[Pants-of-dog]

No one? That is kind of what they teach 24/7 in Cuba. What really happened was some sort-of clumsy espionage/mercenary distraction vs what they want you to believe is that the full force of the US came into them and they valiantly put an end to it because they have the mandate and because they are right. It is a whole bunch of nonsense. Similar to the embargo.

Again, no one in the thread is making these claims. I am not defending some weird story you may have heard as a kid.

And since you have not addressed my argument, I will assume that you agree that the USA wanted a puppet regime in Havana so they could continue to exploit Cuba.

That is part of the big lie. Just because the movement was popular early on, does not mean the overall outcome was good.
NAZI Germany was also popular early on... see how it turned out.

Again, you are not addressing my point.

Since you are saying it became oppressive later, you are implicitly agreeing that the Cuban revolution enjoyed popular support while the people who landed at Bay of Pigs did not.

Careful their buddy, you seem to hint (or perhaps not?) at the "well... the populous support it, because they haven't, revolted". Except you could make the same argument for every other dictatorship ever... right until the moment they do revolt and/or it ends by some other means. For instance North Korea... they must have very high quality of life there since nobody is trying to "liberate" themselves from the "evil dictatorship" right? Except it does not work like that. Part of a dictatorship is to control the narrative, control the politics, control the public.

You did not answer the question. According to you, the USA could do so at any time, and Cuba itself and its government cannot do anything to stop it.

And if you are correct about the populace there, the US would be hailed as heroes, and they could regain the8r lost assets on the island.

As we saw, a dozen men could land on that island with almost no resources and (by simply promising the peasants an end to the dictatorship) get enough support to take over the island.

So, why does the USA not do this?

[XogGyux]

Again, no one in the thread is making these claims. I am not defending some weird story you may have heard as a kid.

And since you have not addressed my argument, I will assume that you agree that the USA wanted a puppet regime in Havana so they could continue to exploit Cuba.

Spare me the plausible deniability bullcrap. This is the sort of propaganda that the Cuban government spreads on a daily basis, many of which you yourself have spewed, furthermore check the title of the thread.
All of this is being said in the context of "The WAR on Cuba", the thread is not called "The shady things that the US does [almost] behind the curtain".
Every country that has ever existed would prefer that other countries have "puppet regimen" that favor their interest, it would kind of be silly not to want that. The real question is how far you are willing to do. The Spanish, french, British and Portuguese empire did just that, the US did a watered version of that when it became its turn as the most powerful nation in the world, arguably still does quite a bit of that although not even close to what those older empires used to do. Cuba itself is not a saint in this matter, cuba has interefered in a handful of conflicts over the years, the most notable possibly the Congo conflict but there are a few others. Granted, Cuba's thumb has a minuscule weight on the balance... but don't be acting all self-righteous.

Again, you are not addressing my point.

Since you are saying it became oppressive later, you are implicitly agreeing that the Cuban revolution enjoyed popular support while the people who landed at Bay of Pigs did not.

Dude. I have said in this thread and other that I the possibility that movement/fidel had pure goals early one and that it later became corrupted over the years is valid. I cannot say for certainty, possibly nobody alive can, but I don't dismiss that possibility. What I can tell you is that right now, Cuba's government is cancer. Exploiting its own people, and slowly consuming what little fuel they had from a far more prosperous country. Without a major correction and acknowledgment of their errors, there is no hope for that country.

You did not answer the question. According to you, the USA could do so at any time, and Cuba itself and its government cannot do anything to stop it.

You don't think the US has the capability to level the whole country to a pile of ash and smoke?

And if you are correct about the populace there, the US would be hailed as heroes, and they could regain the8r lost assets on the island.

That only happens if the world would work on the same principles as the mind of a 5-year-old boy works. I see abusive drunk husbands in my ER every day, perhaps you would think that if you stab one of those husbands the wife is going to be happy and eternally grateful, but chances are you would be wrong.

So, why does the USA not do this?

For the same reason, you cannot land a dozen men in North Korea and overthrow the government. Are you suggesting that because we cannot do this, the NK's government is popular a benevolent?
Besides, the US is in the business of making large, expensive, incursions so contractors and big military companies make a shiton of money, there is no money in selling water filters and cooking pans for guerrilla warriors.

[Pants-of-dog]

Spare me the plausible deniability bullcrap. This is the sort of propaganda that the Cuban government spreads on a daily basis, many of which you yourself have spewed, furthermore check the title of the thread.
All of this is being said in the context of "The WAR on Cuba", the thread is not called "The shady things that the US does [almost] behind the curtain".

