The War on Cuba Part I and II - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15167404
late wrote:"But there are also some much more positive sides to the Cuban experience. One of these—its health care system—was on display when I visited the country in mid-November with a delegation of American health care experts led by Michael Leavitt, the former Republican governor of Utah and secretary of health and human services under President George W. Bush. When it comes to health care, Cuba is a success story with few parallels.

Since its 1959 revolution, Cuba’s infant mortality rate has fallen from 37.3 to 4.3 per 1000 live births—a rate equivalent to Australia’s and lower than the United States’ (5.8). From 1970 to 2016 life expectancy increased from 70.04 to 78.7 years"
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2016/fidel-castros-health-care-legacy

"Prior to the revolution, the majority of the Cuban population was under the oppression of the Batista military dictatorship. There was no free government-funded health program, and the health services were essentially conformed according to social class. The population of Cuba consisted of a proportionately small wealthy class who owned and controlled the bulk of Cuban wealth"
https://www.radford.edu/~junnever/law/cuba.htm


Things got better for the vast majority under Castro. You obviously didn't look at Guatamala, which was your basic hell hole (and it got that way thanks to a CIA coup).

You also didn't acknowledge my point that we would have had a lot more influence if we hadn't let the corrupt Cubans in Miami buy our foreign policy.

This is ancient history, but I remember how the people of Cuba were supposed to rise up when we invaded at the Bay of Pigs. They didn't.

But all that stuff happened in the real world.


We've already dealt with infant mortality. Other Latin American countries saw similar decreases, by the way.

As for healthcare, it's also not clear that Cuban healthcare is world-class or comparable to countries with good systems. If you give me free shit, you're still giving me shit.

And the way for countries not to give shit, is economic growth and Cuba failed to deliver on that.
#15167406
Rancid wrote:The American left likes to romanticize Cuba. This fits with what they want to believe that absolutely everything that is wrong and evil in the world is due to the US/west.

I think you are right. It bothers me for many reasons. First and foremost, the whole proposition threatens my own sense of reality... somehow these people think that the shithole that me and my family ran away from is great? Oh boy. But more importantly, generally speaking this is political amunition... we saw it with last elections, the fear mongering, despite being complete non-sense, is powerful. I had family members that voted for trump because they were afraid Biden would make this country more like cuba... seriouly! what a dumb shit to believe, but sometimes fear can be irrational and when you spend 20 years (me) or 40years my mother's generation, or 60years+ (grandparents), suddently you don't really want to take risks. Seriously other than that 1 issue, there is nothing in the republican side that my family agrees with. We are all athesits, we could care less who gets abortions or not, we dont give a shit about what gay people do, I have close relatives that are in fact gay, and so forth. But that 1 lie... that the democrats are going to bring a cuba, a venezuela brings forth emotions and irrational behavior.
So yes, I do get pretty mad when people put forth these nonsense, specially when I don't even believe they understand what they are saying. Oh well...


XogGyux I am simply saying to go deeper into why there is poverty in our nations? Is it genes? No. Is it lack of ability to make money? No. Is it corruption, waste and pressure from wealthier nations that are manipulating things through international banking, using crony politics locally and so on to get things to work in their favor? Yes. Lack of ethics? Yes.

Again... and somehow you think the solution to your country's corruption is my country's corruption? There is fucking corruption in Cuba the same way everywhere else.
Didn't I just explain to you how the whole cuban economy moves around corruption?
The fact I cannot give you an answer of how to fix my country, or yours for that matter does not mean your premise is correct.

The Castro regime is basically over.

"Ver para creer"
70 years of the same shit does not get fix by raul saying good bye. As far as I am concerned, short of publicly admitting they were wrong and encouraging people to cordially participate in a full revamp of how the cuban goverment system works, there is not going to be a "quick fix" and even then, such approach would be dangerous.

Without a blockade it can do a lot especially trading with other islands like Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, Curacao and establishing better diplomatic ties with everyone in Europe in Asia,etc.

I don't think so. There are plenty of countries that trade with cuba, there are plenty of countries that would not give a shit. You think China would give a shit about the embargo? Politically speaking it would be advantageous for china, to have a close ally that is nearby the US?
There are spanish chains in cuba, Melia? Iberoamerica? Foreign companies used to have (I don't know if they still do) a stake on ETECSA, the telecommunications company of cuba. Cubana de aviacion would rent planes from airfrance, and so forth. Business do occur, trade do occur.
We both seem to agree that the embargo should go, for different reasons. I guarantee you, it won't do much to fix the problems that already exist because for those problems to be addresssed, the whole "goverment run economy" needs to scale the fuck back, and to do so, they would have to admit they were wrong. How often do you see a politician accept they were wrong for 70 years? 8) :lol:

Where is the future @XogGyux ?

