise would simply drop from higher education (after all, it does not really change your income if you are a doctor or a janitor by too much) end up doing so to avoid this.

My mother attended medical school in the late 1970's and early 1980's. She always tells the story that she abhorred medicine (I believe her, she cannot put a shot, do a pelvic/rectal examination, put stiches or even look at blood) but she chose that career because it was the one with the LOWEST required entry-level grades so that my dad (her boyfriend at that time) could have a chance at getting the same career and they could continue going to the same school. How fking ridiculous it is that medicine, one of the most respected and desired careers in most other countries, one of the hardest and more demanding, had one of the lowest entry-level grade requirements (fun fact, my dad had such bad grades that he could not even get into med-school. He ended up going into tourist industry and he was by far the bread winner at my house, making 20-30 times as much as my mother LOL).

My mother was trained by doctors that were in part trained before the revolution or very soon after so back then the education was actually pretty good. Even today, after 15+ years out of practice she can manage to lecture me on a few topics and im fresh out of school . That being said, the last few batches of doctors that were coming out during the last few years before I moved here were not really very well educated. In fact, I'd say the ones I met were straight ignorant and not just medicine but everything. Had no knowledge about ancient civilizations, history, one did not even know paris was the capital of france. This is not the legacy of an educational/medical powerhouse, this is the remnants of what remains from one... one that existed 50+ years ago prior to Fidel ruining everything.

So you'd see, this is way more complicated than just extrapolating our "Western world" lenses into Cuban problems. What you see is nothing but a mirage because Cuba's problems are not the same as our problems. What you see in Cuba is totally abnormal because it was designed to be like that.

If you like Cuba so much, I dare you to get rid of your earthly possessions and go live there LIKE A CUBAN. Not cushy retirement.

[QatzelOk]

You clearly have very limited information about Cuba and that's OK because most of the world do, it has been designed on purpose in this way. But please don't make the mistake of simply repeating whatever propaganda you hear.

I've been to Cuba three times in the last 12 months. And I have read as much about Cuban history as I could before and during each visit.

So the "propaganda" that you are seeing me write here in this thread is my own. I haven't "heard" it anywhere else. I watched the new Cuban constitution come together on Cuban television, along with everyone else in Cuba. And I watched and saw how their system works.

Cuban's live longer than Americans, and Cuba has been able to export thousands of doctors that have extended the lifespan and quality of life of millions.

Why does the USA have a shorter lifespan than Cuba? Americans have ten times as much opulence (Subway, Burger King, giant SUVs, supersized suburan mcmansions) and yet the USA is seeing a lower and lower lifespan and less and less academic performance. LIkewise, they defend their medical profession with lots of dollars, and no socialist principles.

Can you explain how Cubans have done so much with so little, or will you continue to bore this thread with your story about how "The Grinch stole Consumerism" from rich Cubans who all drove Cadillacs before Fidel spoiled everthing?

[XogGyux]

I've been to Cuba three times in the last 12 months. And I have read as much about Cuban history as I could before and during each visit.

So the "propaganda" that you are seeing me write here in this thread is my own. I haven't "heard" it anywhere else. I watched the new Cuban constitution come together on Cuban television, along with everyone else in Cuba. And I watched and saw how their system works.

Cuban's live longer than Americans, and Cuba has been able to export thousands of doctors that have extended the lifespan and quality of life of millions.

Why does the USA have a shorter lifespan than Cuba? Americans have ten times as much opulence (Subway, Burger King, giant SUVs, supersized suburan mcmansions) and yet the USA is seeing a lower and lower lifespan and less and less academic performance. LIkewise, they defend their medical profession with lots of dollars, and no socialist principles.

Can you explain how Cubans have done so much with so little, or will you continue to bore this thread with your story about how "The Grinch stole Consumerism" from rich Cubans who all drove Cadillacs before Fidel spoiled everthing?

Yet just about every Cuban would trade place with an American any time and the ones that wouldnt are because they are at the very top of the political chain and don't care or because they are whimsically ignorant.

Can you explain how Cubans have done so much with so little, or will you continue to bore this thread with your story about how "The Grinch stole Consumerism" from rich Cubans who all drove Cadillacs before Fidel spoiled everthing?

Lol what do you mean "have done so much" they have not done shit.