Now that you have explained why you think this an argument that I need to defend, I would like to simply repeat that I did not make this argument.

Every country that has ever existed would prefer that other countries have "puppet regimen" that favor their interest, it would kind of be silly not to want that. The real question is how far you are willing to do. The Spanish, french, British and Portuguese empire did just that, the US did a watered version of that when it became its turn as the most powerful nation in the world, arguably still does quite a bit of that although not even close to what those older empires used to do. Cuba itself is not a saint in this matter, cuba has interefered in a handful of conflicts over the years, the most notable possibly the Congo conflict but there are a few others. Granted, Cuba's thumb has a minuscule weight on the balance... but don't be acting all self-righteous.

The USA has installed puppet regimes that were just as brutal as the propaganda version of Cuba that the USA portrays. This was done in order for US companies to extract wealth from these countries.

Cuba has never done this, and simply could not do so even if it wanted to. Cuba has never had enough leverage to force their policies onto other countries; even those countries that benefited greatly from Cuban help like, for example, Angola.

Dude. I have said in this thread and other that I the possibility that movement/fidel had pure goals early one and that it later became corrupted over the years is valid. I cannot say for certainty, possibly nobody alive can, but I don't dismiss that possibility. What I can tell you is that right now, Cuba's government is cancer. Exploiting its own people, and slowly consuming what little fuel they had from a far more prosperous country. Without a major correction and acknowledgment of their errors, there is no hope for that country.

Yes, the evil Cuban government.....

You don't think the US has the capability to level the whole country to a pile of ash and smoke?

Of course it does.

That only happens if the world would work on the same principles as the mind of a 5-year-old boy works. I see abusive drunk husbands in my ER every day, perhaps you would think that if you stab one of those husbands the wife is going to be happy and eternally grateful, but chances are you would be wrong.

People stay in abusive relationships for two reasons, mainly: money and kids. Since Cuba and the USA do not have kids, that means money has to be the reason why the Cuban population are willing to stay with the Cuban government despite the possibility of freeing themselves.

Is that what you are arguing?

For the same reason, you cannot land a dozen men in North Korea and overthrow the government. Are you suggesting that because we cannot do this, the NK's government is popular a benevolent?

That would start a land war with China on China’s border.

Invading Cuba would not cause a war with China, and definitely not anywhere near the Chinese border.

So, no, the two situations are not comparable.

Besides, the US is in the business of making large, expensive, incursions so contractors and big military companies make a shiton of money, there is no money in selling water filters and cooking pans for guerrilla warriors.

Then why has the US continued to support right wing guerrillas in Latin America until the present day?

[Tainari88]

@Pants-of-dog wrote:

So, why does the USA not do this?

The USA has a plan for the territories and possessions they have in their sphere. The plan is to extract money and to get as much out of it as they can. Administering the people who have different histories is problematic for them. It is about get the money and let the banks and the corporations make a killing financially--pay off some corrupt asshole leaders who don't care about their own people. Give them a pat on the back for being pro banks and elitists and corporations--and then use the land and the resources. The people can die as guinea pigs or via who cares? It is about materialism and gain and power from afar.

Actually governing and dealing with coping with millions of people who don't speak English and are not part of the that entire ethos in the states is too complicated. The goal is very simple.

Puerto Rican example of what the USA gov't wants to do with these places:

Cuba did not follow the plan. They are waiting for it to open up again and allow free elections and chain stores and open competition. Hopefully they can make it a client state again of theirs. And get everyone to be gung ho for Mexican style capitalism. Where Kelsey can't buy a damn thing with the money she earns because in Mexican capitalism you make low wages and never get ahead. But at least the socialist corruption and the selfish Cuban politicians are gone replaced by wealthy Miami Cubans with the backing of America.

For the average Cuban they become Kelsey 2.0.

[Tainari88]

What is Cuba's future?

I think the USA is a nation that is very untrustworthy on the whole with Latin America. Aggressive and imposing and violent.

But if the Cuban youth can create free trade with Latin America, the rest of the Caribbean and EU and the USA with certain basic goods and deal with banks that are about just trade and a Mondragon style system of security and have the Cuban currency be able to use something stable to trade with? It will be a good start.