The future is Grim, that is what I have been saying. 20-30 years ago if the cuba opened relationships, I would have told you it would do great. But education have been on a downward spiral in Cuba for the last 30-40 years, I don't think the new generations are ready for the world. Yes, they can addept and sell tourism and that will get them feeding money... but that alone I don't think can sustain the whole island with its 11million inhabitant and a non-existent infrastructure, not to mention the degrading soils that increasingly struggle to maintain aggriculture or the contamination of potable water. More tourism = more contamination, more degradation to the already full of pothole roads, more degradation to the antique buildings. I don't think it is sustainable that way.

My point was nations who are more powerful and impose bad conditions on poorer ones and want us to not have independence so they can sell more expensive consumer products to us and have a captive market. That is awful.

Well that has always been the case. Greece, Romans, Mongols, English, Spanish, French, etc etc etc. Compared to the big empires of the past, the US have been rather tame, not inocent, but not quite as aggressive comparatively speaking. Even China and Russia are quite bold now a days, Russia adventuring into Ukraine and China into the south china sea islands and border with india. Early on the US had a more aggressive colonial-like movements which perhaps were inherited from british mentality, but I don't think it is the case anymore.
It is not my purpose to be an apoligist to the US. You have seen my many prior threads and you have seen me criticize quite a bit. But pragmatically speaking, we have it good here and we have not been the evil rabid dog that some people like to believe.

Having the USA punish Puerto Ricans and Cubans for not wanting to give up the land to them for their exclusive attentions is wrong and bad world politics in general.

Im quite skeptic that the USA wants any land on Cuba or PR to be honest. There is plenty of uninhabited land, high quality land in our borders to be concerned about a tiny bit of land in the middle of the sea.
Yes at some point it had strategic value when humanity was shipping shit in wooden ships but its geographical value is far less attractive now a days. I really don't see it, I don't think the US gives a shit at all about cuba. The US cares in the sense that they are butthurt that big companies losts factories/etc + the embarrassment, but that is a moral/reputation concern, I don't really think the US cares at all about anything of "material value" in the island.

I have never been an authoritarian @XogGyux . I never liked it. So I would be against using violence and force to make people do what they are told through their government. I think the best thing is cooperation and at the same time being moral and economic leaders. And respectful and believers in equality in human relationships. It brings peace as a by product. A great thing.

Then stop applauding Cuba's regime because it is an authoritarian one.
Sending children to work in the countryside? Pick up boniato and papas? Living in crowded quarters, 50-70 inside the same hangar sharing a 2 shower bathroom with 1 "half-functioning" toliet (half of the time) that would often overflow and fill the whole bathroom with 4inches of water + poop + urine? With unsafe conditions (had a close friend of mine die electrocuted due to exposed high voltage lines next to were childrens were "working", Had multiple friends fall from a truck with dozens of them having severe injuries including fracture pelvis and femurs) Forcing 16 years old to do compulsory military service? (had family member die in this)? Yes, none of this crap makes it to the news... you only hear how "se sobrecumple la zafra de la papa" but you dont hear shit about the derailed train that were carrying thousands of teenagers to work in the country side that had dozens of deaths...
Give me a break.
#15167407
Rancid wrote:What you described is exactly natural....organic human behavior.


Well, then you are with @jimjam all we can hope for is a less bad politician.

You anarchistic tendencies man.

I happen to think humanity can do better than the less bad. Such cynics on PoFo....I should put you to work on that Phallusan and make you rich. You can move to Buenos Aires, Argentina and live the life of the rich and having fun in South America. You can spend a few more winters with Ted Cruz going to Cancun as the rest of you Texans freeze and defend the great future of bad politicians.

Come on darling Rancid, sing about the dream....of decent POLITICS where people are ethical and governments are honest and want to serve their citizens. Ethical, honest, hard working and equality and respect and transparency. I am old and think it can happen. You are younger and agree with @jimjam . I still can't see Ghost in the Shell. Horror.

Dream the impossible dream....I got another song for you Rancid.