You are trying to use metrics that are not adequate. Life expectancy for one depends on a government actually reporting accurate data, that on itself is shady business when it comes to Cuba, the goverment is not known for its truthfulness. Then is the fact that in the US a large reason for our life expectancy drop is gun violence/suicide which disproportionally affect young people and obviously drops our numbers significantly. Other western countries do not have the same problem to the same degree, we are uniquely dumb for having guns everywhere. Perhaps it is because the population is starving , starving rats live longer.

You might have seen what they wanted you to see, not what the actual Cuban experience.

[skinster]

Where is the lie?

[QatzelOk]

Yet just about every Cuban would trade place with an American any time

This is true of any poorer country versus any wealthier country. Marie Antoinette used to laugh that any of the peasants would switch places with her if they could (and then the peasants happily chopped her smiling head off)

and the ones that wouldnt are because they are at the very top of the political chain and don't care or because they are whimsically ignorant.

Yes, your cold-war communist histeria is true, and anyone that doesn't fit into your narrative is kooky and dumb. There's no proof here. Just you recycling very old anti-others propaganda and then trying to explain why reality doesn't correspond to your tired old talking points.

Lol what do you mean "have done so much" they have not done shit.

This inability to recognize the accomplishments of the Communist revolution is a sign that all of your "knowledge" comes from the opinions of biased people you know who had an interest in the old corrupt mafia system. If you had done any reading of your own (or visited recently), you would have to acknowledge the amazing accomplishments of the revolution including the surplus of doctors, and top of the line education system for all.

You might have seen what they wanted you to see, not what the actual Cuban experience.

The Cuban experience that seems to be your only source, is NOT the experience of a majority of Cubans.
And your knowledge and opinion of Cuban society seems second hand and emotional. Useless really. The Third World (most of the earth) can learn a lot from the Cuban revolution, though rich people have a lot to fear from this kind of equality and public participation in governance.

[XogGyux]

This is true of any poorer country versus any wealthier country. Marie Antoinette used to laugh that any of the peasants would switch places with her if they could (and then the peasants happily chopped her smiling head off)

That is not true. First and more importantly, the freedom and democracy people have in their country are extremely important. In Cuba, there is very little at all of that.

This inability to recognize the accomplishments of the Communist revolution is a sign that all of your "knowledge" comes from the opinions of biased people you know who had an interest in the old corrupt mafia system. If you had done any reading of your own (or visited recently), you would have to acknowledge the amazing accomplishments of the revolution including the surplus of doctors, and top of the line education system for all.

You bet your ass I'm biased. After 2 decades of living in that shithole not as a tourist but as an actual citizen, I can recognize my bias. That is not to say that what I am saying is inaccurate or untrue. You go 2-3 times, spend a few hundred dollars and sleep in Cohiba or Habana Libre, or International or perhaps spend a weekend in Varadero and somehow you think you know how the people there live. Not only that is ignorant but insulting in the top of everything. The most amazing accomplishment of "the revolution" is its ability to still brainwash brains, like those of their citizens and now you.

The Cuban experience that seems to be your only source, is NOT the experience of a majority of Cubans.

No, my experience was FAR above that of all Cubans. For one, I lived in a very spacious and luxurious (by Cuban standards anyway) apartments in Vedado, Havana, 2 blocks from FOCSA building, Coppelia, Yara Cinema. My family had a Car that worked, something most Cubans do not have and we had access to American Dollars, again something that most Cubans do not have either. SO if anything I had a far better life than the average Cuban and still manage to realize the plenty of shortcomings of their shitty system.

Yes, your cold-war communist history is true, and anyone that doesn't fit into your narrative is kooky and dumb. There's no proof here. Just you recycling very old anti-others propaganda and then trying to explain why reality doesn't correspond to your tired old talking points.

I call your BS and raise you 100. Have you ever eaten Beef? Maybe you are one of those vegetarians or vegan but you technically have the freedom (assuming you live in a western country) to go to the store and buy some beef if you want. Did you know that in Cuba if you got caught with red meat can potentially end up spending a few decades in prison. Yes, they treat cattle slaughtering, and beef meat dealing as if it was cocaine or heroine in Cuba. You could get a higher sentence for killing a cow and selling beef than if you actually killed an actual person. Do you think those at the top have such restrictions? Absolutely not, they have access to all of it. Please, the BS you are talking about is unmeasurable.

