[XogGyux]

@XogGyux wrote:



I think it is going to be highly surprising. Do you see how much has changed in the last 20 years? A lot.

Mexico has changed a lot in my lifetime XogGyux.

Women here are getting organized and demanding justice. And they are loud, and insistent and well funded.

They are freezing bank accounts. The corrupt are pissed. And the only mass protests are rich people in SUVs with some exceptions.

Mexico has very serious problems. All nations do XogGyux. But they have to cope with all of the problems. They must.

It is a tough task.

You know when my mother died it was so hard for me. It was after she died that I realized? My God, she did enormous work. Influential work. Human rights work. Educating people work. Advocating for free health care, literacy programs for people and regions of the world with illiteracy, preserving cultures of Native Americans and making life better for a lot of people. They all came out in the funeral. I HAD NO IDEA.

She never bragged or spouted about how she was changing the world. But she was. With caring. She was never cynical. Improvement can happen.

I have learned a lot about human behavior over the years. People will do incredibly great things and will rise to the level of expectation. But it takes the many with means, power and will to stop wanting to control and exploit. Put down the selfish acquisition insistent lack of respect for others....and do a lot for each person. Each society.

I can't change the world in huge numbers but I can change my life and help those in need around me. It might only be one person or two....but if they like what I am doing? They might go and do more and touch more lives. A ripple effect.

That is how most positive human change happens @XogGyux . Un pasito a la vez.

Human defects are present in all human societies. So are its virtues. Think about the virtues. And make your best efforts to bring forth good results.

I wish you every success. If ever you want to discuss Puerto Rico and Cuba and the history of any Caribbean island? Give me a hint. I will start it. I love the Caribbean region and decided to study each island individually. A very interesting and fascinating pattern emerged. ¿Si te interesa me lo preguntas?

I think Cuba will surprise you within your lifetime. Puerto Rico has surprised the hell out of me lately. Never would have believed it.

You know what, if I am surprised I'll enjoy it, I hope you are right but I will not calibrate my expectations to that tune because it is not very realistic in my opinion but my crystal ball to see the future is cloudy.
That being said I can tell you I just got out of that stall and that the toilet is not working and is overflowing, you can go in and see for yourself but you might get crap in your shoes. In other words, as far as I am concerned there is little if anything that can be taken as an example from the Cuban government. Cuban history is interesting, the culture is rich, the beaches are gorgeous, the people are good and smart, the food is awesome I don't smoke or drink but I have been told that is OK as well. Cuban government? That is pure unadulterated crap. Praising it, as far as I am concerned has only 1 outcome, ridicule and hindrance of your political point. I don't know how it is the political situation in Mexico but here in the US, not a single conservative will look kindly at you if you are defending cuban nonsense, and on the other hand, 90%+ democrats/independents don't see it favorable either. I am not afraid of a Bernie, I am not Afraid of an AOC either, nothing that they have ever supported resembles a Cuba. I do dislike when they say something favorable, not necesarily because they might be wrong but because the optics are fuking idiotic, like I said, I don't think any of these political figures support a cuba-like system in any way shape or form. The optics are important.

[Julian658]

What would a day be without some lies from you?

The UN uses infant mortality as a quick n dirty way to measure the quality of a health care system. There was one year, in the 1980s (which figures) when Cuba did better than the USA at infant mortality.

Fidel prob did that on purpose. But it does tell a tale...

But if you look at the 1960s, when the situation in Cuba was still a bit volatile, all Fidel had to do was point at Guatamala.

I have some homework for you clowns that have delusions of competence. Compare and contrast Cuba and Guatamala in any year in the 1960s.

The theme of Cuba always causes the socialists that live in la la land to come out. Yes, if you are very poor socialism works because your socioeconomic status goes from very poor to just poor. If you are middle class and above you lose big time. if I was as poor as you are I would also be a socialist.

[late]

Please this is ridiculous.


If they did... you wouldnt have generations of old cubans crying that Fidel took their stuff. One of my grandparents died 10 years ago and gave to my grandmother a bucket full of his old tittles and properties for shit he had in cuba, just in case. We kept telling him that his beautiful 3 bedroom apartment was probably converted to a solar and probably had a barbacoa added and chances are 6 families live there... that is offcourse assuming that the property still stands, chances are after 70 years of no repairs it has either fallen or near collapse.

Because I don't agree with your nonsense I am on a coma? Please.
Also, I don't drink coffee, I don't like the bitter taste.

No, it's not. The situation was typical for the era, the handful of rich treated the rest little better than slaves.

Which is how we got into this idiotic discussion. I pointed out that if the people got seriously pissed, they could have done to Castro what they did to Batista.