He can´t sing. But the dream lives on....
#15167411
XogGyux wrote:I think you are right. It bothers me for many reasons. First and foremost, the whole proposition threatens my own sense of reality... somehow these people think that the shithole that me and my family ran away from is great? Oh boy. But more importantly, generally speaking this is political amunition... we saw it with last elections, the fear mongering, despite being complete non-sense, is powerful. I had family members that voted for trump because they were afraid Biden would make this country more like cuba... seriouly! what a dumb shit to believe, but sometimes fear can be irrational and when you spend 20 years (me) or 40years my mother's generation, or 60years+ (grandparents), suddently you don't really want to take risks. Seriously other than that 1 issue, there is nothing in the republican side that my family agrees with. We are all athesits, we could care less who gets abortions or not, we dont give a shit about what gay people do, I have close relatives that are in fact gay, and so forth. But that 1 lie... that the democrats are going to bring a cuba, a venezuela brings forth emotions and irrational behavior.
So yes, I do get pretty mad when people put forth these nonsense, specially when I don't even believe they understand what they are saying. Oh well...



Again... and somehow you think the solution to your country's corruption is my country's corruption? There is fucking corruption in Cuba the same way everywhere else.
Didn't I just explain to you how the whole cuban economy moves around corruption?
The fact I cannot give you an answer of how to fix my country, or yours for that matter does not mean your premise is correct.


"Ver para creer"
70 years of the same shit does not get fix by raul saying good bye. As far as I am concerned, short of publicly admitting they were wrong and encouraging people to cordially participate in a full revamp of how the cuban goverment system works, there is not going to be a "quick fix" and even then, such approach would be dangerous.


I don't think so. There are plenty of countries that trade with cuba, there are plenty of countries that would not give a shit. You think China would give a shit about the embargo? Politically speaking it would be advantageous for china, to have a close ally that is nearby the US?
There are spanish chains in cuba, Melia? Iberoamerica? Foreign companies used to have (I don't know if they still do) a stake on ETECSA, the telecommunications company of cuba. Cubana de aviacion would rent planes from airfrance, and so forth. Business do occur, trade do occur.
We both seem to agree that the embargo should go, for different reasons. I guarantee you, it won't do much to fix the problems that already exist because for those problems to be addresssed, the whole "goverment run economy" needs to scale the fuck back, and to do so, they would have to admit they were wrong. How often do you see a politician accept they were wrong for 70 years? 8) :lol:


The future is Grim, that is what I have been saying. 20-30 years ago if the cuba opened relationships, I would have told you it would do great. But education have been on a downward spiral in Cuba for the last 30-40 years, I don't think the new generations are ready for the world. Yes, they can addept and sell tourism and that will get them feeding money... but that alone I don't think can sustain the whole island with its 11million inhabitant and a non-existent infrastructure, not to mention the degrading soils that increasingly struggle to maintain aggriculture or the contamination of potable water. More tourism = more contamination, more degradation to the already full of pothole roads, more degradation to the antique buildings. I don't think it is sustainable that way.


Well that has always been the case. Greece, Romans, Mongols, English, Spanish, French, etc etc etc. Compared to the big empires of the past, the US have been rather tame, not inocent, but not quite as aggressive comparatively speaking. Even China and Russia are quite bold now a days, Russia adventuring into Ukraine and China into the south china sea islands and border with india. Early on the US had a more aggressive colonial-like movements which perhaps were inherited from british mentality, but I don't think it is the case anymore.
It is not my purpose to be an apoligist to the US. You have seen my many prior threads and you have seen me criticize quite a bit. But pragmatically speaking, we have it good here and we have not been the evil rabid dog that some people like to believe.


Im quite skeptic that the USA wants any land on Cuba or PR to be honest. There is plenty of uninhabited land, high quality land in our borders to be concerned about a tiny bit of land in the middle of the sea.
Yes at some point it had strategic value when humanity was shipping shit in wooden ships but its geographical value is far less attractive now a days. I really don't see it, I don't think the US gives a shit at all about cuba. The US cares in the sense that they are butthurt that big companies losts factories/etc + the embarrassment, but that is a moral/reputation concern, I don't really think the US cares at all about anything of "material value" in the island.


