The War on Cuba Part I and II - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15167367
Tainari88 wrote:No, XogGyux I am saying that if you think poverty=inferiority? Is that accurate or not?

Depends on the context. Is a poor person inferior to a rich one solely on the account of their net worth? Absolutely not.
Is a government/economic system inferior to another because the people living under such a system tend to live in poverty? Yes.
No, XogGyux, what I am saying is that Puerto Rico followed a path Cuba did not. The path it followed was being a complete client government and unincorporated territory of the USA. The USA constitution doesn't apply to us here. You don't know much about the independence movement in Puerto Rico. All nations want freedom especially if they have suffered under colonial rule like under Spain and then the USA promised us autonomy. It never happened? Do you ask yourself why?

I am not going to engage in a puerto rico this, puerto rico that. Im comfortable doing general comparisons but I am not going to go into details of history/politics/economic that I am not familiar with. I can tell you what Cuba is and what it is not because I lived there for 2 decades, I was born there, I know its people, etc. Some, that have not even set foot there, or perhaps only visited for a couple days as a TOURIST (which is a far different experience... you know, dollars and all) all of the sudden are experts on cuban economics and politics...
#15167370
XogGyux wrote:Depends on the context. Is a poor person inferior to a rich one solely on the account of their net worth? Absolutely not.
Is a government/economic system inferior to another because the people living under such a system tend to live in poverty? Yes.

I am not going to engage in a puerto rico this, puerto rico that. Im comfortable doing general comparisons but I am not going to go into details of history/politics/economic that I am not familiar with. I can tell you what Cuba is and what it is not because I lived there for 2 decades, I was born there, I know its people, etc. Some, that have not even set foot there, or perhaps only visited for a couple days as a TOURIST (which is a far different experience... you know, dollars and all) all of the sudden are experts on cuban economics and politics...


Why do you think Cuba is always held as paradise by the left in Western nations? I a way I get it Fidel was an extremely charismatic leader.
#15167376
wat0n wrote:
Wasn't needed? How can you know that, when Cuba has a large security apparatus precisely to deal with dissent?



Ignoring reality doesn't make it go away.
#15167378
Julian658 wrote:Why do you think Cuba is always held as paradise by the left in Western nations? I a way I get it Fidel was an extremely charismatic leader.

My impression? Ignorance.
I don't think most of them have a good grasp of what is going on in the country. And, there is this expectation that "well, cuba is a left country, I am a lefty so I must support that" kind of actitude, or at least this is the vibe I am getting.
#15167381
XogGyux wrote:My impression? Ignorance.
I don't think most of them have a good grasp of what is going on in the country. And, there is this expectation that "well, cuba is a left country, I am a lefty so I must support that" kind of actitude, or at least this is the vibe I am getting.


The American left likes to romanticize Cuba. This fits with what they want to believe that absolutely everything that is wrong and evil in the world is due to the US/west.
#15167382
XogGyux wrote:Depends on the context. Is a poor person inferior to a rich one solely on the account of their net worth? Absolutely not.
Is a government/economic system inferior to another because the people living under such a system tend to live in poverty? Yes.

I am not going to engage in a puerto rico this, puerto rico that. Im comfortable doing general comparisons but I am not going to go into details of history/politics/economic that I am not familiar with. I can tell you what Cuba is and what it is not because I lived there for 2 decades, I was born there, I know its people, etc. Some, that have not even set foot there, or perhaps only visited for a couple days as a TOURIST (which is a far different experience... you know, dollars and all) all of the sudden are experts on cuban economics and politics...


XogGyux I am simply saying to go deeper into why there is poverty in our nations? Is it genes? No. Is it lack of ability to make money? No. Is it corruption, waste and pressure from wealthier nations that are manipulating things through international banking, using crony politics locally and so on to get things to work in their favor? Yes. Lack of ethics? Yes.

Of course as a tourist it is different. That is not my point in this thread. The Castro regime is basically over. What is the New Cuba going to be doing in the next 40 years? Without a blockade it can do a lot especially trading with other islands like Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, Curacao and establishing better diplomatic ties with everyone in Europe in Asia,etc.

That is my point. How to make that happen?

Donald Trump is gone and Obama was willing to establish diplomatic ties with Cuba. He had the same intelligence briefings as Bush and Trump did. The difference is that Obama did not depend on red states and their Republican majorities to win re-election. The Cuban hardliners in Florida have to admit that the blockade hasn't made Cuba more open and friendly to capitalist enterprises from the states. It has made it easier for Spaniards, Italians, Canadians to trade but up to a point.

