[wat0n]

Are you against private property?

No. And I realize governments, at least good ones, recognize and defend it.

What happens when the commune runs out of funds is that it becomes a private cooperative and operates like a business. Also many members just leave.

[Julian658]

You aren't actually talking about anything.

This coming from a poster that did not know Denmark was a capitalist nation. Ignorance is bliss!

[Tainari88]

No. And I realize governments, at least good ones, recognize and defend it.

What happens when the commune runs out of funds is that it becomes a private cooperative and operates like a business. Also many members just leave.

Well what happens when the shareholders want to close it all down because reopening in the PRC or in Indonesia or in the Phillipines is more profitable? Ignoring that the workers want to happen? You know the people that made you rich over time? Just ignore them?

The argument about Mondragon.

Deal with what they say in the video Wat0n. It works. In fact, 100,000 plus workers and a lot of businesses. Spain had a recession. Many people lost their jobs in Spain when they were not working in cooperatives. Listen to what they are saying? Got to have a vote, a voice and the ones who are integrated they can be in control.

Hear that word @wat0n --control. They control it. The workers. They vote. Even @blackjack21 loves buying shares in his own field employer. He has skin in the job. LOL. But he doesn't want that for other workers in other businesses? Why not? Socialism sucks? Go talk to the ones who lost their GM jobs to China and say that capitalism and the neoliberal economics that are anti nationalistic is the scene.

Argue against that and say that getting your ass fired for cheap labor in Mexico or PRC is the answer? No.

[wat0n]

Well what happens when the shareholders want to close it all down because reopening in the PRC or in Indonesia or in the Phillipines is more profitable? Ignoring that the workers want to happen? You know the people that made you rich over time? Just ignore them?

Yes, actually, it's exactly the same as a commune closing because it's more profitable for its own members to work for private businesses.

Not that you are proposing any alternatives to dealing with the issue of dealing with terminally inefficient businesses in the rest of your post. Mondragon is a success story, which doesn't really deal with all the failures - and it in any event enjoys some tax advantages that the Basque Country enjoys in Spain.

[Julian658]

Yes, actually, it's exactly the same as a commune closing because it's more profitable for its own members to work for private businesses.

Not that you are proposing any alternatives to dealing with the issue of dealing with terminally inefficient businesses in the rest of your post. Mondragon is a success story, which doesn't really deal with all the failures - and it in any event enjoys some tax advantages that the Basque Country enjoys in Spain.

In a capitalist nation no one is stopping the socialists to open workers owned businesses. It is perfectly legit and accepted.

1 Publix Super Markets Lakeland FL ESOP & Stock Purchase 1974 Supermarkets 202000
2 Penmac* Springfield MO ESOP 2010 Staffing 28000
3 WinCo Foods Boise ID ESOP 1985 Supermarkets 19000
4 Amsted Industries* Chicago IL ESOP 1986 Industrial components 18000
4 Houchens Industries* Bowling Green KY ESOP 1961 Supermarkets & other services 18000
6 Parsons* Pasadena CA ESOP 1974 Engineering & construction 16000
7 Black & Veatch Overland Park KS KSOP 1998 Engineering & construction 11000
8 W.L. Gore & Associates Newark DE ESOP 1974 Manufacturing 10800
9 Davey Tree Expert* Kent OH 401KSOP & ESOP 1979 Tree & environmental services 10500
10 HDR, Inc.* Omaha NE ESOP 1996 Architecture & engineering 10000
11 Graybar Electric St. Louis MO Stock purchase 1929 Electrical equipment wholesale 8700
12 Schreiber Foods Green Bay WI ESOP 1998 Dairy company 8000
13 Brookshire Brothers* Lufkin TX ESOP 2001 Supermarkets 7200
14 Rosendin Electric* San Jose CA ESOP 1992 Electrical Contracting 7000
14 Travel and Transport, Inc. Omaha NE ESOP 1991 Travel management 7000
16 Burns & McDonnell Engineering* Kansas City MO ESOP 1985 Architecture & engineering 6650
17 Performance Contracting, Inc. Lenexa KS ESOP 1986 Construction 6300
18 EmpRes Healthcare Management* Vancouver WA ESOP 2009 Post-acute long term care 6200
18 Scheels All Sports Fargo ND ESOP 1982 Retail sporting goods 6200
20 Harp's Food Stores* Springdale AR ESOP 1988 Supermarkets 6010

There are many more----------- right here in America.
https://www.nceo.org/articles/employee-ownership-100

[late]

This coming from a poster that did not know Denmark was a capitalist nation.

