AOC:Puerto Rico is a Neo Colony? - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15264119
@Tainari88 has Puerto Rico ever formally asked for admission into the Union?

Congress is not under an obligation to admit Puerto Rico into the US even if it formally requests to. But if it doesn't, I think you know you'd get a revival of the independence movement.
#15264125
wat0n wrote:@Tainari88 has Puerto Rico ever formally asked for admission into the Union?

Congress is not under an obligation to admit Puerto Rico into the US even if it formally requests to. But if it doesn't, I think you know you'd get a revival of the independence movement.


Pedro Pierluisi and Gonzalez are responsible for talking about statehood in the US congress about persuasions for statehood. So far it has not been successful. Again, they got a Republican party that is about excluding people they find suspicious and who are in deep debt. Lol. The statehood Puerto Ricans are not perfect English speakers as a first language, they are not exactly equipped to be considered highly ethical politicians. In fact, Ricky Rossello the son of the ex-governor of Puerto Rico Pedro Rossello for the statehood party was ousted from the governorship for mass corruption and scandals involving horrific 900-page documents full of misogyny, anti-gay content, comments against Ricky Martin, condoning shooting the mayor of San Juan in the head, etc, etc. he also made fun of the dead bodies of the Hurricane Maria victims and was sitting on millions of dollars of relief funds to distribute it to his fiscal buddies.

Puerto Ricans hit the street in mass protests that were non stop for weeks. They ousted him. Wanda Vazquez took over.

No one trusts the government run by the statehood party. But they continue to get votes because Puerto Rican voters live in fear. Fear of losing their SS checks, their pensions and disability checks, their jobs, their little tiny possibilities. The whole point of not having an independent nation and going into the colonial relationship with the USA government was that Puerto Rico would be lifted out of poverty. Would be able to lift the standard of living, have an educated populace, have local control that would over time make the possibility of independence possible. What actually happened was that the extraction economy was dysfunctional over time because it served the interests of people who were not Puerto Ricans at all and it served the interests of people who would keep the profits but not reinvest them in the island.

All of the schemes failed. To bring stability or prosperity that is lasting and secure. Instead what happened is many Puerto Ricans left Puerto Rico and had to establish themselves in New York City or Chicago or Boston or Miami or Orlando or other environs in the states. Not as wealthy powerful and successful fellow US citizens but as people without real roots or resources to hold on to. The Puerto Rican diaspora is not a story of success.

Now what did work? Was the programs that were based on pooling the resources and investing them in the University of Puerto Rico system. Where they churned out 1,500 engineers a year, doctors, lawyers, educators, scientists, that filled NASA with Puerto Rican talent.

Is that something people discuss? No. What works? Investing in the island and its people. Making them a priority. But to think the USA cares about us? They don't. What are they waiting for? Violence? Burning buildings? Another attack on Congress like they did in the 1950s by a bunch of angry statehooders that finally get a NO and can't accept it? Fuck?

What do they want.

Albizu Campos was a fiery, brilliant Harvard lawyer and the leader of the Nationalist Party for Puerto Rico. He stated that the Yankees don't listen to anything really. That you got to open up their ears with bullets. That they listen to.

I think the US congress needs to wake up and smell what is going on in the halls of congress. Angry right wing people believing lies and disinformation. Who think they are losing control of their own republic to liberals. Who do not really know the difference between a Puerto Rican and an undocumented alien from Mexico or some such racist shit talk....

@late doesn't know what a Boricua is because hell....the English speaking US mainland public doesn't know shit about a place that speaks Spanish all day long. :lol:

Cuban American doctors in Florida like @XogGyux that think that the USA is going to solve the problems of democracy with what? Gringo honesty? Lol. They won't. You are dealing with a long long history of violence, denial of rights and the eroding of the Left that made the USA balanced enough to include new groups of new Americans into the fabric of production and taxpaying. It is all coming apart. Why? Too many lies and not enough real work on the problems....faced by people believing in MYTHS. Instead of examining the evidence and the results of bad policies for decades and generations.

I happen to think the Republican party of Trump is on its way out of power. But if they are allowed to take advantage of a lull in pressure? The authoritarians have a real shot at seizing power for a last hoorah. Will we survive the lack of true solutions though? No we won't. Can't afford another 30 years of inaction on all this rotting shit.
#15264134
@wat0n who are these statehood asshole politicians? From Puerto Rico? A bunch of corrupt people taking kickbacks from Venezuelan bankers and corrupt people with zero ethics. They are going to push in the statehood agenda convincing the racist pig politicians that Puerto Ricans got real statehood leadership. It is ridiculous. The ones who never get arrested with kickback corrupt payoff shit scandals are the independentistas a cleaner group of politicians on the island don't exist. But you can't have those people in power.....NO.

They refuse to kiss Yankee Republican ass..... :lol: :lol:

Wandita la pendeja...



Ricky Rossello resigning....





The pro-statehood people. They are trustworthy assholes I would say eh? They are not Wat0n.

Meanwhile the independentistas grow in number and do not have any scandals regarding corruption. They run around providing sustainable energy programs and real progress. Yet, the lack of solution is about not having faith in themselves.



What are the USA Republican racists waiting for? They are going to get these Boricuas ANGRY as hell.

I do not think they want to see what might happen with that problem.


Lourdes is there explaining the independence party in Puerto Rico. Colonialism. It is not over folks.



Does she have corruption scandals the senator Santiago? No. But hell....the ones moving the agenda along are who? Those pieces of crap politicians in the statehood party. I don't think so.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 07 Feb 2023 01:03, edited 1 time in total.
#15264137
Tainari88 wrote:Xog, the truth is that the USA has an internal problem. They can't provide for their own population living in their own fifty states because the income inequality is making it increasingly difficult.