So? What is the way forward for BOTH island nations? Cuba and Puerto Rico both in the Caribbean with a similar relationship to Spain and the American early half of the 20th century.

What is next for them to stop suffering economic problems that are so bad they got to pack their bags and move to Florida, New York, Connecticut and so on?

Where is the future @XogGyux ?

Forget about you thinking I think you are a vulture. No. My point was nations who are more powerful and impose bad conditions on poorer ones and want us to not have independence so they can sell more expensive consumer products to us and have a captive market. That is awful. So is using the excuse of paranoid invasions from the USA mainland to spy on ordinary people who want to watch European or American TV or stream content from the internet. It is not working. How to change it?

@XogGyux I already told you how I feel about you? I think you made the right decision. It is not fair that talented doctors, nurses and health care people have to leave Cuba to get a decent life in somewhere else. I meet them here in Mexico too. They love Cuba but needed to make money. Mexico is very hard to make a lot of money. They are in a tough spot economically but they struggle mightily to make it work.

I think it is important to look for solutions. Having the USA punish Puerto Ricans and Cubans for not wanting to give up the land to them for their exclusive attentions is wrong and bad world politics in general.

I have never been an authoritarian @XogGyux . I never liked it. So I would be against using violence and force to make people do what they are told through their government. I think the best thing is cooperation and at the same time being moral and economic leaders. And respectful and believers in equality in human relationships. It brings peace as a by product. A great thing.
#15167384
Julian658 wrote:
Why do you think Cuba is always held as paradise by the left in Western nations? I a way I get it Fidel was an extremely charismatic leader.



What would a day be without some lies from you?

The UN uses infant mortality as a quick n dirty way to measure the quality of a health care system. There was one year, in the 1980s (which figures) when Cuba did better than the USA at infant mortality.

Fidel prob did that on purpose. But it does tell a tale...

But if you look at the 1960s, when the situation in Cuba was still a bit volatile, all Fidel had to do was point at Guatamala.

I have some homework for you clowns that have delusions of competence. Compare and contrast Cuba and Guatamala in any year in the 1960s.
#15167387
XogGyux wrote:My impression? Ignorance.
I don't think most of them have a good grasp of what is going on in the country. And, there is this expectation that "well, cuba is a left country, I am a lefty so I must support that" kind of actitude, or at least this is the vibe I am getting.


I am old and as a kid I remember the Cuban expats of the 1960s. They had a lot of horror stories to tell. Granted they were from the upper Cuban crust, so perhaps they were biased. Their kids were my classmates and neighbors.

Later I discover other waves of Cuban immigrants that were not from the upper socio economic class that told the same stories.

Lastly, last year (just before Covid) I met a Cuban Uber driver that had left the island in 2012. He told me that owning two cars and to work part time as a Uber driver was a dream come true. He had no chance of owning a car in Cuba. He told me the same stories I heard as a youngster from my Cuban friends.

I know this is anecdotal, but is is quite hard to discard.
Last edited by Julian658 on 17 Apr 2021 18:31, edited 1 time in total.
#15167388
late wrote:What would a day be without some lies from you?

The UN uses infant mortality as a quick n dirty way to measure the quality of a health care system. There was one year, in the 1980s (which figures) when Cuba did better than the USA at infant mortality.

Fidel prob did that on purpose. But it does tell a tale...

But if you look at the 1960s, when the situation in Cuba was still a bit volatile, all Fidel had to do was point at Guatamala.

I have some homework for you clowns that have delusions of competence. Compare and contrast Cuba and Guatamala in any year in the 1960s.


I would be careful when talking about infant mortality statistics in Cuba. It seems that doctors there have a greater tendency to just terminate the pregnancy of a fetus that is likely to die at birth than other countries as a way to keep a low level of infant mortality. This is based on the fact that Cuba has a high level of fetal mortality given its infant mortality and that they have a high rate of abortion in general:

https://academic.oup.com/heapol/article ... 55/5035051
#15167389
jimjam wrote:


Image
Pitching napkins is not racism. It is just silly stupid behavior by Trump.
#15167390
Julian658 wrote:I know this is anecdotal, but is is quite hard to discard.