Then stop applauding Cuba's regime because it is an authoritarian one.
Sending children to work in the countryside? Pick up boniato and papas? Living in crowded quarters, 50-70 inside the same hangar sharing a 2 shower bathroom with 1 "half-functioning" toliet (half of the time) that would often overflow and fill the whole bathroom with 4inches of water + poop + urine? With unsafe conditions (had a close friend of mine die electrocuted due to exposed high voltage lines next to were childrens were "working", Had multiple friends fall from a truck with dozens of them having severe injuries including fracture pelvis and femurs) Forcing 16 years old to do compulsory military service? (had family member die in this)? Yes, none of this crap makes it to the news... you only hear how "se sobrecumple la zafra de la papa" but you dont hear shit about the derailed train that were carrying thousands of teenagers to work in the country side that had dozens of deaths...
Give me a break.


What is the solution? Puerto Rico´s problems are serious as can be. It is not a solution to think the USA will be just. It won´t.

What works is pressuring for change that is reasonable and just.

No one knows what happens in tiny island nations or in Cuba. We are not Empires and we don't control worldwide media.

What works are making changes with ethics XogGyux.

Again, I am not an authoritarian. But you are not answering what the future is for Cuba?

Because trusting an Empire like the USA to be just and transparent with what it does in Latin America is foolish XogGyux. The USA can slip easily into despotism. That Trump man almost was successful staying in power and who knows how many secrets he is going to sell off to make money and power grow for his unethical self? I don't trust nations with bad track records in Latin America.

I don't think Cuba or Puerto Rico are into building the Cuban or Puerto Rican Empire in the Caribbean islands. I think the realistic thing is to have a good balance. Not hegemony or dominance but peaceful and reasonable standards of living.

What do you think the solution is @XogGyux it is not a trick question. Hay que buscar una solucion.

Which is your path for Cuba, and Latin America. As an American citizen you got the power to be involved in change. Do so. Do so.

Don't get too busy with your work to not take a vacation and take your family with you. I know you got student debt. Find creative ways of paying it down.

Get your economic freedom. And help the ones over here in Mexico, in Guatemala, and everywhere else.

The shitholes are filled with beautiful people who only want you wanted for so many years. Help them darling.
#15167412
late wrote:The people in Cuba were finally getting health care, and the government was helping with food.

This is utter nonsense and it shows that you don't know what is going on there.
Have you seen Cuba's pharacies? Cuba's hospital?
How can you get away with advertising "I am giving you free healthcare" when I don't have ibuprofen, lisinopril and metformin to give you, for free or otherwise? Didn't you see the video posted at the begining? Don't blame the fucking embargo... the same people that are sending doctors to guatemala and interferons, vaccines, etc... Not long ago we had the resident wacko of the forum QatzelOk bragging about sophisticated lung cancer vaccines... yet cuban pharmacies that dispense medications to cuban people don't fucking have diabetic and hypertension medication. Have you seen the fucking diet of a cuban? It is pure lard, everything is fried... you don't think metformin and lisinopril are a tad more important than some fking nonsense experimental lung cancer vaccine?
You want free shit? How does a free Lamborghini super car sounds?
https://cdn-0.barnfinds.com/wp-content/ ... 30x390.jpg
:lol:
#15167413
wat0n wrote:


As for healthcare, it's also not clear that Cuban healthcare is world-class or comparable to countries with good systems. If you give me free shit, you're still giving me shit.

And the way for countries not to give shit, is economic growth and Cuba failed to deliver on that.



I did not say world class, you're trying to move the goalposts. There is simply no question that's it better than it was under Batista... You also haven't done a comparison with other latin american countries.

You are also ignoring the time frame. When Castro came to power, life was pretty crappy in most of latin america. So not only did he improve the lot of his people, they were a lot better off than the countries we had under our thumb.

Speaking of moving the goalposts, you are now trying to shift over to contemporary economics. Cuba is not great, but then neither are 10 other countries south of the border:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_American_and_Caribbean_countries_by_GDP_growth

Better luck next time.
#15167416
late wrote:I did not say world class, you're trying to move the goalposts. There is simply no question that's it better than it was under Batista... You also haven't done a comparison with other latin american countries.

You are also ignoring the time frame. When Castro came to power, life was pretty crappy in most of latin america. So not only did he improve the lot of his people, they were a lot better off than the countries we had under our thumb.

Speaking of moving the goalposts, you are now trying to shift over to contemporary economics. Cuba is not great, but then neither are 10 other countries south of the border:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_American_and_Caribbean_countries_by_GDP_growth

Better luck next time.


I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm clarifying what kind of free healthcare the Cuban state is able to provide.