Well, that is not true. The US can and indeed does provide for its population. My personal view is that it does not provide enough and what it provides it does so in the most absurdly difficult (and expensive) possible way.
It is hugely inefficient, for instance, you can go to any ER in the country and you will get care, you might even be flown on a helicopter to another hospital if needed even if you are not insured... even if you are an illegal immigrant. You will be taken care of. I have patients under my care currently that came to the hospital with a stroke, they were uninsured and they have been living in the hospital for months because there is no family to take them home, there is no insurance to pay for a nursing home, etc. It is not that we don't take care of our people... we do, we are just doing it in the most retarded (and often expensive) way possible. It would have been cheaper to literally rent this guy into a local Marriot hotel than to keep him in the hospital, but I digress. Even the homeless situation is far more complex than "well they don't get paid enough and/or house is expensive". There is a social aspect to it that is divorced from the purely financial side of the argument. I get exposed to homeless people constantly. In more than one ocation I have gone with our social workers/case managers to try to get them a safe environment, we move water and earth and finally get a nursing home or assisted living facility to accept the patient, and then at the last minute they refuse to go instead wanting to be discharged to the street. I was naive once, thinking that perhaps if we have 5000 homeless in a city, perhaps if we could raise 10 buildings with capacity to house 500 people each on tiny apartments, homelessness could be solved in that city... Now I realize it goes beyond just a house, or just money. But then, again, thats another story.

I think the USA is so lacking in real justice that if pressed hard financially they will do what Spain did in 1898. Sell off Puerto Rico to some other superpower to get some quick money and RUN from the entire mess. If they do? The dumbass statehooders will start on the same bullshit, of well, the new OWNERS of the island are not so bad. Let us kiss their ass and see if we survive politically.

That doesn't make any sense. Puerto rico is not really an asset, at least not one financially. Most of the exports from PR comes from making drugs and making medical equipment, both of which can just as easily be made in any other country. In fact, there is reason to believe that in case of a PR independence, the US might want to keep the productions of drugs within the US (for strategic reasons, nothing to do with punishment and/or to spite puertorico, there is soemthing to be said about producing your own food, energy, drugs and anything that is critical within your borders) and PR simply loses all its $$ making capacity. Furthermore, the US does not own PR's drug manufacturing. Washington does not own Lily, Congress does not own medtronic and biden does not own johnson and johnson. These entities remain civil entities and even puerto rico becomes independent or "sold off" to someone else, these companies are independent entities. You would have to nationalize them, of course they would instantly lose a shiton of value once you nationalize them not to mention it will come with a sanction-hammer from the US that will forever doom puertorico into obscurity.
The country only has some marignal value as a geographic asset because it is close to the US. Basically, puertorico is an unsinkable aircraft carrier. Not unlike taiwan or the phillipines or some other pacific island. It only has strategic value to those super powers that think they could use it for aggressive operations (or those that want to prevent hostile nations to allow the island to be used by an adversary). So the US wouldn't want PR to fall to China's influence anymore than china would like taiwan to fall into US's influence. If you really want the best for puerto-rico, the last thing you will want is for PR to become the apple of discord between the US and some other adversary. Again, something Cuba tried earlier and paid handsomly for it.

It is usually about blood, wars, austerity, hardship, problems and blockades by greedy elites wanting to put on the pressure. But once you get over the hump?

Realize what you are saying. This "hump" that you are talking about comes with wars, blood, hardship... the least you could do if you are prepared to go over the hump is to ensure that life is going to be much better after it. I am not convinced this is going to be the case, in fact I am fairly certain that the opposite is true. PR does not have anything they can sell to sustain the country. You import far more food than you export, you import all your fuel. You don't have minerals or anything you can extract to sell. Your value is in your manufacturing and service. These are sectors of the economy that get threatened by civil unrest, by strikes, or if workers decide to leave the country if they don't like the new system. The moment that those drug and medical equipment devices start seeing their bottom line affected by civil unrest, or by worker strikes, or by demand for higher salaries or by thread of nationalization, they will flee the country and all of the sudden PR is naked in the middle of the caribbean.
Remember, these companies are not puertorican. Puertorico independence would not automatically bring the $$ to puerto ricans. Toyota has factories in the US... the money that you pay for a toyota in the US, the profit, goes to Japan to japanese owners. So you cannot stop at independence if you want the profits... you have to go all the way for nationalization as well... and we all know how that is going to end up.

You are not mature in thinking.

This is an ad hominem, I'll ignore it.

late wrote:Still not relevant.

To use your NY example, people are getting shoved out of NYC due to the cost of living. This is made a lot worse by the high levels of income inequality there.

Over a hundred years ago, TR busted up monopolies, and did other things to lessen income inequality, although a lot had to wait for the Great Depression and FDR. I suspect this is a perennial, with Congress paying close attention to money, helping corruption spread.

I know it is not relevant to the topic, I even mentioned it. Just didn't want to let something unanswered, seemed rude at the time.
The NY issue is less to do with income inequality and more to do with expensive as shit rent/property. That is what happens when a lot of people want to live in the same place, nobody wants to live in fucking Arkansas, then a property in Arkansas is dirt cheap. You can buy a mansion w/ land measured in acres in Arkansas for what a tiny studio in manhattan goes for. That has nothing to do with income inequality, my income is pretty good, I cannot afford an apartment in manhattan... do you think I need a raise? :lol: That is yet another unrelated issue.
Last edited by XogGyux on 07 Feb 2023 01:31, edited 1 time in total.
#15264138
wat0n wrote:@Tainari88 if people are tired of the statehood politicians, then I think pressing the issue would make even more sense.

Have the independence politicians been elected in PR in the last few years?


Wat0n, it is again not about democracy. It is about what the US congress allows to happen.

The logical thing would be for the statehood politicians to press the issue. The problem is that PR is no longer about the statehooders, the PPD or the independentistas. Puerto Rico is ruled now economically and effectively by an unelected board called PROMESA. Puerto Rican voters can't vote for them. They are appointed by Washington DC.

it is back to unelected appointees forcing austerity measures.

Lourdes Santiago is a PIP Senator. So was Ruben Berríos Martínez and Juan Dalmau, Fernando Martin, and the list goes on. The PIP party has gotten positions in the senate and the legislature. Why? They come up with great programs to get things done.

Let us look at Casa Pueblo eh?



Who are they Wat0n? Puerto Rican pro independence advocates. They don't think about independence with lip service only. They are coping with environmental issues and sustainable development.

Now Puerto Rico can move forward out of dependency. But it won't happen with the same colonization policies of the past Wat0n.