I was pointing out your hypocritical use of socialism for about the 10th time.

The modern meaning is a country with strong social programs, the old meaning is a country where the government owns the means of production. Since no developed country owns the means of production, there is no socialism.

And when people talk about it, the last thing on their minds is something like the Soviet system.

It's a very old scam, I can remember morons doing it a half century ago...

You're a propagandist, you keep repeating lies hoping someone is dumb enough to actually believe you.

[noemon]

I was pointing out your hypocritical use of socialism for about the 10th time.

The modern meaning is a country with strong social programs, the old meaning is a country where the government owns the means of production. Since no developed country owns the means of production, there is no socialism.

And when people talk about it, the last thing on their minds is something like the Soviet system.

It's a very old scam, I can remember morons doing it a half century ago...

You're a propagandist, you keep repeating lies hoping someone is dumb enough to actually believe you.

This is nonsense. He is right and you are wrong. Denmark is not a socialist country under any modern meaning.

[Julian658]

I was pointing out your hypocritical use of socialism for about the 10th time.

The modern meaning is a country with strong social programs, the old meaning is a country where the government owns the means of production. Since no developed country owns the means of production, there is no socialism.

And when people talk about it, the last thing on their minds is something like the Soviet system.

It's a very old scam, I can remember morons doing it a half century ago...

You're a propagandist, you keep repeating lies hoping someone is dumb enough to actually believe you.

POD and Tainari are old fashion socialists. Cuba is a socialist nation. They have allowed private property since 2019, so they have accepted the system does not work.
You posts tend to express a significant number of inaccuracies that suggests they are written by a very young child.

[Tainari88]

Yes, actually, it's exactly the same as a commune closing because it's more profitable for its own members to work for private businesses.

Not that you are proposing any alternatives to dealing with the issue of dealing with terminally inefficient businesses in the rest of your post. Mondragon is a success story, which doesn't really deal with all the failures - and it in any event enjoys some tax advantages that the Basque Country enjoys in Spain.

Why are businesses inefficient? IN capitalism Wat0n you got workers who are working well and being paid a good competitive wage. They see the spreadsheets and it is up in quarterly profits but? Procter and Gamble can make more money closing down the factor and relocating it so they can cut labor costs by a lot. So? Who loses? The workers lose the job and the economy tanks in their town, they lose their home equity and values drop on the workers formerly worth more homes, the executives get a golden parachute of millions of dollars for destroying the jobs and worker benefits and the company moves to another nation, slashes taxes to be paid to the USA and the new nation of relocation. The only ones winning in that scenario are shareholders who are looking for fast and quick dividends. Most citizens in the USA don't own stocks at all or shares of random companies and even those get ripped off according to the ones designing the algorithms Wat0n on Wall Street.

Aren't you interested in decent economics? Or is the destruction of societies and poverty and hopelessness the way you cope Wat0n. Why defend such a lack of intelligence and ethics?

This way no need to downsize. Keep jobs relevant. Stable. If it is a new technology that boosts efficiency then pass that advantage on equitably to all workers in the entire country. Don't wreck the productive value by a race to the bottom of the barrel of paying people totally abysmal salaries. It is damaging.

[late]

Cuba is a socialist nation. They have allowed private property since 2019...

They aren't socialist for 2 reasons. For one, they don't own all property or means of production.

The second reason is that socialism is defined as an intermediate stage of capitalism. Cuba isn't capitalist, it isn't even developed (and that's what Marx was talking about).

As always, out of your depth, kiddo.

