Evo Morales Gets Bounced; Seeks Asylum in Mexico - Page 14 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15161361
Heisenberg wrote:I can't believe MAS stopped this girlboss kween from achieving her dream of cleansing Bolivia of Satanic indigenous rites :*(


That city of Santa Cruz in Bolivia is really typical of the Latin American elite. They imitate the worst of the USA empty headed assholes with money and imitate a culture they don't even know well. They then deny their own Indian roots and live with the lie they are WHITE from Europe only. They then justify violence and exclusion and discrimination against Indian people in their nation because they think the Indians are the ones holding back their progress and holding them back from becoming like the USA lifestyles of the rich and famous.

They don't care about selling out their nation to foreign banks, foreign corporations and sinking their own nation into poverty and inequality because they are not living the poor and unequal existence and since they are not living it? Who cares if others are?

I find the Latin American racist elite DUMB too. They never study with any seriousness science, math and so on and find their intellectual refuge in stupid stuff like the Bible says the Indians are pagans and must be punished.

Completely and utterly repulsive in every way. But you got John Rawls and Rugoz and others defending these assholes. Because they are not the LEFT.

Whatever.





As a Latin woman I find women from Latin America who are not natural blonds? A bunch of wanna be Europeans and they got problems accepting their own Indian roots and African roots. The blond hair says it all about Janine. Her face is Super indian in the blood. High cheekbones and skin tone, and eyes and nose and everything else. But she talks about Indian people like they are pariahs. Notice he said that her administration had absolutely zero Indian people in appointments.

She accused Evo of being atheist and she lied about everything.

Evo pointed out that the ones with bullets and killing were the opposition. Not his government. It is true. If they really hated Anez types they would have killed that group.
#15161374
TRIGGER WARNINGS

Slapping reality across the face and staring madly into its eyes, Rugoz wrote:Morales ignored a binding referendum result that denied him more terms. Then there were serious and suspicious technical issues with the electronic voting system such that the OAS refused to verify the result. Anez fell upwards, if anything she was just a pawn. Elections were scheduled for May, but were delayed due to Covid.

I learned the expression "vieja seca" from a volleyball player last summer who is originally from Peru. This is the literal expression in French as well - vielle sèche. He was trying to capture the essence of Jeanine's rise to power, and of her particular social class in Latino societies.

And it's not an expression I would use a lot, but words like this are necessary because words like "asshole" and "jerk" are not usually applied to females even when a word like this is required.
#15161394
Heisenberg wrote:His party appealed it to the constitutional court and it was overturned. You know, like how the remainers tried to overturn the UK Brexit referendum. :excited:

Now, onto the stuff that actually matters (I'm sure you'll admit you don't care about the technicalities of the Bolivian constitution any more than I do, given you are making excuses for a military coup):


The "serious and suspicious technical issues" were a result of serious flaws in the OAS's own analysis, as even the New York Times admitted (as usual, long after the damage was already done and far too late to do any good).

It was something as basic as the OAS formatting the "time" column in a spreadsheet alphabetically, meaning that 10pm came immediately after 1pm when they sorted it - leading to their "suspicious spikes in votes for Morales".


For a "pawn" and a mere "interim" leader, her government was very keen to throw its weight around and try to cement its hold on power. Hence the whole "giving the police and military immunity for killing protesters" thing, pursuing MAS members for "corruption", muzzling journalists, detaining opponents, and so on.


The coup government delayed the elections on three separate occasions, leading to mass protests and general strikes throughout August and September.


It's abundantly clear that you either didn't follow any of the events in Bolivia between October 2019 and October 2020, or you are deliberately ignoring them. The coup government massacred people. It imprisoned Morales supporters and journalists, and tried to muzzle journalists. It only caved to a free election after months of mass protests. Your characterisation is utterly divorced from reality.


I have no problem with resource extraction and neither did the MAS government. The problem they had was with resource extraction for the benefit of foreign companies, which is why Morales terminated Bolivia's contract with ACI Systems following protests against it.


Nobody said that the right were saints. Also they did their own fair share of mistakes. But what they didn't do is imprison opposition leaders or try to destroy the opposition. This looks awfully like persecution of the opposition leaders since they dared to stop Morales from becoming a dictator.