Change has to happen.
#15264139
Tainari88 wrote:Wat0n, it is again not about democracy. It is about what the US congress allows to happen.

The logical thing would be for the statehood politicians to press the issue. The problem is that PR is no longer about the statehooders, the PPD or the independentistas. Puerto Rico is ruled now economically and effectively by an unelected board called PROMESA. Puerto Rican voters can't vote for them. They are appointed by Washington DC.

it is back to unelected appointees forcing austerity measures.

Lourdes Santiago is a PIP Senator. So was Ruben Berríos Martínez and Juan Dalmau, Fernando Martin, and the list goes on. The PIP party has gotten positions in the senate and the legislature. Why? They come up with great programs to get things done.

Let us look at Casa Pueblo eh?



Who are they Wat0n? Puerto Rican pro independence advocates. They don't think about independence with lip service only. They are coping with environmental issues and sustainable development.

Now Puerto Rico can move forward out of dependency. But it won't happen with the same colonization policies of the past Wat0n.

Change has to happen.


But if the US says no, then independence politicians can 1) get elected, 2) try another independence referendum since statehood isn't an option anymore, 3) if approved, put the US in a difficult position since it won't look good to send the military in this case and a good chunk of the American population would vehemently oppose that - meaning independence would be basically unstoppable
#15264141
wat0n wrote:But if the US says no, then independence politicians can 1) get elected, 2) try another independence referendum since statehood isn't an option anymore, 3) if approved, put the US in a difficult position since it won't look good to send the military in this case and a good chunk of the American population would vehemently oppose that - meaning independence would be basically unstoppable


I don't think that's accurate. PRs are Americans, if half want to stay and half want to leave, it may make perfect sense for the US to send troops to protect the ones that want to remain. Even if it is a split 60/40, in the confusion (and those that are PR but live outside of PR) it might still make sense to do so.
Didn't we fight a civil war? you could make the argument this is similar to that. I agree, perhaps the optics might be ugly, but I don't think the scenario in which the US intervenes is totally ruled out. There is a reasonable argument to be made for the intervention, and sometimes just having a reasonable argument is all that take, it does not need to be a good argument, just a reasonable enough one. You can retouch it in the media and then pass it through the Bullshit machine and make it prettier.
And again. It is not as if the US is resourceless against punishing PR back. PR and the US are more interconnected than Britain and EU. PR is more dependent on the US than Britain was on the EU... and Britain is a far more powerful country than PR... and even them are having major issues with their decision. Anyone that thinks a PR independence is going to be a smooth transition into a fairer, better system is either high as a kite or naive.
#15264144
Tainari88 wrote:You see my style @Rich it is not English. It never will be. People have a right to be who they are. Not be taken over by some elitists with bad intentions to live off of the profits for all time.

I'm aware that Puerto Ricans are different. Puerto Ricans would never have supported gay marriage, they had it imposed on them by Washington Liberals, even if those Liberals purported to be conservatives. Is it fair that Puerto Rico had gay marriage imposed on it? Maybe not, although some might argue that the rights of gay people were more important, than the right of Puerto Ricans to impose their bigotry. Puerto Ricans tend to have different attitudes on other issues, for example they're much more likely to say a woman should obey her husband. And I doubt most Puerto Ricans have much time for Joe Biden's trans agenda.
#15264145
XogGyux wrote:I don't think that's accurate. PRs are Americans, if half want to stay and half want to leave, it may make perfect sense for the US to send troops to protect the ones that want to remain. Even if it is a split 60/40, in the confusion (and those that are PR but live outside of PR) it might still make sense to do so.
Didn't we fight a civil war? you could make the argument this is similar to that. I agree, perhaps the optics might be ugly, but I don't think the scenario in which the US intervenes is totally ruled out. There is a reasonable argument to be made for the intervention, and sometimes just having a reasonable argument is all that take, it does not need to be a good argument, just a reasonable enough one. You can retouch it in the media and then pass it through the Bullshit machine and make it prettier.
And again. It is not as if the US is resourceless against punishing PR back. PR and the US are more interconnected than Britain and EU. PR is more dependent on the US than Britain was on the EU... and Britain is a far more powerful country than PR... and even them are having major issues with their decision. Anyone that thinks a PR independence is going to be a smooth transition into a fairer, better system is either high as a kite or naive.


It's a risk, but I think you underestimate how divisive such an attempt would be. I would expect accusations of racism to surface, and unlike the Civil War - where it was the Confederates who attacked the US government first - this would be a largely peaceful and democratic action, leading to even more divisions within the US. Also, since Puerto Rico isn't a state, its status is more like that of the Philippines a century ago, and that war was divisive even though concepts of manifest destiny were far more popular back then - and yet the Philippines is not an US territory today.

As you said, Puerto Ricans are US citizens and I am doubtful they'd want the military to bomb the island where their relatives live.

I do agree, though, it would not be smooth. The economic costs would be prohibitive - but, it is also true Puerto Ricans don't want the current status quo. And it's not clear the rejection of statehood would do anything but push them to think they'll never be equal Americans, and that eventually leads to a push for independence. For many, this far, far outweighs any economic costs.

Statehood may be the most logical option for both the US and PR but it requires Congress to accept the admission request, and that isn't a given.
#15264147
wat0n wrote:It's a risk, but I think you underestimate how divisive such an attempt would be. I would expect accusations of racism to surface,

Divisive, that is the whole point.
The accusations of racism can surface either way. If you don't help the puerto ricans that want to remain part of the US, the accusations will go something like this "The US is not defending Puertoricans that want to remain part of the US, they are american citizens that are being treated as second class citizen because they are brown or don't speak the same language, the US only cares about white americans and thus will not help those americans that are also hispanics". The reality is you can make the argument for both scenarios and you can throw racist undertones for both scenarios just as easily.
Intervening, like you said, is not going to be seen in a favorable light. But not intervening could just as easily be painted with the same colors. Anything short of an overwhelming bid for independence (and I mean 90%+) can lead to a situation in which the US is left in a damn if you do, damn if you don't regard intervention. I don't necessarily think the US cares much about the actual territory, but not intervening might not necessarily be an option at all.


As you said, Puerto Ricans are US citizens and I am doubtful they'd want the military to bomb the island where their relatives live.