But the Cubans got to realize? The USA is not a nation of respect for Latin America. They have not demonstrated anything close to what the UNALIGNED movement in the UN has called for. Mutual respect and mutual equality between nation states.

They just want to control and extract. That is not going to benefit Cuba. Only being able to trade fairly and justly will make things better.

Once they Cuban people get together and decide they might want something different? It is a good thing. Let young Cubans be in the leadership roles. If they want libraries, free internet, free trade, and consumer goods and to be in charge of administering resources? LET THEM HAVE IT.

[jimjam]

After JFK thwarted the Alan Dulles plan to order ashore the two battalions of US Marines waiting offshore from the Bay of Pigs to "rescue" the phony "invasion" of Cuba by 1400 CIA trained mercenaries he uttered his now famous threat to "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds". Some months later JFK dumped Dulles which, I am certain, did not sit well with Dulles. Obviously Cuba, the Bay of Pigs and JFK's murder are intricately entwined during this remarkably important period of history. Cuba was just one factor in the offing of JFK but …… a very important factor.

I find history to be totally fascinating and engrossing. The Devil's Chessboard indeed ……………...

[Tainari88]

After JFK thwarted the Alan Dulles plan to order ashore the two battalions of US Marines waiting offshore from the Bay of Pigs to "rescue" the phony "invasion" of Cuba by 1400 CIA trained mercenaries he uttered his now famous threat to "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds". Some months later JFK dumped Dulles which, I am certain, did not sit well with Dulles. Obviously Cuba, the Bay of Pigs and JFK's murder are intricately entwined during this remarkably important period of history. Cuba was just one factor in the offing of JFK but …… a very important factor.

I find history to be totally fascinating and engrossing. The Devil's Chessboard indeed ……………...

The Kennedy period also had the Peace Corps happening and the Alliance for Progress. Very little real policy making has been done since the early sixties as regards to change the ugly interventions in all the nations of Latin America.

The new generations in the USA need to leave the Cold War behind.

Respect independent nations rights to self determination. The Americas are not the enemy and they need to be respected. Let them trade with each other. And the old guard in Cuban politics needs to LET GO OF POWER. They need to let the young people make decisions. And they need to allow many cooperative units to be established, gat an infusion of cash.

And please keep Monsanto the hell out of Cuba. And all the rest of those damn vultures in Wall Street the hell out of corrupt politics. Because those freaks are foaming at the mouth thinking about redoing the entire Cuban economy for another awful corrupt horror scene that is not the best for the Puerto Rican economy or the Cuban one. I hate the thing about PAWNS on a chessboard. Release the pawns!

Open up shop but mind the store with a lot of care.

[jimjam]

They just want to control and extract.

This sums up the policy of the Dulles brothers(Allen and John Foster) to a T. They were both closet Nazis who protected Nazis and learned from them after WW2 ended. They brought a sanitized Nazism to American foreign policy.

After WW2 the Dulles brothers entrenched themselves into the Eisenhower operation and largely ran the show as Eisenhower morphed into a semi senile dithering old man. Eisenhower's son remarked how his father was controlled by the Dulles juggernaut.

Cuba is currently in need of wise and strong leadership that will respect the Cuban people while, at the same time, make it clear that they will truck no shit.

You Tainari88 are much more optimistic than I who have turned into a grouchy old cynic ( ). I truly hope your kind prevails in this dynamic.

[Julian658]

As of 2019 Cuba allows some entrepreneurial activity and private property. Here is a Cuban that got rich. When I say rich this is relative to Cuba. He bought an Audi luxury car. Unheard for a Cuban, but made possible with just a bit of capitalism.

[Tainari88]

This sums up the policy of the Dulles brothers(Allen and John Foster) to a T. They were both closet Nazis who protected Nazis and learned from them after WW2 ended. They brought a sanitized Nazism to American foreign policy.

After WW2 the Dulles brothers entrenched themselves into the Eisenhower operation and largely ran the show as Eisenhower morphed into a semi senile dithering old man. Eisenhower's son remarked how his father was controlled by the Dulles juggernaut.

Cuba is currently in need of wise and strong leadership that will respect the Cuban people while, at the same time, make it clear that they will truck no shit.

You Tainari88 are much more optimistic than I who have turned into a grouchy old cynic ( ). I truly hope your kind prevails in this dynamic.

I love Cubans in general. The Left, the Right and the Center I find them very warm and human and fiery. They fight the most among themselves.

The Mexican Yucatecans find them arrogant. That is because they are well educated compared to the Central Americans.