[wat0n]

Why are businesses inefficient? IN capitalism Wat0n you got workers who are working well and being paid a good competitive wage. They see the spreadsheets and it is up in quarterly profits but? Procter and Gamble can make more money closing down the factor and relocating it so they can cut labor costs by a lot. So? Who loses? The workers lose the job and the economy tanks in their town, they lose their home equity and values drop on the workers formerly worth more homes, the executives get a golden parachute of millions of dollars for destroying the jobs and worker benefits and the company moves to another nation, slashes taxes to be paid to the USA and the new nation of relocation. The only ones winning in that scenario are shareholders who are looking for fast and quick dividends. Most citizens in the USA don't own stocks at all or shares of random companies and even those get ripped off according to the ones designing the algorithms Wat0n on Wall Street.

Aren't you interested in decent economics? Or is the destruction of societies and poverty and hopelessness the way you cope Wat0n. Why defend such a lack of intelligence and ethics?

This way no need to downsize. Keep jobs relevant. Stable. If it is a new technology that boosts efficiency then pass that advantage on equitably to all workers in the entire country. Don't wreck the productive value by a race to the bottom of the barrel of paying people totally abysmal salaries. It is damaging.

You don't always need to downsize to become efficient, regardless of the economic system in place. In fact downsizing too much can also be inefficient.

But tell me, why would anyone remain in a commune, or in a cooperative, if wages are substantially higher outside of it?

[Julian658]

They aren't socialist for 2 reasons. For one, they don't own all property or means of production.

The second reason is that socialism is defined as an intermediate stage of capitalism. Cuba isn't capitalist, it isn't even developed (and that's what Marx was talking about).

As always, out of your depth, kiddo.

You are correct. They tried but socialism is difficult to achieve. That is why all marxists always say "that was not real socialism" when confronted with the abysmal failures of the past. The system always comes with an authoritarian government and a lot of repression.

Very well done! Nice of you to google the info, you learned something new.

[Politics_Observer]

@Tainari88

There is talk of Biden reversing the Cuba sanctions. About 80 House democrats are also urging Biden to reverse those sanctions. I personally feel we should reverse those sanctions and allow business and trade to take place between Cuba and the United States and establish good diplomatic relations with the Cubans. The Cold War is over and it's time to move on to the future. I think Obama was correct in his policy towards Cuba. Here is the article in regards to the possibility that Biden will reverse Trump's stupid policy towards Cuba. Trump's use of American power smacks of bullying. And we all know Trump is a bully.

Eighty U.S. House of Representatives Democrats urged President Joe Biden on Tuesday to repeal Donald Trump’s “cruel” sanctions on Cuba and renew engagement, an early sign of support in Congress for easing the clamp-down on the Communist-run country.

In a letter to Biden seen by Reuters they urged the Democratic president to sign an executive order “without delay” to end restrictions on travel and remittances, noting that well over half of Cubans depend on the latter.

“With the stroke of a pen, you can assist struggling Cuban families and promote a more constructive approach,” they said.

The letter was led by lawmakers Bobby Rush, Gwen Moore, Barbara Lee and Steve Cohen, long-time supporters of engagement with Cuba. Signers also included the leaders of the influential House of Representatives Foreign Affairs, Financial Services and Appropriations committees.

Biden, a Democrat, vowed during his campaign to reverse policy shifts by the Republican Trump that “have inflicted harm on the Cuban people and done nothing to advance democracy and human rights.”

Trump’s tightening of the decades-old U.S. trade embargo on Cuba has inflicted further pain on its ailing state-run economy, contributing to worsening shortages of food and medicine.

But Biden has not yet indicated whether he will fully revert to the historic detente initiated by Democratic former President Barack Obama when Biden was vice president.

“This letter, signed by a number of key powerbrokers in the House of Representatives, will help empower U.S. foreign policy officials in the Biden administration who seek to rebuild what Trump destroyed - a constructive, productive and civil approach toward Cuba and its people,” said Peter Kornbluh, co-author of “Back Channel to Cuba” and senior analyst at the National Security Archive.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cuba ... SKBN2AV1HS

[late]

You are correct. They tried but socialism is difficult to achieve. That is why all marxists always say "that was not real socialism" when confronted with the abysmal failures of the past. The system always comes with an authoritarian government and a lot of repression.