I also doubt it would come as a full military intervention and tanks and bombs. But I wouldn't rule out military intervention altogether. If it is possible, and I think it is, it has to be part of the equation, if you ignore it and it happens it would be disastrous.

The economic costs would be prohibitive - but, it is also true Puerto Ricans don't want the current status quo.

Well, I am of the thought that if people in an area does not want to be part of the country and want to be independent there should be a way to achieve that. However, life is not simple. What happens if people living near the oil fields and rich coastal areas want to leave their country with all their riches? Is that fair for the rest of the country? That they just leave with their resources because they just happened to be slightly more lucky? It is a complex situation either way. For me, it would be a colossal mistake to just double down on independence without having a plan for what comes next. Everyone thinks they will do better.... You know, politicians always promise grand plans, and they always under-deliver.
It appears @Tainari88 feels corruption in PR will dissapear if it goes independent... but history from just about every other nation in the Americas (and the world) suggests otherwise. Politicians become corrupt with time, power corrupts. A favor here, a favor there and in a few years you are doing insider trading and taking bribes and sending your children to get lucrative jobs in Ukranian companies. The idea that this is just going to dissapear is naive at best.

Statehood may be the most logical option for both the US and PR but it requires Congress to accept the admission request, and that isn't a given.

I think this is far more likely than a clean and successful independence bid. I cannot imagine how they can reach an amicable independence, and any other type of independence I am certain that PR will go to the trashbin faster than a blink of an eye.
Tell me, do you think an independence bid that includes any sort of nationalization (or worse, violence) will end up well for Puerto Rico?
Last edited by XogGyux on 07 Feb 2023 02:44, edited 1 time in total.
#15264148
XogGyux wrote:Divisive, that is the whole point.
The accusations of racism can surface either way. If you don't help the puerto ricans that want to remain part of the US, the accusations will go something like this "The US is not defending Puertoricans that want to remain part of the US, they are american citizens that are being treated as second class citizen because they are brown or don't speak the same language, the US only cares about white americans and thus will not help those americans that are also hispanics". The reality is you can make the argument for both scenarios and you can throw racist undertones for both scenarios just as easily.
Intervening, like you said, is not going to be seen in a favorable light. But not intervening could just as easily be painted with the same colors. Anything short of an overwhelming bid for independence (and I mean 90%+) can lead to a situation in which the US is left in a damn if you do, damn if you don't regard intervention. I don't necessarily think the US cares much about the actual territory, but not intervening might not necessarily be an option at all.


It's hard to know. But that scenario alone is pretty nightmarish for the US.

XogGyux wrote:I also doubt it would come as a full military intervention and tanks and bombs. But I wouldn't rule out military intervention altogether. If it is possible, and I think it is, it has to be part of the equation, if you ignore it and it happens it would be disastrous.


And it would be disastrous for both sides. So it's basically a game of chicken, and who has more to lose here?

XogGyux wrote:Well, I am of the thought that if people in an area does not want to be part of the country and want to be independent there should be a way to achieve that. However, life is not simple. What happens if people living near the oil fields and rich coastal areas want to live their country with all their riches? Is that fair for the rest of the country? That they just leave with their resources because they just happened to be slightly more lucky? It is a complex situation either way. For me, it would be a colossal mistake to just double down on independence without having a plan for what comes next. Everyone thinks they will do better.... You know, politicians always promise grand plans, and they always under-deliver.
It appears @Tainari88 feels corruption in PR will dissapear if it goes independent... but history from just about every other nation in the Americas (and the world) suggests otherwise. Politicians become corrupt with time, power corrupts. A favor here, a favor there and in a few years you are doing insider trading and taking bribes and sending your children to get lucrative jobs in Ukranian companies. The idea that this is just going to dissapear is naive at best.


Indeed, and gosh politicians love to make promises. But, if the US denied admission to PR after it made the request, would you blame Boricuas if they began to demand independence? I wouldn't, and I'm very much pro American.

If that happens then I think people here should just act like grown ups and accept decisions have consequences.

XogGyux wrote:I think this is far more likely than a clean and successful independence bid. I cannot imagine how they can reach an amicable independence, and any other type of independence I am certain that PR will go to the trashbin faster than a blink of an eye.
Tell me, do you think an independence bid that includes any sort of nationalization (or worse, violence) will end up well for Puerto Rico?


No, even a peaceful one won't. That's why I would vote for statehood if in their shoes. But a rejection of statehood? That would definitely pave the way for an independent Puerto Rico. If anything, I think those American politicians in both parties must be terrified of the prospect of being forced to deal with an official request for admission into the Union. The mere discussion would be controversial, more than most of the controversial stuff discussed in this country since Trump was elected.
#15264151
Rich wrote:I'm aware that Puerto Ricans are different. Puerto Ricans would never have supported gay marriage, they had it imposed on them by Washington Liberals, even if those Liberals purported to be conservatives. Is it fair that Puerto Rico had gay marriage imposed on it? Maybe not, although some might argue that the rights of gay people were more important, than the right of Puerto Ricans to impose their bigotry. Puerto Ricans tend to have different attitudes on other issues, for example they're much more likely to say a woman should obey her husband. And I doubt most Puerto Ricans have much time for Joe Biden's trans agenda.


Rich I am sorry to tell you that you got a lot of stereotypes about what Puerto Rican culture is about. It is not about what you think it is. Have you met any Puerto Ricans in your real life?

Have you gone to the island and spoke to the people there?

You got to understand the complexity of human beings Rich.

Puerto Rico is Puerto Rico. It is not Cuba or Venezuela or Mexico or Uruguay or Costa Rica. Part of studying cultures from around the world is to study a history that is unique.

Colonialism as a policy from an Empire is a failure in history. It has been a failure in England. If that is too hard for you to process? Let me know. What part of failed policies do you understand? England did not keep its colonies. Why? Just answer that question for me Rich? If it is a brilliant thing that works for the colonized why not stay in that system and why does the UK have a bunch of ex-colonies right now? Ex is the keyword.

Within all cultures there are layers you don't really see fully.

I am talking about colonialism and neo colony here Rich.