There are a lot of Cubans in Puerto Rico. The Puerto Ricans resent some of the elitist ones a lot. But in general? They get along very well. What is important though is that they must respect self determination. All of Latin America struggles with USA imperialism. Most US citizens don't realize how Latin America both admires the USA's accomplishments with its radical and liberal constitution and its legal institutions and so on, that has literally influenced all revolutionary movements in Latin America especially during the 19th century where most of Latin America was able to declare its independence from the Spanish crown Jimjam.

But? the USA's greed of its upper class and wealthy capitalist class has been a very difficult thing to deal with. They bring war, death, unfair economics, military interventions, racist attitudes and NASTINESS in their unjust pressuring of nubile governments emerging from bloody class conflicts in Latin America.

The USA is really not trusted. The Central Americans used to run for the border because they had a liberal refugee asylum policy but? The USA is unstable. And the people are also not stable politically. It is a very divided nation Jimjam.

The PRC and Russia are gonna bust a move in the Americas economically PRC more than anyone else.

The USA with its old carrot and stick diplomacy and AGRESSION is going to be a net loss of soft power and hard power in Latin America. And Latin America is VAST in resources, and in people. We got lots of young people, and a lot of resources. China wants both.

The USA has to start treating the BACKYARD slaves with some respect. Or they will lose the whole thing to the Pacific Rim. For sure.

[jimjam]

you are not addressing my point.

Emotionalism and objectivity mix like oil and water …..

[jimjam]

The USA has to start treating the BACKYARD slaves with some respect. Or they will lose the whole thing to the Pacific Rim. For sure.

Yes, but I am not sure the US is capable of fundamental change …… too much greed and arrogance. In the orb of history America is in the decline.

Off topic for a moment Ms T ……………… tomorrow, after 41 very difficult days, I leave the hospital and go home ….. . Here is a picture of a Haitian nurse who helped me day after day through pain and hell. A wonderful woman who I will never forget, Wislene:

[Tainari88]

Yes, but I am not sure the US is capable of fundamental change …… too much greed and arrogance. In the orb of history America is in the decline.

Off topic for a moment Ms T ……………… tomorrow, after 41 very difficult days, I leave the hospital and go home ….. . Here is a picture of a Haitian nurse who helped me day after day through pain and hell. A wonderful woman who I will never forget, Wislene:

Oh you look good Jimjam. Such a redhaired man. Lol.

Big welcome home kiss.

The USA has to change its shark like tactics in the Caribbean and leave the shrimp alone. Lol.

If the shrimps don't fall asleep and say PRESENTE and band together and keep the sharks of greed at bay? From within and without? We got a chance at improvement and progress.

An old song about US military intervention in Latin American affairs. From Ruben Blades. He ran for office in Panama.

[XogGyux]

Cuba has never done this, and simply could not do so even if it wanted to. Cuba has never had enough leverage to force their policies onto other countries; even those countries that benefited greatly from Cuban help like, for example, Angola.

Just because they are incapable does not mean they don't/didn't want to.

Yes, the evil Cuban government.....

I am glad you arrived to the right conclusion.

Of course it does.

I am glad you understand.

People stay in abusive relationships for two reasons, mainly: money and kids. Since Cuba and the USA do not have kids, that means money has to be the reason why the Cuban population are willing to stay with the Cuban government despite the possibility of freeing themselves.

You are steering into the realm of simplistic/childish understanding of complex matters. People stay in abusive relationships for many reasons and sometimes for no good reason. Money and kids are two of many, but simple old psychology, fear of the unknown, "being used to this way of life", and many other reasons also apply. When you minimize such a complex topic to a couple simplistic "reasons" you end up lossing the big picture.

That would start a land war with China on China’s border.

So the Korean people don't revolt against their despotic leader because they are afraid China is going to sweep in and save him? Sure.
Perhaps China might join in an all-in war, but a few dozen "guerrilla" that inspire the Koreans to free themselves? nah
Besides, all of that is irrelevant to the point. The point is, that just because people don't immediately rebel against their government does not mean that the government is not corrupt/tyrannical. That is the whole point. The larger geopolitical implications are besides the point.

So, no, the two situations are not comparable.

Bullshit. Over and over and over. All I see is excuses left and right. If you wrote a book about excuses it would probably be longer than all the books from The Lord of the Rings.
You know, it is bad enough that other countries such as spain (initially) then the US, and to a degree russia also used Cuba for its business. But what it is unforgivable it is his own people, Fidel, Raul, etc, fucking cubans over and over and over.

