Venezuela Referendum on the Guyana Esequiba - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15295661
I think this has been very underreported, but Venezuela is holding a referendum on the Guyana Esequiba on December 3rd.

Let's start with the basics: What's the Guyana Esequiba?

Wiki wrote:Guayana Esequiba (Spanish pronunciation: [ɡwaˈʝana eseˈkiβa] ⓘ), sometimes also called Esequibo or Essequibo, is a disputed territory of 159,500 km2 (61,600 sq mi) west of the Essequibo River that is administered and controlled by Guyana but claimed by Venezuela.[1][2] The boundary dispute was inherited from the colonial powers (Spain in the case of Venezuela, and the Netherlands and the United Kingdom in the case of Guyana) and has been complicated by the independence of Guyana from the United Kingdom in 1966.

The status of the territory is subject to the Geneva Agreement, which was signed by the United Kingdom, Venezuela and British Guiana on 17 February 1966. This treaty stipulates that the parties will agree to find a practical, peaceful and satisfactory solution to the dispute.[3] Should there be a stalemate, according to the treaty, the decision as to the means of settlement is to be referred to an "appropriate international organ" or, failing agreement on this point, to the Secretary-General of the United Nations.[3] The Secretary-General referred the entire matter to the International Court of Justice. On 18 December 2020, the ICJ accepted the case submitted by Guyana to settle the dispute.[4]

Currently, the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela claims all of the land west of the Essequibo river, which it refers to as Zona en Reclamación or Zone in Reclamation.[citation needed] Historically, this did not include the tributaries of the Amazon river and the Pirara area which were only ceded to British Guiana in 1904 during arbitration with Brazil. The Northwestern border of Guayana Esequiba follows the 1905 border as established by the British-Venezuelan Mixed Boundry Commission, in accordance with the Arbitral Award of 3 October 1899. However, Venezuela currently seeks to abrogate the legal borders and currently agrees only to the Essequibo river boundary. In 1966, five months after Guyana gained independence, the Venezuelan armed forces crossed the boundary on Ankoko Island and has occupied the Guyanese side of the island ever since, in violation of the peace treaty set forth by the Geneva Agreement.

The territory is divided by Guyana into six administrative regions: Barima-Waini, Cuyuni-Mazaruni, Pomeroon-Supenaam, Potaro-Siparuni, Upper Takutu-Upper Essequibo and Essequibo Islands-West Demerara. Venezuela often depicts it on the map as a striped region.


A relevant piece of information on why the Esequiba, possibly the oldest standing border dispute in South America if considering the colonial era, has become even more important in recent years:

Foreign Policy (Archived 03/02/2016) wrote:An Oil Strike in No Man’s Land
BY DANIEL LANSBERG-RODRÍGUEZJUNE 16, 2015 - 5:09 PM

At first glance, it looks like the miracle Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro has been holding out for has finally happened. Exxon Mobil recently announced a “significant” oil find, and the drilling of its first offshore well, in the Stabroek Block, just a few miles off the Venezuelan coast. While details remain murky, some estimates claim that this new cache of crude could approach 1.5 billion barrels. And that potentially constitutes a significant windfall for Caracas, especially since the national oil company, PDVSA, is struggling to cope with low crude prices and a sagging economy.

There’s just one snag: The Stabroek Block isn’t technically in Venezuela — at least not according to most non-Venezuelan maps. The disputed territory it’s in — Guayana Esequiba — actually constitutes around two thirds of the neighboring country of Guyana, population 800,000. (Guyana is perhaps best known to Americans for the 1978 Jonestown Massacre.) Originally a Dutch colony called Essequibo, Guyana was handed over to Britain as part of the 1814 Anglo-Dutch Treaty with no clear western boundary. True to form, the British defined their own, giving themselves an additional 30,000 square miles of territory. Venezuela was not amused.

Today, for many Venezuelans, the long-lost “Venezuela Esequibo” region remains an acutely felt historical grievance. It’s known as “the Territory To Be Reclaimed,” a lingering reminder of a time when humiliations were imposed upon weaker states by perfidious great powers, especially since a subsequent international arbitration awarded much of the territory to Britain in 1899 under shady circumstances.

The dispute would seem a natural fit for the late Hugo Chávez’s unique brand of anti-imperialist demagoguery — and, for a time, it was. But when the price of oil spiked in the early 2000s, Chávez’s ambitions became more global. Rather than risk alienating his smaller Caribbean neighbors, which he was attempting to woo through generous supplies of cheap oil, Chávez shrugged off the matter despite considerable domestic pushback. In 2004, he even publicly stated that Venezuela would not interfere should Guyana decide to grant infrastructure and exploratory concessions to multinational oil companies in the contested region — a departure from Venezuelan policy since Guyanese independence in the 1960s. While Chavez’s assurance wasn’t legally binding, the Guyanese government has since relied heavily upon such magnanimous statements by the late “eternal Comandante” to justify new development projects in the territory.

All of this places Maduro in a somewhat tricky situation: Should he continue his mentor’s conciliatory approach and make good on his promise, or try to capitalize on the stored reservoir of aggrieved emotion to stabilize his floundering government?