And your knowledge and opinion of Cuban society seems second hand and emotional.

If by second hand you mean being born there and lived close to 2 decades... How do you fking dare to dismiss my statements as "second hand" when this is information you can actually look up for yourself. You go there as a tourist a couple of times, habana libre, international hotel, varadero, tropicana and all of the sudden you are a specialist on communism.

[QatzelOk]

That is not true. First and more importantly, the freedom and democracy people have in their country are extremely important. In Cuba, there is very little at all of that.

But there are lots of doctors, and lots of teachers. The freedom to deny people education and healthcare was removed.

You bet your ass I'm biased. After 2 decades of living in that shithole not as a tourist but as an actual citizen, I can recognize my bias. That is not to say that what I am saying is inaccurate or untrue. You go 2-3 times, spend a few hundred dollars and sleep in Cohiba or Habana Libre, or International or perhaps spend a weekend in Varadero and somehow you think you know how the people there live.

I spent my time in a village, off of the resorts, and traveling by bike through the countryside. I won't pretend to know "how the people live there," but I don't pretend to "know" that Cuba would be a paradise if it had remained under the thumb of American capital - like you do. You pretend to know "the future that would have been." All I am witnessing is that Cuba is no "shithole" ... whatever that means.

I prefered Holguin province to the suburbs of San Francisco, even though suburban San Francisco has infinite cash sloshing around. As far as social life and public space goes, San Francisco is more of a "shithole."

Also, as far as sustainable development goes, the way we live in North America is going to crash whatever our ideology or personal preferences are. Your imagining of "dream Cuba with Batista and the mafia in charge" doesn't account for the ecological crises or unfolding collapse of capitalist countries all over the world. It doesn't account for the fact that rich countries got to be so by destroying smaller nations like Cuba (and Haiti, and Guatemala, and Niger, and Mail, and Libya, and Vietnam..."

Cuba actually uses its doctors to help other countries, and its military to help foreign countries to secure their freedom from Western pariahhood.

You have so far provided a beautiful and moving eulogy for pariahs that is based on a fake reality (the golden capitalist future of Cuba) that you think can be defended by "I lived in Cuba for 20 years, therefore I know what's best for the country."

Hey, lots of white landlords left Rhodesia thinking they knew better than foreign "equality for black African" supporters. But their bias poisons their objectivity and makes their opinions useless to anyone trying to understand the true path to collective well being.

[XogGyux]

But there are lots of doctors, and lots of teachers. The freedom to deny people education and healthcare was removed.

Again, that means absolutely nothing. Doctors are only as good as their training and experience and judging by the last couple of decades that quality has dropped significantly. Not to mention that without resources they might as well be cheerleaders. Other than telling you "don't drink this, don't eat that, exercise" (which any mother can do for free and without training) a doctor can do nothing without other resources such as medicines, equipment, access to evidence-based medicine (journals). Cuba has very little of those.
And don't get me started with teachers. Did you even bother reading my previous post? A 30" screen tv with rabbit-ear antenna and poor reception is not "lots of teachers".
Here, this is the kind of "teacher" that a typical Cuban student would have except over a tiny tv with poor reception
http://www.cubaeduca.cu/media/www.cubae ... do_14.html

I spent my time in a village, off of the resorts, and traveling by bike through the countryside. I won't pretend to know "how the people live there," but I don't pretend to "know" that Cuba would be a paradise if it had remained under the thumb of American capital - like you do. You pretend to know "the future that would have been." All I am witnessing is that Cuba is no "shithole" ... whatever that means.

I prefered Holguin province to the suburbs of San Francisco, even though suburban San Francisco has infinite cash sloshing around. As far as social life and public space goes, San Francisco is more of a "shithole."

Also, as far as sustainable development goes, the way we live in North America is going to crash whatever our ideology or personal preferences are. Your imagining of "dream Cuba with Batista and the mafia in charge" doesn't account for the ecological crises or unfolding collapse of capitalist countries all over the world. It doesn't account for the fact that rich countries got to be so by destroying smaller nations like Cuba (and Haiti, and Guatemala, and Niger, and Mail, and Libya, and Vietnam..."