[XogGyux]

As of 2019 Cuba allows some entrepreneurial activity and private property. Here is a Cuban that got rich. When I say rich this is relative to Cuba. He bought an Audi luxury car. Unheard for a Cuban, but made possible with just a bit of capitalism.

Well, this is a relatively new development due to the economic reforms of the ~2010's.
The first thing is... those economic reforms are a late development, after 60 years of the same crap, eventually they made some changes, and these changes surprise surprise are moving away from the nonsense that they spread for decades into something resembling the rest of the world. If that is not an acknowledgment of failure I don't know what is. But that is good, credit where credit is due, they improved the system.
I am however skeptical as a whole. For one, this is a minuscule step, this is not going to erase 2-3 generation worth' of the mentality Cubans have adopted over the last few decades, certainly, it will take decades and far more reforms for that to happen.

[jimjam]

Big welcome home kiss.

You're making me nervous .

This time tomorrow I'll be overlooking the canal while smoking a beautiful Cuban cigar .

well done video

[Julian658]

Well, this is a relatively new development due to the economic reforms of the ~2010's.
The first thing is... those economic reforms are a late development, after 60 years of the same crap, eventually they made some changes, and these changes surprise surprise are moving away from the nonsense that they spread for decades into something resembling the rest of the world. If that is not an acknowledgment of failure I don't know what is. But that is good, credit where credit is due, they improved the system.
I am however skeptical as a whole. For one, this is a minuscule step, this is not going to erase 2-3 generation worth' of the mentality Cubans have adopted over the last few decades, certainly, it will take decades and far more reforms for that to happen.

I am older than you and many of the first wave of Cubans leaving the island in the 1960s were my friends and classmates in PR. They climbed The socioeconomic ladder with little difficulty. Compared to other Latin Americans they were entrepreneurial and quite friendly. I must confess the first wave were from the top of Cuban society.

In any event I have noted that now there is a bit more of freedom in Cuba as well as Internet services. Apparently people have to buy cards and go to the public square to connect to WIFI. As a consequence there are a lot of You Tubers. This guy Pedrito comes from a family where everybody is highly educated. He studied engineering and after graduation became an entrepreneur because the pay for an engineer was low.

[XogGyux]

I am older than you and many of the first wave of Cubans leaving the island in the 1960s were my friends and classmates in PR. They climbed The socioeconomic ladder with little difficulty. Compared to other Latin Americans they were entrepreneurial and quite friendly. I must confess the first wave were from the top of Cuban society.

In any event I have noted that now there is a bit more of freedom in Cuba as well as Internet services. Apparently people have to buy cards and go to the public square to connect to WIFI. As a consequence there are a lot of You Tubers. This guy Pedrito comes from a family where everybody is highly educated. He studied engineering and after graduation became an entrepreneur because the pay for an engineer was low.

I have nothing against someone with training/education finding a path that is not necesarily a result of that training/education. Plenty of people do it in all part of the world. There are doctors and lawyers making millions in youtbute right now, thats fine. However, I think it is a massive failure when we are not talking about a half dozen-odd cases and instead we are taking about vast portions of the population. Cuba is literally falling apart. It is sad to see engineers, doctors, architects, chemists, etc doing this kind of job. It is not healthy from the point of view of societal benefit. Having your roads with potholes deep enough that you could break a neck if you fall and buildings that are being held upright by rotten wood and whose inhabitants are hopeful that next cat 5 hurricane miss them because otherwise they might lose their house, perhaps their lives.
But the saddest part of this is not that. The sad part is that some of these arduous "anti-neocolonialism" guys... would lecture others... that they don't stop and think why the engineer is pedaling a makeshift bicycle that was converted into a "bicitaxi" and how a guy past his prime, with an universitary/post-graduate degree has to pedal 2x fat tourists under the scorching sun and these tourists are just gonna go on a forum praising che guevara and fidel castro. So bezos uses "slave humans" on amazon's warehouse but you guys fail to see the even more obvious parallel that is occuring in cuba?



Not much different than a guy pedaling around a "rich tourist".

And no... I am not trying to embarrass you into not going to cuba, into not enjoying your trip, into not paying for a taxi or a tour in one of those "ingenious inventions". No, not at all. Do it, enjoy it, and pay the guy. He is doing it because he needs the money and I would not dare to steer away his much-needed income. But have a little bit of sense before you go around praising the system.