Very well done! Nice of you to google the info, you learned something new.

I knew that the day you were born.

You were wrong, and you will keep repeating that same brain dead nonsense.

[Tainari88]

You don't always need to downsize to become efficient, regardless of the economic system in place. In fact downsizing too much can also be inefficient.

But tell me, why would anyone remain in a commune, or in a cooperative, if wages are substantially higher outside of it?

Where are they substantially higher? In the two dollar hour Mexican scene? Or Wyoming with 2.50 an hour for wait staff and $5.15 an hour in farm work or do you want mass lay offs with many people don't want to lose the job because they are not full time with bennies and are stuck with not even getting an unemployment check?

People who can get very excellent salaries also worry about downsizing. The threat is if a computer can do it cheaper and a Tesla self driving delivery truck can do the job cheaper? You should do labor studies. It really tells you where capitalist squeezing is the most acute.

[Politics_Observer]

@XogGyux

Here is a question I have. Even if Cuba's economic policies are failed policies, Cuba today doesn't seem to represent any sort of threat to the United States. How they decide to govern themselves or run their economy is none of our business. So, why not lift the embargo regardless? The Cold War is long over with. We trade with communist China (or we did before Trump started a trade war with them) why not trade with the Cubans? What is your take on this?

Edit: OK I see where you think we should lift the embargo. I agree with you. I might not like Cuba's government but it is none of my business and Cuba is no threat to the U.S. so I just assume lift the embargo and allow American tourists and companies to trade with Cuba as long as Cuba doesn't become a threat to our national security which I seriously doubt it will. It is up to the Cuban people to choose their own government or to change it if that is what they want. It is not up to the U.S.

[Pants-of-dog]

Ok POD

Describe how a government that wants socialism can make 100% of the citizens embrace socialism. What happens if some citizens are capitalists and establish a private business? How can the government prevent that?

By making it illegal.

The same way capitalism makes socialism and Indigenous economic systems illegal.

Have you never heard of laws against theft?

Capitalism enforces itself by gunpoint on those who disagree with it. Are you how going to argue that capitalism is impossible without coercion and therefore all capitalist countries are authoritarian?

[wat0n]

Where are they substantially higher? In the two dollar hour Mexican scene? Or Wyoming with 2.50 an hour for wait staff and $5.15 an hour in farm work or do you want mass lay offs with many people don't want to lose the job because they are not full time with bennies and are stuck with not even getting an unemployment check?

People who can get very excellent salaries also worry about downsizing. The threat is if a computer can do it cheaper and a Tesla self driving delivery truck can do the job cheaper? You should do labor studies. It really tells you where capitalist squeezing is the most acute.

In Israel, back when the Kibbutzim were very popular and there were many of those, many Kibbutzim started to bleed young people out because they would find better jobs in the cities. This happened from the 1980s onwards, and I think is still happening to a lesser extent today.

[Julian658]

By making it illegal.

POD
That is authoritarian. Thanks for being truthful.

[Julian658]

@XogGyux

Here is a question I have. Even if Cuba's economic policies are failed policies, Cuba today doesn't seem to represent any sort of threat to the United States. How they decide to govern themselves or run their economy is none of our business. So, why not lift the embargo regardless? The Cold War is long over with. We trade with communist China (or we did before Trump started a trade war with them) why not trade with the Cubans? What is your take on this?

Edit: OK I see where you think we should lift the embargo. I agree with you. I might not like Cuba's government but it is none of my business and Cuba is no threat to the U.S. so I just assume lift the embargo and allow American tourists and companies to trade with Cuba as long as Cuba doesn't become a threat to our national security which I seriously doubt it will. It is up to the Cuban people to choose their own government or to change it if that is what they want. It is not up to the U.S.

I agree! The embargo was the excuse the Cubans used for decades to explain the economic misery. But, since 2019 Cuba has decided to embrace some capitalism so this is the time.