Cuba actually uses its doctors to help other countries, and its military to help foreign countries to secure their freedom from Western pariahhood.

You have so far provided a beautiful and moving eulogy for pariahs that is based on a fake reality (the golden capitalist future of Cuba) that you think can be defended by "I lived in Cuba for 20 years, therefore I know what's best for the country."

Hey, lots of white landlords left Rhodesia thinking they knew better than foreign "equality for black African" supporters. But their bias poisons their objectivity and makes their opinions useless to anyone trying to understand the true path to collective well being.

Yeah, it is funny how many people "enjoy" a few days safari in Africa, or a few weeks in the Amazon or a quick trip to the Saharan desert or Everest. It is easy to endure the hardest conditions when you know you have the freedom to leave at any point, that your life is not going to be limited to that part of the world and you go with the resources you need or want. Going as a tourist to Cuba is not the same as being born there and living as a Cuban. The place is a shithole that is slowly crumbling. I have no personal stake in that country anymore, I have no family left there, and I don't have some sort of nostalgia for it. I wish it the best as I would to any other country/people but my expectations are very limited. They are slightly more optimistic since Fidel gave power to Raul as I think Raul is a bit more democratic leaning and he, in turn, tried to make some changes. But countries don't change overnight without spilling blood, and Cuba is no exception, it will likely take decades before there is substantial, democratic change there. I would have been even more optimistic if either Obama started his changes earlier, or another Democratic president came after him as to continue to thawing of relationships. Our orange moron decided to go back simply out of spite for obama (it is clear it has nothing to do with human rights, if he cared a tiny bit about humans rights he would not be so cozy with russia, N. Korea and Saudi Arabia).

[QatzelOk]

Going as a tourist to Cuba is not the same as being born there...

Yes, but being biased (as you are) is very different from visiting somewhere with an open mind.

Your "history of Cuba" is just pure ideological spin delivered without sincerity or references, just copy and paste cold-war memes.

Here is an article about Cuban history that might fill in some of the blanks for you and others: Popular Democracy in Cuba

You whole schtick in this thread is that "Cuba sucks, so who cares about all those thousands of doctors they lend to other nations poor people." I wonder how many of their Brazilian patients refused treatment because of all those "poor little" rich white-skinned Cubans, many of whom "made their fortune" through corruption and mafia dealings.



"Nurse, remove the IV from my arm now! Martyring myself is the least I can do for all those wealthy, Cadillac-driving Cuban mafiosas who lost their stolen property during the popular revolution of the late 50s."
*loses consiousness as nurse places Monopoly property deeds over his eyes*

[XogGyux]

Yes, but being biased (as you are) is very different from visiting somewhere with an open mind.

Your "history of Cuba" is just pure ideological spin delivered without sincerity or references, just copy and paste cold-war memes.

Here is an article about Cuban history that might fill in some of the blanks for you and others: Popular Democracy in Cuba

You whole schtick in this thread is that "Cuba sucks, so who cares about all those thousands of doctors they lend to other nations poor people." I wonder how many of their Brazilian patients refused treatment because of all those "poor little" rich white-skinned Cubans, many of whom "made their fortune" through corruption and mafia dealings.



"Nurse, remove the IV from my arm now! Martyring myself is the least I can do for all those wealthy, Cadillac-driving Cuban mafiosas who lost their stolen property during the popular revolution of the late 50s."
*loses consiousness as nurse places Monopoly property deeds over his eyes*

I am too tired to debunk your non-sense now. Just reading your posts liquifies my poor brain. Just posted this so I could ask you: what "Your "history of Cuba" is just pure ideological spin delivered without sincerity or references, just copy and paste cold-war memes."? I don't think you followed the link or watched the video, I know they are in Spanish but for someone that knows so fking much about Cuba I am sure that is not a problem for you right?

Also:

Yes, but being biased (as you are) is very different from visiting somewhere with an open mind.

I already told you that I accept that I'm biased. I am biased because I grew up there and I hate that place because it is a shithole. So I don't understand why you keep saying that I am biased (and putting it parenthesis?). Being biased does not mean I am wrong.

[QatzelOk]

I am biased because I grew up there and I hate that place because it is a shithole. So I don't understand why you keep saying that I am biased (and putting it parenthesis?). Being biased does not mean I am wrong.

