The War on Cuba Part I and II - Page 16 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15169982
Pants-of-dog wrote:And yet you think 82 people arrived on Granma and took over the country.

The story of Fidel and "El Che" is magical POD. No one denies that. I know that makes you happy and with reason.
Che tried the same in Bolivia. He was frustrated in that the poor Bolivians did not speak Spanish. El Che was unable to disseminate his message. Bolivia remains a divided nation of Spaniards and Indigenous.

BTW, I believe things in Cuba are getting better since they decided to allow private property and people to work for themselves. I know a You Tuber that comes form a Family of Doctors that were earning 40 USD a month. Very smart guy That was accepted to the best school and university in Cuba. He decided to be a You Tube comedian and is doing great. He bought an Audi luxury car which in Cuba is considered rich. Thankfully the Cuban government is allowing this young man to be an entrepreneur.
#15169984
late wrote:Of course, but as always, you are still dodging the obvious.

That there were not only benefits, they were multi-generational. So while you flap your gums about parenting, that is a concrete way to improve it for the next generation...

Yes, that too. Better parents produce better children and so forth----------------is generational. In some circles it is known as privilege passed down from generation to generation.
Why not focus on parenting? Is that too much of a conservative talking point?
I bet a case of Coca Cola you had a great mother.
#15169986
Tainari88 wrote:
You come from a long line of Cuban doctors XogGyux and you worked hard on becoming one that works in the USA and has to attend patients during crisis.

You will always be an asset to the USA and to your family.

I wish all health professionals in Latin America were treated like what they are. A big asset and people who do for society.

Every doctor in Latin America who cares about medicine and has ethics and standards of care that benefit the patients they serve? Deserve excellent pay, vacation, self care and a high standard of job satisfaction. Being respected, and heard. And to be considered in all government decisions.

You are happy being in the USA. I am glad. And I am happy for you.

Para mi siempres serás un éxito XogGuyx.

;)

You are so nice. Not sure if I deserve your praise but I'll keep working on improving myself/others as best as I can.

Pants-of-dog wrote:And yet you think 82 people arrived on Granma and took over the country.

This is the problem with idolization, you end up with an idea in your head that is not quite accurate.
The granma landing was not an invasion either. In fact, it was pretty much a failure. Of those 82 people, about 3/4th either died on arrival or were captured and executed.
It is easier now with the hindsight of history to paint it like some sort of heroic victory but what it really was is a massacre.

Tainari88 wrote:

Most of them got shot. Or captured and imprisoned. Only about one dozen made it into hiding in the Sierra Maestra Pants.

This dozen that later grew into 21, included Che, Fidel, Raul, and a few others. They were able to survive due to the guajiros and guajiras of the mountains. Also they had strict rules.




Fidel bluffed and said there were many fighters when Batista's men had an overwhelming advantage.

The rebel army grew with the contributions of the peasants in Cuba. Many who never got any real help from Havana or Batista's government and only got taxed or burdened with bad policy. This goes to show again like in Tenotchitlan (Mexico City in 1521) that if you make internal enemies due to bad policies? Your ass is grass.


Pretty much this. Not to mention young students around the country who confronted the government, pushed public opinion, etc.

If you want to claim Bay of pigs was a de-stabilizing move backed by the US government, I'll grant you that. If you want to say it was unwarranted, imperialistic, a "bully move" and ultimately counterproductive... I'll happily grant you all that. But calling it an invasion by the US is a bit too much :lol:
#15169989
XogGyux wrote:This is the problem with idolization, you end up with an idea in your head that is not quite accurate.
The granma landing was not an invasion either. In fact, it was pretty much a failure. Of those 82 people, about 3/4th either died on arrival or were captured and executed.
It is easier now with the hindsight of history to paint it like some sort of heroic victory but what it really was is a massacre.


Exactly.

In every comparable point, the Granma arrival was less likely to have an impact than the Bay of Pigs.

So, to argue that the Bay of Pigs was insignificant and was never meant to be a big deal is to argue that the Granma landing was also supposed to be just as insignificant.

And yet this was not the case.

Obviously, the Cubans who were in the pocket of the US (and living in exile) and the CIA thought it was supposed to work.
#15169991
XogGyux wrote:Yeah... 1400 people taking control of a whole country. My high school had more people than that. :lol:

Um …… did you somehow miss the part about two destroyers holding two battalions of US Marines waiting just off shore from the bay of pigs? Oh ……. also the US air force standing on alert?

A profound example of selective reading ……. :lol: As I suggested …… study history before responding hysterically.
#15169992
XogGyux wrote:You are so nice. Not sure if I deserve your praise but I'll keep working on improving myself/others as best as I can.