We invaded the damn country expecting the peasants to rise up. They didn't.

They liked things better under Castro.

We could have had a lot of influence in Cuba. But our policy was what the old Cubans wanted, and they wanted us to invade, so they could treat their fellow Cubans like slaves again.

Does Cuba suck? Of course, but let's not ignore how and why things got that way.

Btw, I drink tea these days. I like coffee, but I am old, and my innards can't handle it anymore. But I do have fond memories of Cuban coffee, in Florida.

[Julian658]

I love children and they seem to love me, which I take as a great compliment ... You cannot fool little kids …… they are so sweet, unspoiled and innocent.

Top pic taken in Cuba ( I LOVE the pigtails)…. lower pic i'm with 3 step granddaughters.

Virtue signaling:

Virtue signalling rose in popularity as a pejorative term, denouncing empty acts of public commitment (such as slacktivism and pathological altruism) to unexceptional good causes.[citation needed] Virtue signalling may incorporate some or all elements found in political correctness, self-righteousness, and moral superiority. In Bartholomew's original article, he describes virtue signalling as a public act with very little associated cost that is intended to inform others of one's socially acceptable alignment on an issue.[5] WIKI

[late]

if I was as poor as you are I would also be a socialist.

I'm not as rich as Jimjam, but I own my house, drive a Prius, and we ride electric bikes that cost $2-3K. I have a custom bicycle that cost over $3K, and my wife has a Rivendell (not cheap).

I had lunch today at a nice restaurant.

And I'm not a Socialist, but then you do love your lies.

[Julian658]

Learn to read.

I have been mostly talking about the first decade of Cuba under Castro.

OMG, how naive! You are really a rabid left winger, AOC type!!

[Julian658]

I'm not as rich as Jimjam, but I own my house, drive a Prius, and we ride electric bikes that cost $2-3K. I have a custom bicycle that cost over $3K, and my wife has a Rivendell (not cheap).

I had lunch today at a nice restaurant.

And I'm not a Socialist, but then you do love your lies.

All socialists are misleading and hide their true ideology. That is what Fidel did before taking over Cuba.

[late]

OMG, how naive!

My point was that things got better for most Cubans under Castro during the first decade he was in power.

Which is true. It's also why our attempts to get rid of him failed.

[XogGyux]

They liked things better under Castro.

Again, that is a simplistic view, also a very irrelevant. It is simplistic because it negates the whole psychology of human beings. We can invade N Korea, it does not mean the people will revolt and help us. Furthermore, if they don't revolt, that also does not mean that they like their system better than ours.
The whole "invasion" was meant to fail... what other outcome did you expect? you are attacking a whole country with 1000 people... a handful or planes against an enemy that outnumbers you 30 to one?
And it is irrelevant, because even if we buy the premise that just 2 years after the revolution people still loved fidel... so what?

[late]

All socialists are misleading and hide their true ideology.

I am a Progressive that supported Liz Warren during the primaries.

I'm also as subtle as a brick.

You, on the other hand, lie constantly, and I doubt you have an ideology.

[late]

Again, that is a simplistic view, also a very irrelevant.

It is simplistic because it negates the whole psychology of human beings. We can invade N Korea, it does not mean the people will revolt and help us. Furthermore, if they don't revolt, that also does not mean that they like their system better than ours.


The whole "invasion" was meant to fail... what other outcome did you expect? you are attacking a whole country with 1000 people... a handful or planes against an enemy that outnumbers you 30 to one?

It came up in response to what you were saying.

Our system was never an option. The Batista regime was corrupt, violent and nothing like a democracy.

The invasion wasn't meant to fail, it was simply a bad idea. At that point, the last thing Cubans wanted was to go back to the way things were.

[XogGyux]

It came up in response to what you were saying.

Our system was never an option. The Batista regime was corrupt, violent and nothing like a democracy.

The invasion wasn't meant to fail, it was simply a bad idea. At that point, the last thing Cubans wanted was to go back to the way things were.

It was not an option? Fidel was forced to be the dictator 50+ years? He couldn't you know... step down? Encourage people to elect a democratic system?

I never argued that what existed prior was bad, possibly even worse if we only focus on the first few years prior and after the revolution.

Unless you are subscribing to a non-linear timline and/or believe in the existence of time travel, the inevitability of history is self-evident, however, we are not forced to praise it, or repeat it.

[late]

It was not an option?

I never argued that what existed prior was bad, possibly even worse if we only focus on the first few years prior and after the revolution.

Unless you are subscribing to a non-linear timeline and/or believe in the existence of time travel, the inevitability of history is self-evident, however, we are not forced to praise it, or repeat it.