Being biased means that you're unable to give a well-rounded view of Cuba's operating system. Any useful info you might share is pre-marinated in self-interest and lost superiority.

As a tourist looking for a winter cycling destination, I did some research. I wanted the safest place in Latin America in which to bicycle, in the sense of low crime and as few cars as possible.

Everyone I know (tour guides, travellers, friends here in MTL from all over Latin America) recommended one place: Cuba.

Now, not worrying about being robbed or killed on the streets is important for tourists. But I believe that this is also important for the people of the nation of Cuba as well. Just like tourists, Cubans themselves enjoy safe streets and very low crime. This is not true anywhere else in Latin America or the USA.

Likewise, researching the workings of the current government (and local governance) of Cuba has opened my eyes. I didn't realize how much direct democracy Cuba had until I experienced it (and saw it) with my own blue nordic eyes. I also didn't realize how much R n D is done in Cuba in the fields of agriculture, health and education.

We can learn a lot from Cuba, if we stop listening to the ex-pat greedbags who had to leave to make democracy work there.

[XogGyux]

Being biased means that you're unable to give a well-rounded view of Cuba's operating system. Any useful info you might share is pre-marinated in self-interest and lost superiority.

Not really. Being biased just means that, biased. And let's not forget that I am biased precisely because I endured living there for 2 decades. The guy that got tortured is without a doubt biased against the guy that tortured him, that does not mean that we should ignore the testimony or evidence put forth by the guy being tortured.
And I fully disclosed my bias precisely so that people can put my testimony and evidence in context and draw their own conclusions.

As a tourist looking for a winter cycling destination, I did some research. I wanted the safest place in Latin America in which to bicycle, in the sense of low crime and as few cars as possible.

Everyone I know (tour guides, travellers, friends here in MTL from all over Latin America) recommended one place: Cuba.

Now, not worrying about being robbed or killed on the streets is important for tourists. But I believe that this is also important for the people of the nation of Cuba as well. Just like tourists, Cubans themselves enjoy safe streets and very low crime. This is not true anywhere else in Latin America or the USA.

Likewise, researching the workings of the current government (and local governance) of Cuba has opened my eyes. I didn't realize how much direct democracy Cuba had until I experienced it (and saw it) with my own blue nordic eyes.

How about you put your nordic brain to some fucking useful work. Your self-importance and self-indulgence are really shameful. Here, bragging about how you have the freedom to browse amongst multiple tourists destinations and whimsically choose to visit Cuba and bragging about their democracy when their very citizens that are catering to your whims in Cuba lack the freedom to do what you just did. Go and ask Cubans how many times they have indulged into a tourist journey to bicycle in any other country. You have not experienced Cuban democracy, Cubans have not experienced Cuban democracy.

We can learn a lot from Cuba

Yes. How not to ruin a country.

I also didn't realize how much R n D is done in Cuba in the fields of agriculture, health and education.

OK I'll bite. How much has Cuba done on those fields ?

Dude if you like Cuba so much, the answer is quite obvious, go live there, permanently, as a Cuban. Stop recruiting.

[QatzelOk]

Go and ask Cubans how many times they have indulged into a tourist journey to bicycle in any other country.

If these Cubans want to stay in the Americas, they can only really bicycle safely in their own country, and on the bike paths of Quebec during the warm months. That's it. No one in the Americas, other than Cubans, has the ability to safely get around everywhere by bicycle.

Go and ask Cubans how many times they have indulged into a tourist journey to bicycle in any other country. You have not experienced Cuban democracy, Cubans have not experienced Cuban democracy.

Biking in foreign countries isn't democracy. Democracy is things like participating in the consitution of your own country, which Cubans have strongly participated in.

Dude if you like Cuba so much, the answer is quite obvious, go live there, permanently, as a Cuban. Stop recruiting.

And if you hate Cuba so much, admit it, and stop pretending you have any answers on how to "improve" the quality of life of the people living there.

[XogGyux]

If these Cubans want to stay in the Americas, they can only really bicycle safely in their own country, and on the bike paths of Quebec during the warm months. That's it. No one in the Americas, other than Cubans, has the ability to safely get around everywhere by bicycle.