If you want to get in to the nitty gritty of it Morales resigned himself and left the country. So technically it wasn't a coup from a legal-factual standpoint even if you don't want to admit that the situation was justified.
#15161401
JohnRawls wrote:Nobody said that the right were saints. Also they did their own fair share of mistakes. But what they didn't do is imprison opposition leaders or try to destroy the opposition. This looks awfully like persecution of the opposition leaders since they dared to stop Morales from becoming a dictator.

If you want to get in to the nitty gritty of it Morales resigned himself and left the country. So technically it wasn't a coup from a legal-factual standpoint even if you don't want to admit that the situation was justified.

How much are they paying you, man? I mean, I hope they're paying you, because this shit is just embarrassing. :eh:
#15161402
Potemkin wrote:How much are they paying you, man? I mean, I hope they're paying you, because this shit is just embarrassing. :eh:


From the leftist side of things sure, it might look that way. The problem of the left is that they consider their opinion final and the only one which is not the case.
#15161403
JohnRawls wrote:But what they didn't do is imprison opposition leaders or try to destroy the opposition.

Except for when, you know, they killed pro-Morales protesters, imprisoned MAS members and forced the elected president to flee to Mexico.

JohnRawls wrote:This looks awfully like persecution of the opposition leaders since they dared to stop Morales from becoming a dictator.

:lol:

JohnRawls wrote:If you want to get in to the nitty gritty of it Morales resigned himself and left the country. So technically it wasn't a coup from a legal-factual standpoint

You're right. The military just asked the elected president if he wouldn't mind resigning and going into exile, and he happily complied, because they asked so very nicely. :lol:
#15161404
JohnRawls wrote:Nobody said that the right were saints. Also they did their own fair share of mistakes. But what they didn't do is imprison opposition leaders or try to destroy the opposition. This looks awfully like persecution of the opposition leaders since they dared to stop Morales from becoming a dictator.

If you want to get in to the nitty gritty of it Morales resigned himself and left the country. So technically it wasn't a coup from a legal-factual standpoint even if you don't want to admit that the situation was justified.


Indeed, the right is not great and neither was MAS' trampling of the Constitution it created itself back in 2006 and widespread corruption.

But you see, Bolivia is a complicated case. MAS sucks but it has one major achievement: It at least achieved some stability at least until Morales was forced out after the military and the police refused to repress the protestors (which our resident leftists would have obviously supported, just as they do in Venezuela). Like it or not, it's probably the only realistic option Bolivia has to avoid Balkanization (or perhaps we should say "postpone", since is the most likely outcome in the long run).
#15161409
Heisenberg wrote:Except for when, you know, they killed pro-Morales protesters, imprisoned MAS members and forced the elected president to flee to Mexico.


:lol:


You're right. The military just asked the elected president if he wouldn't mind resigning and going into exile, and he happily complied, because they asked so very nicely. :lol:


Which leaders of MAS did the right wing imprison? Give me names and links for that information please.

Also, let me repeat. You view it as a coup and i view it more of a popular JUSTIFIED uprising.
#15161410
Heisenberg wrote:His party appealed it to the constitutional court and it was overturned. You know, like how the remainers tried to overturn the UK Brexit referendum. :excited:

Now, onto the stuff that actually matters (I'm sure you'll admit you don't care about the technicalities of the Bolivian constitution any more than I do, given you are making excuses for a military coup)


It absolutely matters when a court stacked with Morales-lackeys overturns a referendum because, I'm not making this up, the term limit violates the human rights of Morales according to the American Convention on Human Rights :lol:.

It shows how far Morales was willing to go, namely down the same path as right-wing leaders such as Hernández in Hondarus.

Heisenberg wrote:The "serious and suspicious technical issues" were a result of serious flaws in the OAS's own analysis, as even the New York Times admitted (as usual, long after the damage was already done and far too late to do any good).

It was something as basic as the OAS formatting the "time" column in a spreadsheet alphabetically, meaning that 10pm came immediately after 1pm when they sorted it - leading to their "suspicious spikes in votes for Morales".


Not that shit again. The statistical analysis is merely one circumstancial evidence in the OAS report. Even if it is faulty, it does in no way invalidate the core of the report.

Here it is:
http://www.oas.org/fpdb/press/Audit-Rep ... vFINAL.pdf

The statistical analysis is the second point under "CLUES". All the points under the preceding "GRAVE IRREGULARITIES" and "ERRORS" still hold.