This is the problem with idolization, you end up with an idea in your head that is not quite accurate.
The granma landing was not an invasion either. In fact, it was pretty much a failure. Of those 82 people, about 3/4th either died on arrival or were captured and executed.
It is easier now with the hindsight of history to paint it like some sort of heroic victory but what it really was is a massacre.



Pretty much this. Not to mention young students around the country who confronted the government, pushed public opinion, etc.

If you want to claim Bay of pigs was a de-stabilizing move backed by the US government, I'll grant you that. If you want to say it was unwarranted, imperialistic, a "bully move" and ultimately counterproductive... I'll happily grant you all that. But calling it an invasion by the US is a bit too much :lol:


What I find interesting in the extreme is what happened in Mexico City prior to the Granma scheme.

The CIA had infiltrated Fidel's group. He had fed the landing date to the CIA and the CIA fed that information to Batista's group. After all Cuba is pretty big in size and a lot of beaches there. It was a massacre.

Fidel was a lawyer and Che a doctor. Neither were military people trained in tactical warfare. They did get training from a very important figure. He was a Spaniard from the Blue Squadron from Francisco Franco's Spanish Civil War. The commander had moved to Mexico City and he trained both of them to know how to shoot, strategize etc. It was not extensive but it was enough.

Blue Squadron from Spain was responsible for this during the Spanish Civil war:



Blue Division under WWII:



The Blue Division commander in Mexico City wound up training a Fidel that was ironically later on considered a Communist whom the Blue Division had fought in the USSR.

These sort of 'contradictions' happen in history people.

They were fierce.
#15169996
jimjam wrote:Um …… did you somehow miss the part about two destroyers holding two battalions of US Marines waiting just off shore from the bay of pigs? Oh ……. also the US air force standing on alert?

A profound example of selective reading ……. :lol: As I suggested …… study history before responding hysterically.

Want to talk about hysteria? Why don't you look yourself in the mirror and see how that person in the mirror feels about you defending a system which only redeeming quality is that it is not as bad as North Korea. :knife:
You got grandkids? how would you feel if when they are about 14y old we grab them, put them on a 50-year-old train with minimal safety features, send them to the middle of the country and make them pick up potatoes half a day. And when they go to sleep, they get to share their "quarters" with other 70 kids.. and when they go to poop they get to poop in a broken toilet that overflows into the floor which is full of urine and shit, and when they go to eat all they have is white rice with beans and when they wake up next morning they have to sing to the revolution and be thankful for the opportunity granted by the revolution.
Hysteria is about the right reaction any half decent human being should have when contemplating the reality of cuba.
#15170001
XogGyux wrote:Want to talk about hysteria? Why don't you look yourself in the mirror and see how that person in the mirror feels about you defending a system which only redeeming quality is that it is not as bad as North Korea. :knife:
You got grandkids? how would you feel if when they are about 14y old we grab them, put them on a 50-year-old train with minimal safety features, send them to the middle of the country and make them pick up potatoes half a day. And when they go to sleep, they get to share their "quarters" with other 70 kids.. and when they go to poop they get to poop in a broken toilet that overflows into the floor which is full of urine and shit, and when they go to eat all they have is white rice with beans and when they wake up next morning they have to sing to the revolution and be thankful for the opportunity granted by the revolution.
Hysteria is about the right reaction any half decent human being should have when contemplating the reality of cuba.

That is the type of story I heard over and over again from Cubans in the USA and Puerto Rico.

Why do some people in America refuse to accept that. Btw, I am also hearing similar stories from Venezuelans.
Last edited by Julian658 on 29 Apr 2021 18:44, edited 1 time in total.
#15170007
late wrote:I just did.

Try just plan focusing, for a change of pace.

Compañero
The is the first time we agree on something. Great parenting is the key. ¡Gracias por el consejo!
#15170016
XogGyux wrote:Want to talk about hysteria? Why don't you look yourself in the mirror and see how that person in the mirror feels about you defending a system which only redeeming quality is that it is not as bad as North Korea. :knife:
You got grandkids? how would you feel if when they are about 14y old we grab them, put them on a 50-year-old train with minimal safety features, send them to the middle of the country and make them pick up potatoes half a day. And when they go to sleep, they get to share their "quarters" with other 70 kids.. and when they go to poop they get to poop in a broken toilet that overflows into the floor which is full of urine and shit, and when they go to eat all they have is white rice with beans and when they wake up next morning they have to sing to the revolution and be thankful for the opportunity granted by the revolution.
Hysteria is about the right reaction any half decent human being should have when contemplating the reality of cuba.


The only thing I was defending was historical accuracy ….. seemingly a rare commodity.