Those cute tiny Chinese lady shoes that look so pretty in a museum, have a very sad story... a story of mutilation of children. Feel free to appreciate the craftsmanship of their making but be careful if you venture into praising the practice of feet bounding, you'll come across as a vile human being.

[Julian658]

I have nothing against someone with training/education finding a path that is not necesarily a result of that training/education. Plenty of people do it in all part of the world. There are doctors and lawyers making millions in youtbute right now, thats fine. However, I think it is a massive failure when we are not talking about a half dozen-odd cases and instead we are taking about vast portions of the population. Cuba is literally falling apart. It is sad to see engineers, doctors, architects, chemists, etc doing this kind of job. It is not healthy from the point of view of societal benefit. Having your roads with potholes deep enough that you could break a neck if you fall and buildings that are being held upright by rotten wood and whose inhabitants are hopeful that next cat 5 hurricane miss them because otherwise they might lose their house, perhaps their lives.
But the saddest part of this is not that. The sad part is that some of these arduous "anti-neocolonialism" guys... would lecture others... that they don't stop and think why the engineer is pedaling a makeshift bicycle that was converted into a "bicitaxi" and how a guy past his prime, with an universitary/post-graduate degree has to pedal 2x fat tourists under the scorching sun and these tourists are just gonna go on a forum praising che guevara and fidel castro. So bezos uses "slave humans" on amazon's warehouse but you guys fail to see the even more obvious parallel that is occuring in cuba?



Not much different than a guy pedaling around a "rich tourist".

And no... I am not trying to embarrass you into not going to cuba, into not enjoying your trip, into not paying for a taxi or a tour in one of those "ingenious inventions". No, not at all. Do it, enjoy it, and pay the guy. He is doing it because he needs the money and I would not dare to steer away his much-needed income. But have a little bit of sense before you go around praising the system.

Those cute tiny Chinese lady shoes that look so pretty in a museum, have a very sad story... a story of mutilation of children. Feel free to appreciate the craftsmanship of their making but be careful if you venture into praising the practice of feet bounding, you'll come across as a vile human being.

Since I grew up in Puerto Rico going to Cuba would not be exotic. I would also be embarrassed to use an engineer as a taxi driver.

I agree with you regarding the calamities of people living in socialists nations. BTW, there are plenty of Cuban socialism lovers among the lefties in PR. They talk all day long about how oppressed they are by the Yankees while they manipulate the medical system to become incapacitated and milk the federal government for dollars, SNAP, and all kinds of benefits. Despite the so-called oppression Puerto Rico has the second best per capita income in Latin America. I suspect it could be higher, but 43% of the people are below the poverty line. Worse than Mississippi at 20%.

[Tainari88]

@XogGyux Latin America is falling apart. Those caravans of Hondurans and Salvadorans and etc. are there because they have serious issues with economics. I know so many Cubans in Merida, Mexico with degrees and they are trying to scrape by like Kelsey. One an engineer his name is Rene. Another Javier has a newborn daughter and a wife in Cuba and his dream is to own his own fleet of vans for tourism in Merida. None of them make enough money in Mexico. It is a capitalist system. But it is underdevelopment and seriously low wages here. No one can get ahead with $2 dollars an hour. If you make $10,000 Mexican pesos a month here you are lucky. And that is about $500 dollars a month USA. It won't get you far.

Capitalism the way it is practiced in Latin America is not making things easy for any professionals XogGyux. The issue has to do with being extraction economies and in service to multinational corporations and banks that live off of many nations GDP and debt servicing. PR is never going to get out of its bad economic position with a debt that cripples it. But that is what the USA and the local corrupt politicians and the PROMESA panel want in PR.

There is no relief at all. The real issue is the trickle down economics in the USA and the neoliberals like Milton Friedman and how they set up the entire nations of the UNALIGNED group to service the banks and the corporations in the G8 and so on dominant economic nations. It is an imbalance of power XogGyux. So capitalism in the Thir World is not a panacea and not a solution.

For me international cooperation and peaceful co-existence between many different nations respecting each other and cooperating in mutual benefit groups is the only solution. Waging cold wars and hot wars and stupid wars on each other is undermining all of anyone's hopes for progress. That way the Mexicans get improved lives, Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Nicaraguans, Hondurans and everyone else out there and they can STAY home and the USA can try to solve having half the population backing a damn conman from Queens. Lol.