Live in Latin America was indeed crappy, and crappier than now for sure, but almost all countries improved. Including many of course those aligned with the US - and they seem to have improved more than Cuba since the revolution.
#15167420
wat0n wrote:
I'm not moving the goalposts, I'm clarifying what kind of free healthcare the Cuban state is able to provide.



The hell you didn't. You said world class...
#15167421
late wrote:The hell you didn't. You said world class...


...Which is what people in the developed countries imagine when saying a country has free healthcare. I mean, if you don't care about quantity and quality there are even very poor African countries that don't charge for whatever healthcare services they offer.

They may make you wait forever to get treatment, and they may lack many medicines, doctors and other inputs necessary for them, but they won't charge you.
#15167423
Tainari88 wrote:What is the solution? Puerto Rico´s problems are serious as can be. It is not a solution to think the USA will be just. It won´t.

I don't claim to have a solution.
I don't think there is a quick solution anyways, certainly not for cuba. It took 70 years to get here... it will likely take another 70 years to fix. I don't think I will be alive to witness the revival.

What works is pressuring for change that is reasonable and just.

I agree, but don't let them get away with what they have done. I am ok forgiving a wrong, I am NOT OK ignoring a wrong. Cuba's system have been a disaster. It is not in me to wish the goverment people to be prosecuted or to be put on the gas chamber or tortured or some other kind of nonsense. But... I am not OK having them get away with more lies and falsehoods.

But you are not answering what the future is for Cuba?

I have, multiple times. I don't think the foreseeable future looks much different than the present. I don't know what it will look in 50 years, but I don't think in 10 years it will be any different at all.

What do you think the solution is @XogGyux it is not a trick question. Hay que buscar una solucion.

Listen, what I have to say on the matter is not something that you are keen on listening. I don't have the solution. But I can tell you what does not work. I can tell you that what cuba has does not work.
Furthermore, "communism" is not a solution to human greed and corruption. It is certainly not a fix as far as cuba is concerned (greed/corruption is rampant in cuba, in fact it is THE WAY OF LIFE in cuba, and we can also see plenty of example in other USSR nations as well). I can tell you this, democracy is important because it provides us with the tools to slowly get rid of the worse scum, not all, but the worse. How did we get rid of trump? my point exactly. Cuba does not have democracy...

Which is your path for Cuba, and Latin America. As an American citizen you got the power to be involved in change. Do so. Do so.

Believe me, I am.

Don't get too busy with your work to not take a vacation and take your family with you. I know you got student debt. Find creative ways of paying it down.

Student debt is going down quick, 100k down in less than a year, woot woot. Maybe will have a nice big vacation soon, it was not the debt preventing it, it was the covid, but we will see. Cuba is not being considered as a destination 8) :lol:

Get your economic freedom. And help the ones over here in Mexico, in Guatemala, and everywhere else.

I agree. As far as I am concerned, the US should be doing more business with latin american countries and stop doing silly walls on the other continent and building shit in china. How about you put Apple's iphone factory in guatemala and our flat tvs in mexico and maybe some furniture in brazil. We get the fucking lithium in Chile and send it to china so they can put in iphones and sell back to the US? insane :knife: !
It is not a pretty picture of changing the "Chinese slave" for the "Guatemalan one" but the situation is far more complicated than a monolithic analysis. It is my opinion that increased economic activity and trade amongst our neighbors in this continent would be overall a more beneficial/pragmatic approach than our current arrangements.

The shitholes are filled with beautiful people who only want you wanted for so many years. Help them darling.

Well, of all the shitholes in the world, we got the worse, Alabama 8)
#15167424
late wrote:Learn to read.

I have been mostly talking about the first decade of Cuba under Castro.


That is irrelevant. Ok, you break the system, redistribute the wealth and make it even... Nice first 10 years happiness. But then you get another 60 years of stagnation, poverty, lies, degradation of infrastructures, degradation of education, etc etc etc... What did you accomplish? That is the equivalent of a president issuing 10k checks to everyone in the US (assuming that they had the power offcourse), and everybody is happy the first couple of years until shit hits the fan.
If your solution is trading long-term survival of a nation for some short-term benefit... well that is not a solution at all is it?
#15167425
XogGyux wrote:
That is irrelevant.

redistribute the wealth and make it even... Nice first 10 years happiness.

But then you get another 60 years of stagnation, poverty, lies, degradation of infrastructures, degradation of education, etc etc etc...