Um (again) I will assume that by your response of poop and toilets that you disagree that a US military force was waiting just offshore from the bay of pigs to "rescue" the doomed to failure "invasion" by 1400 CIA trained operatives.

Cool, let's move on.
#15170017
Julian658 wrote:
This is the first time we agree on something. Great parenting is the key.





We need good programs that enable parenting, like Head Start.
#15170019
jimjam wrote:The only thing I was defending was historical accuracy ….. seemingly a rare commodity.

Um (again) I will assume that by your response of poop and toilets that you disagree that a US military force was waiting just offshore from the bay of pigs to "rescue" the doomed to failure "invasion" by 1400 CIA trained operatives.

Cool, let's move on.

And where was my history "inadequate"?
Here is the thing, just because they were supportive and postured does not mean that the US had a serious attempt at invading Cuba. The reality is, that for the last 100 years if the US really wanted to invade cuba all they had to do is just go there and plant the flag, there is really not much in the way of military resistance that they can offer. The best-case scenario, if the US does not want to light the whole fucking island into a large bonfire, is that a few people go into the jungle and become a nuisance, but don't expect Vietnam-style sort of resistance.

The US is not an innocent angel when it comes to foreign interventions, aggression, and imperialistic tendencies and I have openly criticized for it. However, this is all a distraction, it has been a distraction all along. Cuba has been a failure because it has been destroyed from inside out. It has been a dictatorship by a regime that is blind, corrupt leaders that only care about themselves. It has become a country of petty theft, economic stagnation.
#15170025
XogGyux wrote:And where was my history "inadequate"?
Here is the thing, just because they were supportive and postured does not mean that the US had a serious attempt at invading Cuba. The reality is, that for the last 100 years if the US really wanted to invade cuba all they had to do is just go there and plant the flag, there is really not much in the way of military resistance that they can offer. The best-case scenario, if the US does not want to light the whole fucking island into a large bonfire, is that a few people go into the jungle and become a nuisance, but don't expect Vietnam-style sort of resistance.

The US is not an innocent angel when it comes to foreign interventions, aggression, and imperialistic tendencies and I have openly criticized for it. However, this is all a distraction, it has been a distraction all along. Cuba has been a failure because it has been destroyed from inside out. It has been a dictatorship by a regime that is blind, corrupt leaders that only care about themselves. It has become a country of petty theft, economic stagnation.


After you finalized the above post I managed to obtain a photo of the most ardent supporter of the Cuban revolution in this thread.
Image
#15170031
Julian658 wrote:After you finalized the above post I managed to obtain a photo of the most ardent supporter of the Cuban revolution in this thread.
Image

I don't know why, but sometimes it seems you are more focused on having your oposition experience pain than for you to have an accurate, reasonable and meaningful view. :knife:
#15170034
XogGyux wrote:Here is the thing, just because they were supportive and postured does not mean that the US had a serious attempt at invading Cuba.

I have no beef with you XogGyux and have no reason to doubt that current living conditions in Cuba for the people are, to say the least, abysmal. But my understanding of history is that the US was far more than supportive and posturing about an invasion of Cuba for the purpose of installing their own stooge who was willing to take orders. This was (is?) the M.O. of the Us; a prime example was the Allen Dulles operation to overthrow the government of Guatemala at the behest of United Fruit. Dulles was an expert at eliminating/over throwing governments that did not conform to his idea of bowing to US "interests". The most mind boggling was the American government itself under JFK …… that is another and long story.

Dulles was one cool operator and when the 1400 Cuban "invaders" waded ashore on April 17,1961 he was calmly sunning himself a thousand miles away at a Puerto Rican resort. He was expert at keeping his finger prints away from his crimes. The fly in Dulles' ointment was that even though he thought he had JFK trapped ….. he didn't count on JFK having the guts to escape his trap.

Here is something I posted earlier regarding Dulles' "assignment" , given to him by Eisenhower, to kick Cuba back into line:
In the closing days of his administration Eisenhower gave the ok to have Castro taken out. Unsurprisingly the job was given to America's reigning Nazi, Alan Dulles and his secret government. Upon taking office the plan was foisted upon JFK as a fait accompli. Eisenhower's final words to JFK were to take out the Cuban leader and he left behind an invasion plan and an assassination plot to do just that. The CIA's ongoing plot using Mafia to kill Castro would be coordinated with the invasion of Cuba by 1400 CIA trained invaders at the now infamous Bay of Pigs …….. an invasion that was planed from the get go to fail. The Joint Chiefs chairman Lyman Lemnitzer, in an act of insubordination to JFK, had positioned two battalions of marines on US warships just off the coast of Cuba whose job it was to be to "rescue" the CIA trained invaders after the Cuban army had surrounded them and, then, proceed with the invasion of Cuba by the American military. Eisenhower had, essentially, handed JFK a hand grenade with the pin pulled. After enduring a browbeating by pentagon and CIA officials, JFK stood fast and refused to turn the US military loose on Cuba. Dulles had seriously under estimated the young man in the White House. "Well they had me figured wrong. We're not going to plunge into irresponsible action just because a fanatical fringe in the country puts so called national pride above national reason." JFK

Unsurprisingly JFK's lack of cooperation with the Dulles plan played no small part in his subsequent murder by Dulles. That is another story ….. for sure.