Nope. Not a chance. If we had invaded, they would have gotten another strong man. Like Fidel, but our guy. C'mon, this is history 101.

You were saying something silly.

Like I said, they would have gotten another brutal strongman (or dictator). We talked a lot about democracy back then, but outside Europe, you were more likely to get the CIA.

[Julian658]

I am a Progressive that supported Liz Warren during the primaries.

I'm also as subtle as a brick.

You, on the other hand, lie constantly, and I doubt you have an ideology.

I have stated my views before.

I am a centrist in favor of national health care, abortion, and lgbtqia rights.

I want police retraining and favor reparations for Americans that are descendants of slaves in the form of high end prep high disciplinary school education.

Like Skaboj Zizek a well known communist philosopher I detest PC ideology, virtue signaling, and phony white guilt filled with condescending racism of low expectations.

I detest socialism as it does not work.

I do not think the new trend by minorities of embracing the role of the noble victim is a good idea.

Lastly, I am against race ID politics as it also encourages ID politics on the right.

[XogGyux]

Nope. Not a chance. If we had invaded, they would have gotten another strong man. Like Fidel, but our guy. C'mon, this is history 101.

You were saying something silly.

Like I said, they would have gotten another brutal strongman (or dictator). We talked a lot about democracy back then, but outside Europe, you were more likely to get the CIA.

That is not the point. First, we cannot prove that. Second, even if I grant you that possibility, that does not mean the current system works. Lets assume you are right, lets say that the ONLY alternative system that Cuba could have had is just as bad. All we are left is 2 bad systems. How do you go from 2 bad systems to praising one of the two? It does not follow!. Second, your whole premise is wrong. Fidel could have said... hey, for the first time in hundreds of years cubans have the opportunity to govern themselves, how about we set up a democratically elected goverment, we think socialism/socialist ideas are better but we will be open to every idea and democratically analyze them and if the cuban people say socialism, we will pursue that, if at some point they say something else, we will pursue that other thing, and btw I dont want to be a dictator, I'll stay for the first 10 years if you would have me... but after that you guys better have a replacement in mind by then...
No, it didn't HAVE TO HAPPEN this way but it did. And no, this system is good by any measures, the country got worse.

[Tainari88]

You know what, if I am surprised I'll enjoy it, I hope you are right but I will not calibrate my expectations to that tune because it is not very realistic in my opinion but my crystal ball to see the future is cloudy.
That being said I can tell you I just got out of that stall and that the toilet is not working and is overflowing, you can go in and see for yourself but you might get crap in your shoes. In other words, as far as I am concerned there is little if anything that can be taken as an example from the Cuban government. Cuban history is interesting, the culture is rich, the beaches are gorgeous, the people are good and smart, the food is awesome I don't smoke or drink but I have been told that is OK as well. Cuban government? That is pure unadulterated crap. Praising it, as far as I am concerned has only 1 outcome, ridicule and hindrance of your political point. I don't know how it is the political situation in Mexico but here in the US, not a single conservative will look kindly at you if you are defending cuban nonsense, and on the other hand, 90%+ democrats/independents don't see it favorable either. I am not afraid of a Bernie, I am not Afraid of an AOC either, nothing that they have ever supported resembles a Cuba. I do dislike when they say something favorable, not necesarily because they might be wrong but because the optics are fuking idiotic, like I said, I don't think any of these political figures support a cuba-like system in any way shape or form. The optics are important.

I don't hang around with Cubans with an agenda. I hang around with people from Cuba who live in Mexico and struggle to make end's meet.

These are the kinds of conversations I have with Cubans here:

Me: Tell me what you want to do with your life Kelsey?

Kelsey: I am thinking of moving to Spain with my boys. That Mexican lawyer took my whole life savings of $15,000 and left me with a son and debts. I work some pizzas caseras and chicken wings and I never finished college in Cuba. Here I got to work because my mother is sick. I need to make enough money to pay for a house and get a little car. But the wages here are so low. I need to go to the USA but my brother has been there for four years and all he can get is working two jobs. One for Uber and another one for delivering pizzas. After he pays the bills it is tough for him to save. He thinks if he learned more English and maybe studied for business school? It is tough leaving for the states. My uncle says the Spanish government is giving away some visas if you have kids and can prove you are in need of Spanish European Union work visas.

Me: Uh, Kelsey Spain is not cheap like Mexico. The pressure to make more money with kids is real. The Spaniards are fairly well educated and you will be competing for jobs with EU professionals who can do office work in various languages. Be realistic.

Kelsey: I need a higher salary! Mexico doesn't pay. When I first got here I was so excited. Stocked grocery stores and you can buy anything if you have the pesos for it. But now I see the problem is earning the pesos to buy all the things one loves to see in the stores and buying it for your loved ones? It is hard. It is not about the merchandise not being available it is about not making enough to buy it.