Puerto Rico is supposed to be grateful for what? For what the USA has given us? By what? Not giving us rights that they claim are the rights that all US citizens should have....and they don't do it because they are lovers of democracy...yeah, I believe it.

Lol.

Lies are lies Rich. You are too intelligent not to realize that.
#15264152
@wat0n wrote:

No, even a peaceful one won't. That's why I would vote for statehood if in their shoes. But a rejection of statehood? That would definitely pave the way for an independent Puerto Rico. If anything, I think those American politicians in both parties must be terrified of the prospect of being forced to deal with an official request for admission into the Union. The mere discussion would be controversial, more than most of the controversial stuff discussed in this country since Trump was elected.


Well, you know my position. I think independence is the only real solution. So far all the unincorporated territories of the USA have not become states. They have become independent nations or stayed in limbo undefined colonial status. But never have they become states.

What is interesting is that congress avoids committing to solving the problem. For how long is that going to continue indefinitely? I would say as long as the USA and Puerto Rico tolerate the bullshit.

If you look back in history there comes a time of reckoning for these bad relationships of power imbalances between Empires and Colonies...for India and England or the UK? The flashpoint was reached after WWII.

The escape valve of pressure is leaving for the states. And the only ones remaining will be the very wealthy with the multimillion dollar homes in gated communities and cryptocurrencies and Act 20 and 22 tax dodgers, and some greedy foolish people thinking that they don't have to deal with Puerto Ricans....and then the Ricans getting plane tickets and going to find work in some state....hoping that things improve over time on the island and they can go back someday.

Others will be lost in the shuffle and forget who they are....in the entire flight from the lack of rights.

In the end? I will never agree with selling your identity, history and culture out to please some ambition of being an American average pendejo citizen. I never will believe that is the way one deals with invasions and threats from disrespectful people with zero sense of equality.

You never gain anything with being a bootlicker in life. Not in a million years.
#15264153
wat0n wrote:It's hard to know. But that scenario alone is pretty nightmarish for the US.

Sure, but the US would survive any sort of bad rep, and the only thing the US has to fear is bad rep, it is not as if PR can actually do anything else.
But remember, either scenario comes with bad rep. It is not as if the US abandoning million + Americans in the island is going to be any less of a bad rep. Imagine a scenario in which out of the 3m PR, about 1.8M wants independence and 1.2 don't want independence, they are perfectly happy with their lives they have.... You know, they are American citizens, and now there is a bunch of people that are threatening their safety... or at least that is sort of the way that it will be sold to the media, wether it is actually true or an exaggeration it does not matter. It is not as if the US has many good choices. To that, add some russian/china disinformation campain and the usual red/blue politic crap and all of the sudden you are finding yourself in a world that you don't know where is up or down. As a Puerto Rican, I would be afraid of any move for independence that does not have a super majority or greater (at least 75% but likely 90%) approval, anything less than that and between disinformation and selection bias/news manipulation and you may force the hand for an american intervention, regardless of wether the US truly gives a crap or not about the whole situation. I honestly don't think the federal goverment, congress, could give a crap about PR, and honestly just letting them go might be a huge relief for those that don't want to deal with the issue. But they might get forced if it is not a clean, amicable divorce, and that seems unlikely.

And it would be disastrous for both sides. So it's basically a game of chicken, and who has more to lose here?

Nah, it is very asymmetrical, it is disastrous for PR, it is a bad press day for the US.

But, if the US denied admission to PR after it made the request, would you blame Boricuas if they began to demand independence? I wouldn't, and I'm very much pro American.

No, I don't really care if they want out. I am just very skeptical about the whole situation.
@Tainari88 Did not answer my question either. You tell me, which Caribbean independent island-countries do you think are doing better than PR today? I'll give you another, of the countries that have acquired their independence in the last 50 years, how many of them do you think are doing significantly better, and/or would you trade place with PR?
I get this all the time. In my job, every time there is an abnormal lab, or a new symptom or something else, we get a call. Patients want us to do something, nurses want us to do something, families want us to do something, and other physicians might want us to do something. It turns out many times, doing nothing, is the right thing to do. Granted, we don't always have the benefit of knowing WHEN doing nothing is the right thing to do. It is not for me to decide. I like to have the discussion, and frankly, there is always a lot of anti-US nonsense being spewed when topics like this get discussed and I am not liking that, because I have said over and over, despite its many, many defects, the US is by far an upgrade compared to the prior alternatives and the other current would-be world rulers so I am not necessarily enjoying this blanket anti-US hate.
If that happens then I think people here should just act like grown ups and accept decisions have consequences.

Sure. Because politicians and world leaders have an excellent track record for behaving like grown-ups. How much pot did you smoke today? It is my duty to recommend you cut down on your hallucinogenics :lol: .

No, even a peaceful one won't.

And that is what I am afraid of. It happened to my country, I honestly won't enjoy if PR fucks this shit again, especially with the track record that already exists. This populist shit never ends well.

That's why I would vote for statehood if in their shoes.

So would I.

But a rejection of statehood? That would definitely pave the way for an independent Puerto Rico.

I am not so sure about that. I have a strong suspicion that even in the absolute best case scenario, PR independence is not going to substantially improve the quality of life of Puerto Ricans in the islands. And although I don't think it is a guaranteed outcome, I think there are higher odds that they end up in a bigger hole than they are now. It can ALWAYS get worse. What are the realistic odds that it will get better? Let's ignore the reality for one second, just the PERCEPTION could be enough for capital to flight away from PR or to have mass exodus of Puerto Ricans out of the island if they feel an independence is around the corner. Have you heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Just having 10% of workers flee the country, or investors cash out their capital can trigger a chain reaction that destroys confidence and perpetuates a vicious cycle.
I am honestly not able to see a reasonable and likely scenario in which at the end of the journey they are better off. I have not heard any solid plan, just platitudes of how bad it is now and how great it is going to get. Fidel also promised greatness and equality, and fairness.... and it destroyed a country, it consumed its people and its culture. Do you think companies exiting PR is unlikely? Add some custom paperwork and all of the sudden they might re-think if it is worth staying. There are businesses struggling in the UK right now due to problems with customs since bretxit. You think PR will manage to make a cleaner exit? :lol: Im skeptical.