Heisenberg wrote:The coup government delayed the elections on three separate occasions


The last delay to October by the TSE was on 23 July 2020, when Covid cases were still growing exponentionally.
#15161412
wat0n wrote:Indeed, the right is not great and neither was MAS' trampling of the Constitution it created itself back in 2006 and widespread corruption.

But you see, Bolivia is a complicated case. MAS sucks but it has one major achievement: It at least achieved some stability at least until Morales was forced out after the military and the police refused to repress the protestors (which our resident leftists would have obviously supported, just as they do in Venezuela). Like it or not, it's probably the only realistic option Bolivia has to avoid Balkanization (or perhaps we should say "postpone", since is the most likely outcome in the long run).


I do not deny that this is a complicated matter. It still doesn't justify violence and suppression. Even worse that you yourself are saying that it will probably not work. As somebody who lived through the dissolution of the Soviet Union, I can tell you that is not a good situation to be in.

Interesting read about political prosecutions by Morales/MAS and after the uprising: https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/09/11/j ... on-bolivia
#15161413
JohnRawls wrote:Which leaders of MAS did the right wing imprison? Give me names and links for that information please.

WaPo good enough for you?
Since being sworn in, the fiercely anti-socialist Áñez has presided over the detention of hundreds of opponents, the muzzling of journalists and a “national pacification” campaign that has left at least 31 people dead, according to the national ombudsman and human rights groups.


How about a Human Rights Watch report, which found that "[Anez's] government has publicly pressured prosecutors and judges to act to further its interests, leading to criminal investigations of more than 100 people linked to the Morales government and Morales supporters for sedition and/or terrorism."

While Human Rights Watch did not examine all investigations against former members of the Morales administration and supporters, in the 18 cases we did analyze, including some against high-profile individuals, we found instances of baseless charges, due process violations, infringement on freedom of expression, and excessive and arbitrary use of pretrial detention.

Prosecutors charged Patricia Hermosa, Morales’ attorney and former chief of staff, with terrorism, financing of terrorism, and sedition based on the mere fact that she had telephone contact with Morales after he resigned. Prosecutors say that the phone calls, for which there are no recordings or transcripts, make her a collaborator in the crimes attributed to Morales. Despite the lack of evidence that she committed any crime, Hermosa was arrested on January 31, 2020, and held in pretrial detention while pregnant, a violation of Bolivian law. She received no medical care and had a miscarriage in March. She was transferred from jail to house arrest on August 5.

Prosecutors charged Mauricio Jara with sedition, instigation to commit a crime, and crimes against public health. At a press conference on April 22, 2020, police cited as evidence of his criminal activity that Jara had admitted he was a supporter of Morales; had used WhatsApp groups to “misinform”; had called the government “a tyrant” and “dictatorial”; and had urged people to protest. Police also cited as evidence that Jara had called the killing of at least 10 protestors in Senkata in November 2019 a “massacre,” a term also used by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights to describe the case. He remains in pretrial detention.

Edith Chávez Arauco worked as a maid and babysitter for the family of Morales’ former minister of the presidency, Juan Ramón Quintana. On January 10, police raided Chávez’s home, on the basis of her connection to Quintana, and said they found a handgun. Prosecutors charged her with aiding and abetting, without stating what crime she had allegedly aided and abetted, and with unlawfully carrying a firearm, though the charging document itself says police found the gun inside a cabinet—that is, she was not carrying it. Had Chávez been charged exclusively with unlawful possession of a firearm, a crime punishable with up to two years in prison, pretrial detention would have been unlawful, as Bolivian law prohibits pretrial detention for people charged with a crime for which the maximum sentence is under four years in prison. In contrast, unlawfully carrying a firearm is punished with up to five years in prison. Chávez was held in pretrial detention. On May 22, 2020, judge Hugo Huacani granted her house arrest. Hours later, two government lawyers reported the judge to police, stating he had shown a possible “lack of independence” in his ruling. Police detained the judge and held him in custody until the next day, when another judge ruled his arrest had been illegal. The Interior Ministry filed a criminal complaint against judge Huacani for dereliction of duty and for issuing decisions that violate the law. Chávez was released to house arrest pursuant to Judge Huacani’s order, but another judge revoked the order on June 10 and she returned to pretrial detention, where she remains.