An excellent read on Allan Dulles who, BTW, learned much from the Nazis in the 1940's, is The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot.
#15170038
XogGyux wrote:And where was my history "inadequate"?
Here is the thing, just because they were supportive and postured does not mean that the US had a serious attempt at invading Cuba.


No one said they wanted a military occupation. They wanted a neo-colonial relationship where some Cuban in the US pocket would extract wealth for them. This was, and is, the preferred model for US neo-imperialism. It costs less and makes the same amount of money.

The reality is, that for the last 100 years if the US really wanted to invade cuba all they had to do is just go there and plant the flag, there is really not much in the way of military resistance that they can offer. The best-case scenario, if the US does not want to light the whole fucking island into a large bonfire, is that a few people go into the jungle and become a nuisance, but don't expect Vietnam-style sort of resistance.


That was exactly what the Bay of Pigs invasion was supposed to accomplish: an insurgent force that would then receive US funding and would do US bidding on the island.

Unfortunately for them, the CIA and their pocket Cubans incorrectly assumed the people did not support the revolution.

The US is not an innocent angel when it comes to foreign interventions, aggression, and imperialistic tendencies and I have openly criticized for it. However, this is all a distraction, it has been a distraction all along. Cuba has been a failure because it has been destroyed from inside out. It has been a dictatorship by a regime that is blind, corrupt leaders that only care about themselves. It has become a country of petty theft, economic stagnation.


Then why has the US failed to “liberate” the island from the evil dictatorship?
#15170043
XogGyux wrote:I don't know why, but sometimes it seems you are more focused on having your oposition experience pain than for you to have an accurate, reasonable and meaningful view. :knife:

It is just a joke. I am simply ribbing an unknown poster (it could be one of many). It is not even personal.
#15170044
Pants-of-dog wrote:No one said they wanted a military occupation. They wanted a neo-colonial relationship where some Cuban in the US pocket would extract wealth for them. This was, and is, the preferred model for US neo-imperialism. It costs less and makes the same amount of money.


No one? That is kind of what they teach 24/7 in Cuba. What really happened was some sort-of clumsy espionage/mercenary distraction vs what they want you to believe is that the full force of the US came into them and they valiantly put an end to it because they have the mandate and because they are right. It is a whole bunch of nonsense. Similar to the embargo.

That was exactly what the Bay of Pigs invasion was supposed to accomplish: an insurgent force that would then receive US funding and would do US bidding on the island.

Unfortunately for them, the CIA and their pocket Cubans incorrectly assumed the people did not support the revolution.


That is part of the big lie. Just because the movement was popular early on, does not mean the overall outcome was good.
NAZI Germany was also popular early on... see how it turned out.

Then why has the US failed to “liberate” the island from the evil dictatorship?

Careful their buddy, you seem to hint (or perhaps not?) at the "well... the populous support it, because they haven't, revolted". Except you could make the same argument for every other dictatorship ever... right until the moment they do revolt and/or it ends by some other means. For instance North Korea... they must have very high quality of life there since nobody is trying to "liberate" themselves from the "evil dictatorship" right? Except it does not work like that. Part of a dictatorship is to control the narrative, control the politics, control the public.
#15170048
Pants-of-dog wrote:

Then why has the US failed to “liberate” the island from the evil dictatorship?


Towards the end of the 19th century the USA had a formidable Army and Navy. However, they were too late to the game of "conquering and colonizing" as had been done earlier by Spain, England, Portugal, etc.

I have to assume that the idea in 1898 was to create an overseas empire just as the English had done. Spain was on the decline and hence it was an easy decision to take the remaining Spanish colonies Cuba, Puerto Rico, plus the islands in the pacific. The invasion of Puerto Rico was a cakewalk.

It is quite possible the USA assumed it was playing the role of the liberator. And let's not forget America annexed Hawaii in the process. IN any event by 1960, the USA had given up on the idea of being the 2nd coming of the British Empire. That is why they allowed Castro to stay.

The USA intervene in many other Latin American nations. Here is the list:
https://www.yachana.org/teaching/resour ... tions.html
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