If anything, I think those American politicians in both parties must be terrified of the prospect of being forced to deal with an official request for admission into the Union. The mere discussion would be controversial, more than most of the controversial stuff discussed in this country since Trump was elected.

Well, they are more obsessed about what will get them re-elected than what it is actually right to do. Fuck, these people need term limits ASAP.
#15264154
@XogGyux wrote:

I am not so sure about that. I have a strong suspicion that even in the absolute best case scenario, PR independence is not going to substantially improve the quality of life of Puerto Ricans in the islands. And although I don't think it is a guaranteed outcome, I think there are higher odds that they end up in a bigger hole than they are now. It can ALWAYS get worse. What are the realistic odds that it will get better? Let's ignore the reality for one second, just the PERCEPTION could be enough for capital to flight away from PR or to have mass exodus of Puerto Ricans out of the island if they feel an independence is around the corner. Have you heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Just having 10% of workers flee the country, or investors cash out their capital can trigger a chain reaction that destroys confidence and perpetuates a vicious cycle.
I am honestly not able to see a reasonable and likely scenario in which at the end of the journey they are better off. I have not heard any solid plan, just platitudes of how bad it is now and how great it is going to get. Fidel also promised greatness and equality, and fairness.... and it destroyed a country, it consumed its people and its culture. Do you think companies exiting PR is unlikely? Add some custom paperwork and all of the sudden they might re-think if it is worth staying. There are businesses struggling in the UK right now due to problems with customs since bretxit. You think PR will manage to make a cleaner exit? :lol: Im skeptical.


Well XogGyux, I think you and I have very different concepts about what independence looks like for most nations. If you study the history of the American Revolutionary period of US history? it looked bleak. The King's men there burning down the White House, and a bunch of debt, and big ass problems for decades including schemes and plots to overthrow the new government in place....independence is not something easy to achieve. Ever.

Now, being a person who respects might is right and money is best....is for people with low consciousness and bad values.

And I do believe in bad karma. You create bad karma by being unfair with people? You get bad consequences.

I say you keep the Trump supporters and the ones who love that asshole. Let them go and live with you in Florida. I don't want to hang around with those people. But if you think Puerto Ricans are supposed to accept that kind of abuse from DC? The best thing in the world is for you to be ruled by those Fascist fucks. I won't be.

Fight for your rights....I will fight for mine eh?

Again, the whole thing is about trade offs. And sacrificing. That is how all the nations got their independence.

And if you are a doctor you have to tell your patients the truth. There is no easy road to health. Exercise, diet, take your medications, practice good hygiene, good mental health practices, and be aware that you are fully responsible for your health choices in the world. Don't leave the decisions that affect your health up to someone else to solve them for you. Control your health, your universe and be responsible for your own future there.

Funny that you can understand that in health sciences but not in politics XogGyux.

In terms of GDP Puerto Rico is not the best per capita income island in the Caribbean dude.

Here they are:

https://best-citizenships.com/2019/05/2 ... countries/


https://www.globalcitizensolutions.com/ ... ost-money/

why is criticizing the USA in its hypocrisy with its inability to accept it is not democratic such a problem for you XogGyux?

Got to be a realist guy.....they are not into democracy. ;)
#15264155
XogGyux wrote:I don't think that's accurate. PRs are Americans, if half want to stay and half want to leave, it may make perfect sense for the US to send troops to protect the ones that want to remain. Even if it is a split 60/40, in the confusion (and those that are PR but live outside of PR) it might still make sense to do so.
Didn't we fight a civil war? you could make the argument this is similar to that. I agree, perhaps the optics might be ugly, but I don't think the scenario in which the US intervenes is totally ruled out. There is a reasonable argument to be made for the intervention, and sometimes just having a reasonable argument is all that take, it does not need to be a good argument, just a reasonable enough one. You can retouch it in the media and then pass it through the Bullshit machine and make it prettier.
And again. It is not as if the US is resourceless against punishing PR back. PR and the US are more interconnected than Britain and EU. PR is more dependent on the US than Britain was on the EU... and Britain is a far more powerful country than PR... and even them are having major issues with their decision. Anyone that thinks a PR independence is going to be a smooth transition into a fairer, better system is either high as a kite or naive.


What Puerto Rico needs is a lot of young people solving serious problems not only for Puerto Rico but for everyone else out there suffering the coming issues of climate change and storms and extreme weather events brought on by people who refuse to accept that the climate is changing.

Who are these young people?

The ones who have to solve problems that the polluters left behind for them to solve. Like Arianna.

#15264189
@XogGyux wrote:

XogGyux wrote:
I don't think that's accurate. PRs are Americans, if half want to stay and half want to leave, it may make perfect sense for the US to send troops to protect the ones that want to remain. Even if it is a split 60/40, in the confusion (and those that are PR but live outside of PR) it might still make sense to do so.


XogGyux, the alternatives for the transition from PR to state or sovereign nation and how it would go has been explored ad naseum. By many political parties on the island, and by professional organizations in the UN who have had to deal with decolonization plans of other nations for decades and even generations.

Puerto Ricans are not really Americans like you think. If they were? The phrase of alien races, and a Puerto Rican nationality would not exist. It exists. There were Puerto Ricans who went through the international court system and argued in the international law system for Puerto Rican nationality. They wanted a Puerto Rican passport and argued for one. In the end? They got the Puerto Rican passport. Why? Because the argument was that Puerto Rico when it was invaded was never consulted in the Treaty of Paris between Spain and the USA. We were left out and the decision to become US citizens was not made by us. It is made by congress.

In order for you to be considered a real US citizen it has to be one of two things. You are born in the fifty states and it is by birth and automatic nationality or it is by naturalization Xog. Like you did and your relatives. If it by naturalization to strip you of your citizenship you either have to renounce it officially in writing at a consulate or go through the courts and dissolve it because you are assuming a different nationality. For example, the singer Tina Turner renounced her US citizenship to assume her Swiss nationality. She had to do it through the courts.