One day, John, you'll learn that being entirely ignorant of events doesn't actually mean they didn't happen. Lol.

JohnRawls wrote:Also, let me repeat. You view it as a coup and i view it more of a popular JUSTIFIED uprising.

Just a couple of weeks ago you were calling Anez the "crazy coup lady". :lol:
#15161416
Heisenberg wrote:WaPo good enough for you?


How about a Human Rights Watch report, which found that "[Anez's] government has publicly pressured prosecutors and judges to act to further its interests, leading to criminal investigations of more than 100 people linked to the Morales government and Morales supporters for sedition and/or terrorism."



One day, John, you'll learn that being entirely ignorant of events doesn't actually mean they didn't happen. Lol.


Just a couple of weeks ago you were calling Anez the "crazy coup lady". :lol:


I call them anything I want. My idea has been consistent that the coup or uprising is justified because Morales wanted to be a dictator but ultimately failed.

It is nice that you link the human rights watch report which shows that it was Morales who weakened the judicial system and started the prosecutions. It also states that most of the people arrested by the coup were more or less released by April-May and the rest were under house arrest. (2 or 3 people)

So I will repeat again, which MAS leaders did the right wing coup put in jail for 30 years? And by leaders, i mean main leaders.
#15161420
JohnRawls wrote:I do not deny that this is a complicated matter. It still doesn't justify violence and suppression. Even worse that you yourself are saying that it will probably not work. As somebody who lived through the dissolution of the Soviet Union, I can tell you that is not a good situation to be in.

Interesting read about political prosecutions by Morales/MAS and after the uprising: https://www.hrw.org/report/2020/09/11/j ... on-bolivia


Right, it's not a good situation to live in. But the Balkanization of Bolivia would not look like what happened in the former USSR, it would probably look more like what happened in the Balkans. I don't find it all that odd that some people don't want to see something like that happening.
#15161421
wat0n wrote:Right, it's not a good situation to live in. But the Balkanization of Bolivia would not look like what happened in the former USSR, it would probably look more like what happened in the Balkans. I don't find it all that odd that some people don't want to see something like that happening.


The Balkans and the USSR are the same actually. The difference was that the USSR leaders had the wisdom to voluntarily dissolve the system. Former Yugoslavia being in the almost exactly same situation decided to try to keep the failing system together through prosecution and suppression of different nationalities which the USSR could have also tried to do. And some people actually tried to do it with the putsch but failed.
#15161424
JohnRawls wrote:The Balkans and the USSR are the same actually. The difference was that the USSR leaders had the wisdom to voluntarily dissolve the system. Former Yugoslavia being in the almost exactly same situation decided to try to keep the failing system together through prosecution and suppression of different nationalities which the USSR could have also tried to do. And some people actually tried to do it with the putsch but failed.


I know, and the Bolivians will try to do the same if the situation arises. One of MAS' achievements was to allow for some stability.

But, they did indeed squander it by trying to stay in power no matter what and engaging in widespread corruption (particularly that involving Chinese interests with Bolivia's gas). Evo Morales himself has been accused of fucking some underage girls while President too.
#15161428
JohnRawls wrote:It also states that most of the people arrested by the coup were more or less released by April-May and the rest were under house arrest. (2 or 3 people)

Lol, this is just a flat out lie. It says nothing of the kind.

Of the three high profile examples it gives: one had a miscarriage while illegally held in pretrial detention, before being transferred to house arrest. One who remains in pretrial detention. And another one who was back in pretrial detention after being bounced back and forth between jail and house arrest.

JohnRawls wrote:So I will repeat again, which MAS leaders did the right wing coup put in jail for 30 years? And by leaders, i mean main leaders.

Image

They charged Morales with "terrorism" and would have imprisoned him if he ever returned to Bolivia. But he escaped before they could do that. So there's that.

Also, Anez hasn't been "put in jail for 30 years", because she hasn't been convicted yet. She's in pretrial detention, which if your last post is anything to go by, is absolutely no big deal at all. ;)

Honest to god, there's nothing more pathetic than cheering on a military coup, massacres, arbitrary detentions and all, and then whining about how unfair it is when the architects finally face some consequences. :roll:
#15161439
Heisenberg wrote:Lol, this is just a flat out lie. It says nothing of the kind.