So much BS. First, this idea that the whole of the American continent is some sort of bandit flooded territory is insane. There are plenty of places here in the US were you can safely bike at night at any time. There are also some places where doing so would be poor judgment but that idea that you somehow have to go to Cuba to bike is stupid. Second, I wouldn't be so confident about biking at night in cuba either, while the "reported" crime in cuba might be low, the key word is reported. In the US and most other westerm countries it is routine for local news, and even sometimes national news to report various assaults, rape, murders, etc while in cuba. In cuba, when you find out about crimes and rape or suicides it is not thanks to the news, or tv or newspaper. You find out of rapes, suicides, murders, assaults, robbing by word of mouth and not by any of the means that we do here. A neighbor of my family in Fontanar, Cuba was murdered inside his house. The stories of dudes with machetes cutting attacking and even cutting people's hands for jewelry are plentiful and so are those of young ladies strangulated by assholes trying to steal the jewelry chains from their necks.

Also, carnavals in cuba are very dangerous. As a rule of thumb, everytime one of the happens, people fight drunk with broken bottles or machetes and it is not uncommon to kill each other during these events. Ofcourse non of this goes reported because it is supposed to be a paradise down there....


Second. I did not ask you "where else cubans can bike safely" I straight told you to ask them if they had the freedom and means to do so if they wanted. The answer is quite clearly no. The average cuban does not have the freedom that you have to travel anywhere else. It is pathetic that you are here crying and complaining about the freedoms and democracy that you have while at the same time praising that system that prevent those people from having the very freedoms that you enjoy. If I were to be posting of now amazing the North Korean regimen is because of how beautiful their country is, so organized, such respectful and humble people and how in-sync with nature they live I would be a delusional idiot. That is not to say that I equate Cuba with North Korea, I'll be the first to admit NK took this to the extreme and they are way worse. But this idea, that somehow cuba has a democracy is delusional at best.

Biking in foreign countries isn't democracy. Democracy is things like participating in the consitution of your own country, which Cubans have strongly participated in.

LOL yes, they strongly participated in a sham, an act of pretend. A single party, same dictators, but sure, cast your useless vote.
Biking is not the point. Having the freedom to do things is. Having the freedom to travel, to be a tourist like yourself, to visit and learn about other places, freedom of speech, of assembly, etc.

And if you hate Cuba so much, admit it, and stop pretending you have any answers on how to "improve" the quality of life of the people living there.

I'm not pretending. Never denied my feelings or thoughts about Cuba, you are being deliberately misleading. I don't have a problem admitting that I abhor the Cuban government. I have nothing against its people, they are a victim after all.

[XogGyux]

For those of you that are bored to death with this discussion. I have something to cheer you up.
Here is a clip of Fidel, then the president of cuba ("commander in chief") doing a "mesa redonda" circa 2004/2005 when "apagones" were really bad. (Apagones meaning that the goverment would cut off an area of the countries electricity for a few hours, during this time, fuel in cuba was scarce so they had scheduled apagones. For instance between 8pm and 10pm 4-5 blocks around your house would completely go dark, no lights at home, no lights in the street, no traffic lights, complete darkness).

If you want to see the president of the country start an artisanal fan with his finger, please go to minute 22. He might have found all of this shit funny, after all, he lived in luxury while the people in his country were making fans out of dryer's motors and Russian car's breaks.

[QatzelOk]

For those of you that are bored to death with this discussion. I have something to cheer you up.
Here is a clip of Fidel, then the president of cuba ("commander in chief") doing a "mesa redonda" circa 2004/2005 when "apagones" were really bad. (Apagones meaning that the goverment would cut off an area of the countries electricity for a few hours, during this time, fuel in cuba was scarce so they had scheduled apagones.

Yes, during that time, after the USSR collapsed, Cuba went through its Special Period, when the average Cuban lost about 10 kgs because their agriculture collapsed because it had been ruined by the use of chemical fertilizers. This lack of fuel continues to limit Cubans to sustainable practices to this day.

We still use chemical fertilizers in rich North America (and are addicted to fuel-guzzling vehicles), so our Special Period is still ahead of us.