Puerto Ricans do not have either option if they are born on the island. I was born on the island. Not stateside, and my parents were born on the island and so were my grandparents and so on for nearly four hundred or more years. No stateside birth there. So my nationality is called statutory citizenship. This means congress can strip it unilaterally without my ability to combat that in court or through any other means. Interesting isn't it? It is the same for Native American people in the USA. They have tribal documents and they are not really US citizens in the conventional sense. They did not leave their homeland and pledge an oath and do that whole thing there. They were taken over by the US government and never agreed to go by the US constitution. It was imposed. If it is imposed? You become an alien in your own land if the whole land grab thing and imperialism states you are in the way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory ... itizenship.

So what does this mean? It means we are not really Americans in the classic sense. After all real contracts that are legally binding are two way streets. An agreement between both parties is reached and you seal the deal.

That never happened in Puerto Rico. I am an immigrant now in Mexico. I did some research on what I qualify for in Mexico as an immigrant. My green card in Mexico does not say nacionalidad estadounidense by itself...it has a curious code. PRI. I found out what that meant? It meant, Puerto Rico was my place of birth. It fell under a rule for becoming a Mexican citizen separate from the US citizens applying for permanent residency or Mexican dual citizenship. Puerto Rico is considered Latin American as such it is fast tracked by two years rather than the standard four years of transition period for permanent resident. It also meant that is the reason I was approved right away for a work permit in Mexico because I speak Spanish and am Latin American and meet the other requirements. Puerto Rico is not considered traditionally American if born on the island. According to UN rules and so on? It is a colonized nation under duress. That is international law.

So, no the US officially and legally can't claim us as American when there was no two-way compact and consent. Now if Puerto Ricans want to leave for the states permanently and voluntarily integrate there? The USA does have to accept us. No matter what. Also by international law. You can't be drafting Puerto Ricans for the military and have them die defending their wars of bullshit without our having rights. At least to have what the Samoans have. So? That is that.

No, it is not a good idea to colonize people XogGyux. It has to do again with choice and not an imposition. Most legal contracts require the consent of the two parties.

I am Latin American. I have no doubts about that Xog. I am not Anglo or assimilated, or confused about my roots. I know where I come from and where I have been. If other people are confused it is their problem. I am not. I am Boricua. Puerto Rican. A woman. An anthropologist. An international socialist. Leftist all the way. Also, I am from the working class. And I have my values and my value system.

It won't be manipulated by some US government trying to tell me I got to go along with their colonial program because they are high and mighty and I am low and powerless.

The truth is people have a right to their dignity, their self-determination, and their own responsibilities. No matter how abusive the government gets out there. As a Cuban American immigrant that should be crystal clear to you.

The truth is you can lie to people most of the time, but you can't lie to people all of the time and think the lies won't be exposed.
#15264207
Tainari88 wrote:@XogGyux wrote:
Well XogGyux, I think you and I have very different concepts about what independence looks like for most nations.

Apparently so.
Funny that you can understand that in health sciences but not in politics XogGyux.

Or perhaps I am the one that understands this and you don't. Time will tell.

In terms of GDP Puerto Rico is not the best per capita income island in the Caribbean dude.

Here they are:

https://best-citizenships.com/2019/05/2 ... countries/

Did you even review that list?

That list is mostly of US, British, French and Dutch territories. It proves my point.
Bermuda: British overseas territory.
Cayman Islands: British overseas territory.
US Virgin islands: It has it on its name, it is US territory
British Virgin Islands: It has it on its name, it is British territory.
Anguilla: British overseas territory.
Turks and Caicos: British overseas territory
St. Martin: French and Dutch territories.

Barbados, Bahamas and St Kitts and Nevis are the only 3 exceptions in that list. Barbados and St Kitts and Nevis both have HALF the GDP per capita as Puerto rico. Only Bahama is about the same, NOT BETTER, about the same as PR, with similar GDP per capita and similar human development index. In fact, there are about 34 countries and/or overseas territories in the Caribbean, the only places there are about 3-4 that have substantially higher GDP than PR and they are all overseas territories of other nations, not independent states.
So you don't really have a model for improvement. If you get any improvement, it would have to be a de novo event, it would have to be something that never occurred before. You are betting the fate of PR on a black swan event.

why is criticizing the USA in its hypocrisy with its inability to accept it is not democratic such a problem for you XogGyux?

It is not so much that it is not a problem, as to the fact that those that are obsessed with criticizing the US have to get their eyes gauged so as to not see the 100x worse problems of the countries that they defend instead. I dislike hypocrisy very much.

What Puerto Rico needs is a lot of young people solving serious problems not only for Puerto Rico but for everyone else out there suffering the coming issues of climate change and storms and extreme weather events brought on by people who refuse to accept that the climate is changing.

Right, because young people are known for their maturity, their experience, their knowledge, their wise behavior, their diligent advise-seeking/following character, etc. There is something to be said about young people having more at stake than older people, after all, young people have more time on this planet left than older people on average. But that is not to say that they are the de-facto better choice for decision-making. In fact, a lack of experience and an underdeveloped pre-frontal cortex argues against it.
3+ million people's well-being is at stake, this is a time for cool heads, strategic/cunning moves, patience and very deliberate decision-making. Revolutions, by definition are a forced overthrow of the prior government... Is that what you want? I can tell you that won't end well. Maybe you can spend the next 50 years playing politics and slowly leverage an independence... maybe that seems unlikely, but it is the only way that you get independence and you don't doom your people to the fate of other fringe nations. You talk about young people.. I was once a young teenager in Cuba... you think PR has it bad? In PR a major hurricane cut power, and people were outraged. In Cuba, cutting power is a normal, daily routine that has been going on since the 1990's... 30 years of scheduled power cuts is when you are lucky, on top of that they also do unscheduled power cuts. You at least have the option to get Solar panels.... how many cubans can even dream about that?
Remember the "Two wings of the same bird", I was born inside the broken wing and I am warning you from throwing your wing against the immovable wall that the US is.
I don't subscribe to the anti-Americanist rhetoric that you do... but even if we consider the US as an evil colonial actor it does not diminish at all the importance of having prudence and cunning, rather than to spark a revolution.