Of the three high profile examples it gives: one had a miscarriage while illegally held in pretrial detention, before being transferred to house arrest. One who remains in pretrial detention. And another one who was back in pretrial detention after being bounced back and forth between jail and house arrest.


Image

They charged Morales with "terrorism" and would have imprisoned him if he ever returned to Bolivia. But he escaped before they could do that. So there's that.

Also, Anez hasn't been "put in jail for 30 years", because she hasn't been convicted yet. She's in pretrial detention, which if your last post is anything to go by, is absolutely no big deal at all. ;)

Honest to god, there's nothing more pathetic than cheering on a military coup, massacres, arbitrary detentions and all, and then whining about how unfair it is when the architects finally face some consequences. :roll:


The 3 big ones:

Luis Hernán Soliz Morales and Fernando Morales Virreyra. Morales Virreyra was granted house arrest, while Soliz Morales was initially held in pretrial detention and later transferred to house arrest.


Patricia Hermosa. Despite the lack of evidence that Hermosa committed any crime, she was held in pretrial detention from January 31 to August 5, 2020, when she was transferred to house arrest.


Gustavo Torrico. orrico was initially kept in pretrial detention and is now under house arrest.


It is also funny that you literally ignored:

IV. Weak Judicial Institutions Enabling Abuse
Evo Morales’ Reforms Undermined Judicial Independence


Considering it is a whole chapter explaining the situation, in huge letters, you either didn't scroll down to it or tried not to mention it. Basically it describes that this whole situation is relatively the same considering what Morales was doing for 11 years to his opponents.

As for Anez or the crazy coup lady, considering the behaviour of similar regimes in the SA, she will be put in jail for 30 years so that MAS and Morales can remain in power. The cherry on top could be return of Morales to power but hopefully at least that won't happen.
#15161440
JohnRawls wrote:The 3 big ones:

No comment at all on Mauricio Jara or Edith Chávez Arauco, then?

Also lol at the idea that putting your political opponents under house arrest is just completely fine. :lol:

JohnRawls wrote:Considering it is a whole chapter explaining the situation, in huge letters, you either didn't scroll down to it or tried not to mention it. Basically it describes that this whole situation is relatively the same considering what Morales was doing for 11 years to his opponents.

No, I didn't mention it because the topic under discussion is you denial that the coup government did any of these things.

As I've said in other threads, I can deal with right wingers with the courage of their convictions. I am implacably opposed to blackjack21, for example, but he made no bones about his support for the coup, and called it what it was. What I really can't stand is cowardly liberal doublespeak whereby a military coup is "restoring democracy" and arbitrarily detaining left wing leaders is a hallmark of benevolent leadership.
#15161442
Heisenberg wrote:No comment at all on Mauricio Jara or Edith Chávez Arauco, then?

Also lol at the idea that putting your political opponents under house arrest is just completely fine. :lol:


No, I didn't mention it because the topic under discussion is you denial that the coup government did any of these things.

As I've said in other threads, I can deal with right wingers with the courage of their convictions. I am implacably opposed to blackjack21, for example, but he made no bones about his support for the coup, and called it what it was. What I really can't stand is cowardly liberal doublespeak whereby a military coup is "restoring democracy" and arbitrarily detaining left wing leaders is a hallmark of benevolent leadership.


When did I say that the ring wing forces did nothing wrong. I did say that they did wrong things but in the end they did the right thing and conducted a free election which restored the situation to more or less what should have happened if Morales didn't try to become a dictator. Now it seems though it is not enough for either Morales or MAS who are prosecuting the opposition for doing that.
#15161615
Since I'm allowed to post just one tweet, here it is because how lovely does this look? :excited:



She and her fellow coup-plotters are responsible for massacres in Senkata, Huayllani and Pedegral, which killed 38 people, left 800+ wounded and arbitrary detained over 1500 people.

Potemkin wrote:How much are they paying you, man? I mean, I hope they're paying you, because this shit is just embarrassing. :eh:


If only :lol:

I see the gusanos on social media, at least they try to be convincing. JR gives a feel of 'barely-can-be-bothered' but will persevere in an attempt to save a face that is not even worth saving since he's entirely wrong here.
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