Me: That is capitalism in Latin America Kelsey. Your experience is not unique. What I think the answer for you is to cooperate among many to pool your resources and work on it together. 25 Cubans and some Mexicans, some Guatemalans but it must be about TRUST and respect. Pool the resources and work and build something together.

Kelsey: I trust you. How about you do it with us? Teach us English and how to attract foreign tourist dollars and then a bunch of little businesses.

Me: Hmmm. Why do I end up working when I just want to write and do translations?

Kelsey: You can't say no now. I need some English and can't pay. How about I do some service for you? The old fashioned barter system. Animate Chica!


Tranquility is not in my future @XogGyux you young ones with fine minds and full of energia juvenil. You need to be doing these things.

BTW, the problem is people voting democratically but again, if it is messed with? It is problematic. Got to do the reasonable thing. Let the people decide without coercion many different models. Can't have corrupt government. People get sick of that very fast.

[jimjam]

I happen to think people (after traveling a lot during my lifetime) have the same needs. Human needs. And if they are decent caring people and got together?

Nothing could stop the great accomplishments. Nothing.

I think you are going to be doing much better Jimjam. Soon all will be well again!

You caused me to re think my comment of electing "less bad" people to positions of power. My overall opinion on the nature of the human race is quite cynical ---- based upon study of history and human nature. Due to defects and weaknesses in human nature I am not very optimistic in the prospects of long term survival of the species (A population bomb and climate destruction do not help.) I rethought my "less bad" comment in the context of recent American history and feel that two leaders in my time were devoted to the greater good of the most people: F.D.R. and J.F.K. ----- FDR left behind an amazing legacy that even today puts food on the tables of millions of "ordinary" folks. JFK stood up to the desire of the ruling class to "retake" Cuba by force. He was murdered by one of the most evil men in history, Alan Dulles, for his position on Cuba as well as for initiating a process of withdrawing troops from Vietnam.

Things are far from black and white however. LBJ followed the orders of the military industrial complex as delivered by Dulles and quickly drew millions into the devil's den of Vietnam causing unmeasurable death and suffering but ……………….. LBJ left behind an amazing legacy of Medicare/Medicaid that has alleviated economic misery for , once again, "ordinary" folks. No way whatsoever would the Republican greed mongers of today permit such a large helping hand to be extended to "ordinary" folk.

Thank you Ms T for your good wishes. I am improving daily. My daily pain level has fallen from a solid 10 to a 3 today.

[Julian658]

I don't hang around with Cubans with an agenda. I hang around with people from Cuba who live in Mexico and struggle to make end's meet.

These are the kinds of conversations I have with Cubans here:

Me: Tell me what you want to do with your life Kelsey?

Kelsey: I am thinking of moving to Spain with my boys.

Unemployment in Spain is 16%. They do not like it when Latin Americans come over to take their jobs away or come to use resources designated to help Spaniards. They even have a derogatory name for Latin Americans and that is "sudaca". Miami would be a much better choice.

[Julian658]

That is not the point. First, we cannot prove that. Second, even if I grant you that possibility, that does not mean the current system works. Lets assume you are right, lets say that the ONLY alternative system that Cuba could have had is just as bad. All we are left is 2 bad systems. How do you go from 2 bad systems to praising one of the two? It does not follow!. Second, your whole premise is wrong. Fidel could have said... hey, for the first time in hundreds of years cubans have the opportunity to govern themselves, how about we set up a democratically elected goverment, we think socialism/socialist ideas are better but we will be open to every idea and democratically analyze them and if the cuban people say socialism, we will pursue that, if at some point they say something else, we will pursue that other thing, and btw I dont want to be a dictator, I'll stay for the first 10 years if you would have me... but after that you guys better have a replacement in mind by then...
No, it didn't HAVE TO HAPPEN this way but it did. And no, this system is good by any measures, the country got worse.

In 1898 Cuba and Puerto Rico were the only two remaining Spanish possessions in the new world. If the Americans had not interfered it is quite possible Cuba and PR would have the same status as the Canary Islands. You would have gone to college and Med school in Spain rather than the US. Taínari would be complaining about Spain rather than the USA.

[jimjam]

I'm not as rich as Jimjam

I hardly consider myself "rich". I studied the capitalist game and avoided it's most dangerous traps: debt, consumerism , etc. I did mot so much "make" money as I avoided wasting money. I was born in NYC but consider myself a good Yankee.

Also I had the good luck to purchase a house on top of Munjoy Hill (with the Portland Observatory in my back yard) 34 years ago