Puerto Ricans are not really Americans like you think. If they were? The phrase of alien races, and a Puerto Rican nationality would not exist. It exists. There were Puerto Ricans who went through the international court system and argued in the international law system for Puerto Rican nationality. They wanted a Puerto Rican passport and argued for one. In the end? They got the Puerto Rican passport. Why? Because the argument was that Puerto Rico when it was invaded was never consulted in the Treaty of Paris between Spain and the USA. We were left out and the decision to become US citizens was not made by us. It is made by congress.

In order for you to be considered a real US citizen it has to be one of two things. You are born in the fifty states and it is by birth and automatic nationality or it is by naturalization Xog. Like you did and your relatives. If it by naturalization to strip you of your citizenship you either have to renounce it officially in writing at a consulate or go through the courts and dissolve it because you are assuming a different nationality. For example, the singer Tina Turner renounced her US citizenship to assume her Swiss nationality. She had to do it through the courts.

Puerto Ricans do not have either option if they are born on the island. I was born on the island. Not stateside, and my parents were born on the island and so were my grandparents and so on for nearly four hundred or more years. No stateside birth there. So my nationality is called statutory citizenship. This means congress can strip it unilaterally without my ability to combat that in court or through any other means. Interesting isn't it? It is the same for Native American people in the USA. They have tribal documents and they are not really US citizens in the conventional sense. They did not leave their homeland and pledge an oath and do that whole thing there. They were taken over by the US government and never agreed to go by the US constitution. It was imposed. If it is imposed? You become an alien in your own land if the whole land grab thing and imperialism states you are in the way.

How many times have PR been stripped by their passports by congress? You doing this because of something that has happened thousands of times right and that you are at a clear and constant danger of falling victim to, correct?
It is ironic that you mention the Native American... The Puerto rican demographics: 2.5 million whites, 300k blacks, ~11k Alaskan native/Native american, ~10k asian. Puerto rico's genetic contribution 66% european 18% african, 16% native american. Most common lastnames: Sanchez, Rivera, Rodriguez, Narvaez, Burgos. Classic architecture is not taino, it is colonial spanish. Your roots are not Native american, they are not taino. Like it or not, your ancestor were the colonizers. The average Puerto Rican today is analogous to the average "Yankee" in the US, not to a Native American.
Before you keep trying to "soften me" with appeals to cultural and ethnic similarities, let me warn you that does not work on me. My country already tried to brainwash me with that crap when I was a kid and I can see right through it. I am Cuban but I don't have to identify with cuban rumba, cigars, ajiaco, baseball... In fact, I like classical music, I cannot stand the smell of tobacco, and the only sport that I can enjoy is chess and that is not a real sport.

That never happened in Puerto Rico. I am an immigrant now in Mexico. I did some research on what I qualify for in Mexico as an immigrant. My green card in Mexico does not say nacionalidad estadounidense by itself...it has a curious code. PRI. I found out what that meant? It meant, Puerto Rico was my place of birth. It fell under a rule for becoming a Mexican citizen separate from the US citizens applying for permanent residency or Mexican dual citizenship. Puerto Rico is considered Latin American as such it is fast tracked by two years rather than the standard four years of transition period for permanent resident. It also meant that is the reason I was approved right away for a work permit in Mexico because I speak Spanish and am Latin American and meet the other requirements. Puerto Rico is not considered traditionally American if born on the island. According to UN rules and so on? It is a colonized nation under duress. That is international law.

For pretty much all that matters, you guys are US citizens. I am not implying that having language somehow implying that you are second class citizen is right, it is ofcourse completely wrong and inexcusable.... but to pretend to have a temper tantrum on this issue and potentially risk having your country fall into civil and political disarray for something that virtually has no impact in your daily life is as dumb as it comes.

So, no the US officially and legally can't claim us as American when there was no two-way compact and consent. Now if Puerto Ricans want to leave for the states permanently and voluntarily integrate there? The USA does have to accept us. No matter what. Also by international law. You can't be drafting Puerto Ricans for the military and have them die defending their wars of bullshit without our having rights. At least to have what the Samoans have. So? That is that.

The US military has been all volunteers since 1973. Thats half a century ago.

No, it is not a good idea to colonize people XogGyux.

No, it is not, and you are arguing with yourself. Nobody has said otherwise. There is nobody alive today that had anything to do with the events that lead to puerto rico being in the situation that it is today. And I hope you would at least consider that there are plenty of people, including actual puerto ricans, that even though they might not have chosen this path for themselves if they had been given the opportunity. But, now that they find themselves already on this path, they might not want to come off.

And I have my values and my value system
\
So do I.

It won't be manipulated by some US government trying to tell me I got to go along with their colonial program because they are high and mighty and I am low and powerless.

Instead, you will be manipulated by a populist movement with empty promises that nobody can possibly deliver.
I have a bit of experience with that.

The truth is people have a right to their dignity, their self-determination, and their own responsibilities.

Yeah, I am sure the Cuban engineer that has to pedal a McDonald's chicken nuggets and coca-cola fattened Canadian on a make-belief tricycle-taxi feels they have a lot of dignity. Or the doctor that is "sold off" as a pseudoslave to Guatemala for a medical mission feels they have a lot of dignity in them.

No matter how abusive the government gets out there.

Believe me, there is room for it to get worse, and you are dancing dangerously close to the fire.

As a Cuban American immigrant that should be crystal clear to you.

PRECISELY!
#15264208
Why I think the statehood choice SUCKS.




That is not a unique occurrence. It happens with almost all the Native populations in the states.

But, the issue with gentrification and with inequality is not a strictly Puerto Rican problem. It is world and globally based because of international capitalist actions all over the world.

Again, it won't become something that is good for peace over time.

I did review the list. I do not think for millions of people like Puerto Rico has being dependent on tax havens and stashing some shell companies in some bank fraud scene is going to be a great sustainable economy for the Caribbean over time. It is not worth it. You need to diversify.

@XogGyux I got to go and interpret for a water rights conference. It is interesting. There is going to be a conflict between California, Nevada, and many other nations that depend on the Colorado River and the snowfall there in order to SURVIVE. But, agri business and greedy companies want to have absolute rights and to hell with regular people.

it is a pattern Xog.

You need to stop making excuses for these assholes with zero ethics Xog. Just because it is the best thing out there. Don't conform to what is fed as the pinnacle of human greatness. Look for justice. No matter what.

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