It was because of this necessity that Cuba was forced to do research and development (and put it immediately into practice) into organic farming. It took five years before Cuba was food self-sufficient again. But the wealth of experience that was earned is useful to the rest of the world, in ways that your yearning for high-end products and the easy-life are not.

Thanks for reminding us of the hard work that Cubans have gone through in preparing the rest of the world for the end of oil-based lifestyles.

[XogGyux]

Yes, during that time, after the USSR collapsed, Cuba went through its Special Period, when the average Cuban lost about 10 kgs because their agriculture collapsed because it had been ruined by the use of chemical fertilizers. This lack of fuel continues to limit Cubans to sustainable practices to this day.

We still use chemical fertilizers in rich North America (and are addicted to fuel-guzzling vehicles), so our Special Period is still ahead of us.

It was because of this necessity that Cuba was forced to do research and development (and put it immediately into practice) into organic farming. It took five years before Cuba was food self-sufficient again. But the wealth of experience that was earned is useful to the rest of the world, in ways that your yearning for high-end products and the easy-life are not.

Thanks for reminding us of the hard work that Cubans have gone through in preparing the rest of the world for the end of oil-based lifestyles.

The USSR collapsed in the early 1990's. Not in 2005 when that video was made or 5 years earlier either. During the special period, some families were at the brink of starvation, zoo animals and domestic cats alike were eaten by people. This is not some kind of Utopia that you are trying to paint.
You talk about Cuba not using chemical fertilizers, this is not because Cuba is some sort of progressive forward-looking organic-friendly, hippie-friendly country. It is simply put because it had nothing better. They did not have access to any of the crap that we use in the US such as organophosphates and orther fertilizers, at least not in sufficient quantities anyway. In Cuba, fertilizer was... cow crap, manure. Which is not necesarily bad, but we are not talking about some kind of fertilizer revolution or something. This is old technology. When I was in boarding school at some point I had to shovel pounds and pounds of old, hot manure. Again, this is not some sort of cutting edge technology, known to farmers for centuries. Also, when managed in the way that we were doing it, a huge source of infectious diseases.
Cuban government is all about the short-sighted path of least resistance. They crossbreed 2 invasive species of fish into something called "claria" and eventually, this menace got released into the wild and it is now an ecological disaster as they eat rats, mice, frogs, lizards, birds, native fish, other clarias, small dogs and cats, chickens and virtually everything that moves. Nobody really likes to eat this BS animal, + because they grow everywhere they are usually growing in contaminated areas such as Almendares river. Very few people actually eat this shit, sometimes they get them to give to their dogs and farm animals but even that is risky, again because these animals grow in sewers and contaminated waters and there is a very high risk of poisoning, not to mention it taste awful.
https://www.14ymedio.com/blogs/origenes ... 02714.html

https://www.cubanet.org/destacados/el-r ... a-enfermo/
http://www.erroreshistoricos.com/errore ... -cuba.html

You want to talk about fuel guzzling vehicles? Do you realize that a lada, one of the most common cars in cuba (originally made by the USSR) when brand new had a fuel economy of ~25MPG which is in no fking way any much better than SUVs in the US. That is, when they were brand new, good carbulators, filters, oiled, etc. Today, you can bet is less than half. The old american cars that everyone loves? Probably a third of that. So really you have no freaking clue of what you are talking about.

Like I said. Rather than recruiting people, why don't you go to live like a cuban. Drink contaminated water from Rio Almendares, Eat stupid claria from rio almendares and drive a Lada 2105 that makes half the economy as any mothern car, which offcourse you could not even drive beacuse if you worked a cuban job, making cuban money you could not afford gas for your gas guzzler.

[QatzelOk]

Lada

Cubans used about 2% as much oil per capita as Americans living in Florida. And the way that Cuba got there is probably the only way - by losing the freedom to consume this environmental disaster.

2005

Once Cuba lost its cheap oil dealer, it was on a rollercoaster ride of fuel sourcing that lasts to the present.

This is, again, a useful lesson for our soon-to-be future. It's over for us real soon, so Cuba can provide valuable lessons in managing with what you have.

clarias

Environmental poisonning has nothing to do with communism or capitalism. It's due to modernization and industrialization. Since the Special Period, Cuba has seriously de-industrialized and de-modernized.

Once again, as a school for future survivors of ecological collapse, Cuba is an Ivy League university.