If your solution is trading long-term survival of a nation for some short-term benefit... well that is not a solution at all is it?



The Cubans that fled to Miami took everything that wasn't nailed down. What wealth?

Actually, they did pretty good until the Fall of the USSR.

That's what we have been doing to Latin American countries since the 1800s.

Could you do me a favor, wake up from your coma and have a cup of coffee?
#15167427
They did pretty well until the fall of the USSR because the latter was heavily subsidizing them.

In fact, after Kennedy the sanctions were maintained because they were an useful way to have the Soviets bleed money helping Cuba.
#15167430
@XogGyux wrote:

I have, multiple times. I don't think the foreseeable future looks much different than the present. I don't know what it will look in 50 years, but I don't think in 10 years it will be any different at all.


I think it is going to be highly surprising. Do you see how much has changed in the last 20 years? A lot.

Mexico has changed a lot in my lifetime XogGyux.

Women here are getting organized and demanding justice. And they are loud, and insistent and well funded.

They are freezing bank accounts. The corrupt are pissed. And the only mass protests are rich people in SUVs with some exceptions.

Mexico has very serious problems. All nations do XogGyux. But they have to cope with all of the problems. They must.

It is a tough task.

You know when my mother died it was so hard for me. It was after she died that I realized? My God, she did enormous work. Influential work. Human rights work. Educating people work. Advocating for free health care, literacy programs for people and regions of the world with illiteracy, preserving cultures of Native Americans and making life better for a lot of people. They all came out in the funeral. I HAD NO IDEA.

She never bragged or spouted about how she was changing the world. But she was. With caring. She was never cynical. Improvement can happen.

I have learned a lot about human behavior over the years. People will do incredibly great things and will rise to the level of expectation. But it takes the many with means, power and will to stop wanting to control and exploit. Put down the selfish acquisition insistent lack of respect for others....and do a lot for each person. Each society.

I can't change the world in huge numbers but I can change my life and help those in need around me. It might only be one person or two....but if they like what I am doing? They might go and do more and touch more lives. A ripple effect.

That is how most positive human change happens @XogGyux . Un pasito a la vez.

Human defects are present in all human societies. So are its virtues. Think about the virtues. And make your best efforts to bring forth good results.

I wish you every success. If ever you want to discuss Puerto Rico and Cuba and the history of any Caribbean island? Give me a hint. I will start it. I love the Caribbean region and decided to study each island individually. A very interesting and fascinating pattern emerged. ¿Si te interesa me lo preguntas?

I think Cuba will surprise you within your lifetime. Puerto Rico has surprised the hell out of me lately. Never would have believed it.
#15167431
late wrote:The Cubans that fled to Miami took everything that wasn't nailed down. What wealth?

LOL

Like what? Jewelry and art? ROFL The important assets all stayed behind, the luxurious houses, the factories, the farms, livestock, all stayed behind. Who cares if "rich aunti" took with her the silverware and a monet... Please this is ridiculous.
If they did... you wouldnt have generations of old cubans crying that Fidel took their stuff. One of my grandparents died 10 years ago and gave to my grandmother a bucket full of his old tittles and properties for shit he had in cuba, just in case. We kept telling him that his beautiful 3 bedroom apartment was probably converted to a solar and probably had a barbacoa added and chances are 6 families live there... that is offcourse assuming that the property still stands, chances are after 70 years of no repairs it has either fallen or near collapse.

Actually, they did pretty good until the Fall of the USSR.

Well, that is what tends to happen when a far bigger, richer country pumps the crap out of you and subsidizes your way of life. Again, not sustainable.

Could you do me a favor, wake up from your coma and have a cup of coffee?

Because I don't agree with your nonsense I am on a coma? Please.
Also, I don't drink coffee, I don't like the bitter taste.
#15167432
Rancid wrote:I agree. I have a lot of anecdotal experiences growing up in Miami. I grew up around Cubans of lower socioeconomic classes..


There you go virtue signaling again -------- you liberal rascal you :eek:
#15167435
jimjam wrote:There you go virtue signaling again -------- you liberal rascal you :eek:


I think he was a kid growing up in Miami with a grandmother from San Pedro de Macoris from the DR. A baseball legend town.

I happen to think people (after traveling a lot during my lifetime) have the same needs. Human needs. And if they are decent caring people and got together?

Nothing could stop the great accomplishments. Nothing.

I think you are going to be doing much better Jimjam. Soon all will be well again!
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