I agree. I have a lot of anecdotal experiences growing up in Miami. I grew up around Cubans of lower socioeconomic classes. I've heard all sorts of horror stories from their parents and grand parents. As well as their cousins, brothers, etc which were recent arivals. It's hard to believe that all of this is US/western propaganda. It's almost like the flat earth conspiracy, where these people believe that every single space agency and every single scientist in the world is in on this grand conspiracy. A conspiracy of that magnitude is just simply impractically possible.
#15167391
wat0n wrote:
I would be careful when talking about infant mortality statistics in Cuba. It seems that doctors there have a greater tendency to just terminate the pregnancy of a fetus that is likely to die at birth than other countries as a way to keep a low level of infant mortality. This is based on the fact that Cuba has a high level of fetal mortality given its infant mortality and that they have a high rate of abortion in general:

https://academic.oup.com/heapol/article ... 55/5035051



That's looks to be a good point.

But once again you have dodged the obvious.

The people in Cuba were finally getting health care, and the government was helping with food.

Was it great? Not at all, but if you look at Latin America back then, most of the countries under our thumb (or boot, of you prefer) were a lot worse for regular people.

Like Shrek said, this is an onion, there are layers. We could have accomplished a lot more in Cuba with honey than we ever did with vinegar.

The very corrupt rich Cuban expats in (mostly) Florida were able to buy the foreign policy they wanted. Despite the fact that it was complete idiocy.
#15167395
late wrote:That's looks to be a good point.

But once again you have dodged the obvious.

The people in Cuba were finally getting health care, and the government was helping with food.

Was it great? Not at all, but if you look at Latin America back then, most of the countries under our thumb (or boot, of you prefer) were a lot worse for regular people.

Like Shrek said, this is an onion, there are layers. We could have accomplished a lot more in Cuba with honey than we ever did with vinegar.

The very corrupt rich Cuban expats in (mostly) Florida were able to buy the foreign policy they wanted. Despite the fact that it was complete idiocy.


Cuba used to be compared to the less poor countries like Argentina before the revolution, now it gets compared to the poorest ones in Central America. What exactly are you talking about here?
#15167397
wat0n wrote:
Cuba used to be compared to the less poor countries like Argentina before the revolution, now it gets compared to the poorest ones in Central America. What exactly are you talking about here?



"But there are also some much more positive sides to the Cuban experience. One of these—its health care system—was on display when I visited the country in mid-November with a delegation of American health care experts led by Michael Leavitt, the former Republican governor of Utah and secretary of health and human services under President George W. Bush. When it comes to health care, Cuba is a success story with few parallels.

Since its 1959 revolution, Cuba’s infant mortality rate has fallen from 37.3 to 4.3 per 1000 live births—a rate equivalent to Australia’s and lower than the United States’ (5.8). From 1970 to 2016 life expectancy increased from 70.04 to 78.7 years"
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2016/fidel-castros-health-care-legacy

"Prior to the revolution, the majority of the Cuban population was under the oppression of the Batista military dictatorship. There was no free government-funded health program, and the health services were essentially conformed according to social class. The population of Cuba consisted of a proportionately small wealthy class who owned and controlled the bulk of Cuban wealth"
https://www.radford.edu/~junnever/law/cuba.htm


Things got better for the vast majority under Castro. You obviously didn't look at Guatamala, which was your basic hell hole (and it got that way thanks to a CIA coup).

You also didn't acknowledge my point that we would have had a lot more influence if we hadn't let the corrupt Cubans in Miami buy our foreign policy.

This is ancient history, but I remember how the people of Cuba were supposed to rise up when we invaded at the Bay of Pigs. They didn't.

But all that stuff happened in the real world.
Last edited by late on 17 Apr 2021 18:57, edited 1 time in total.
#15167399
Rancid wrote:This is a very interesting point about Las Vegas. No one really busted up or dismantled the Mafias grip on vegas, it just sort of naturally happened as more and more private entities started to move in. As you said, the economy grew to large to manage. Not like they could go around wacking every corporate CEO moving into Las Vegas.


I don't know whacking a lot of CEOs polluting the Earth and killing off sea life like in that movie Seaspiracy might be a good thing.

Naturally? More like some greedy corporate folk said--why should the Mafia have all the fun with the money from the one armed bandits and the showgirls and cocktails and drug stores selling condoms 24 hours a day?

We are clean capitalists and where the Mafiosos got to dodge the feds we get to pay off the politicians to make us the kings scott free. They are outlaws and we are greedy law makers with deep pockets. Naturally.

Te gusto Rancito eh?

You know you love me....a Vegas song for you....

#15167403
Tainari88 wrote:Naturally? More like some greedy corporate folk said--why should the Mafia have all the fun with the money from the one armed bandits and the showgirls and cocktails and drug stores selling condoms 24 hours a day?


What you described is exactly natural....organic human behavior.
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