After all, generations of Venezuelans have been raised on tales of the historic territorial trespass committed against their homeland by foreign powers; Chávez’s policy of Guyanese rapprochement was controversial even for him. With popularity levels hovering at a record low of 28 percent, Maduro can ill afford to be seen as the president who definitively surrendered the territory and the oil windfall — especially not while Venezuelans suffer from acute shortages and triple-digit inflation. While it’s highly unlikely that Caracas will ever be in a position to profit from the new find, an escalating dispute could serve as a valuable smokescreen to cover up the country’s domestic miseries, and any resultant surge in nationalistic sentiment might even help salvage Maduro’s legislative majority in the looming December elections.


Like any postcolonial patchwork, Latin America has its fair share of simmering territorial disputes and historical grievances. Bolivia blames Chile for its lack of access to the sea, Guatemala claims either half or all of Belize (depending on who’s in charge), and, best known of all, there’s the Argentine dispute with Britain over the Malvinas/Falkland Islands. Throughout the region, such issues are often invoked as nationalistic rallying points, since escalation can boost sagging approval ratings and distract from other problems. Doing so, however, is not without risk. In 1981, Argentine military dictator Leopoldo Galtieri was facing many of the same problems currently assailing Maduro, including hyperinflation and international censure for human rights abuses. By escalating the Malvinas dispute, Galtieri briefly spurred a flood of nationalist enthusiasm that made him wildly popular for a time — but eventually led to a disastrous war with Britain that precipitated his eventual downfall and imprisonment.

Venezuela, which hasn’t warred with a neighbor since its independence, won’t do so over the Esequibo, but escalation can take other forms. When the issue of Exxon oil drilling in Guyana first reemerged earlier this year, Venezuelan Foreign Minister Delcy Rodríguez sent a note to Exxon asking them to discontinue their activities. There was no reply, save for a request from the Guyanese government to kindly desist meddling. Venezuela subsequently upped the ante, publishing an ominous warning to the Guyanese public in a local newspaper “deploring” Guyana’s unilateral acts and asserting that Caracas “reserves the right to execute all actions in the diplomatic field and in accordance with international law” to preserve its sovereignty in relation to the “Esequibo Reclamation Zone.” When this, too, failed to produce the desired response, Maduro pushed further, publishing an official decree on May 26 asserting Venezuelan military control over Venezuelan coastal waters as far east as Suriname — thereby landlocking Guyana, on paper at least, for its impertinence.

Stern words but no dice. Guyana called the bluff and pushed forward, decrying Venezuelan attempts at “annexation,” canceling local flights to Caracas, and requesting U.N. intervention to force a definitive judicial solution. Maduro has since backed down a bit, sneaking a new paragraph into his decree on June 8 clarifying that Guyana won’t really be landlocked, since “some maritime area” will be allowed them once an eventual negotiated settlement is found.

Too strong an escalation risks making Venezuela look like a bully. In a much-publicized 2013 incident, Guyana claimed that the “Bolivarian Armada” had evicted a Texas-based oil exploration ship from disputed waters, resulting in considerable international condemnation. As small Caribbean countries in the vicinity instinctively rally to the defense of one of their own, Maduro risks undoing what remains of the regional goodwill Chávez had built up over the years. Even Cuba, Venezuela’s closest ally, opposes harsh measures towards Guyana. Furthermore, while much-maligned Exxon — which Maduro claims is manufacturing the current crisis to undermine Venezuela’s socialist revolution — may have the biggest stake in the Stabroek project, a 25 percent minority stake is currently held by a subsidiary of China National Offshore Oil Corporation: And the Maduro regime’s survival is heavily dependent on Bejing’s goodwill (and regular loans).

Faced with this conundrum, Maduro will likely revert to what he does best: waiting it out and hoping for a miracle. Perhaps Guyana will change its mind and request to be annexed by the glorious Bolivarian revolution. A contrite Exxon might unexpectedly decide to throw the odd billion his way, if only to atone for the sins of its capitalist past. Or Venezuela might have the luck to find the fabled golden city of El Dorado, long rumored to be hidden somewhere in the eastern Venezuelan jungles. Now that would really solve all of Maduro’s problems — provided, of course, it isn’t on the Guyanese side.


I find the bolded parts interesting, but that was the assessment back in 2016. Now, in late 2023, Venezuela will hold a referendum on the Esequiba. What will they ask?

The 2023 Venezuelan consultative referendum is a ballot measure supported by the government of Nicolás Maduro in support of Venezuela's claim to the Guayana Esequiba region, which lies entirely in the territory of neighboring Guyana. The referendum is scheduled to be held on 3 December 2023.[1]

Questions
The following questions were approved by the National Electoral Council on 23 October 2023[2] and approved by the Constitutional Chamber of the Supreme Justice Court on 1 November 2023:

1. "Do you agree to reject by all means in accordance with the law, the line fraudulently interposed by the 1899 Paris Arbitration Award, which seeks to deprive us of our Guayana Esequiba?"

2. "Do you support the 1966 Geneva Agreement as the only valid legal instrument to reach a practical and satisfactory solution for Venezuela and Guyana regarding the controversy over the territory of Guayana Esequiba?"

3. "Do you agree with Venezuela's historical position of not recognizing the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice to resolve the territorial controversy over Guayana Esequiba?"

4. "Do you agree to oppose, by all legal means, Guyana's claim to unilaterally dispose of a sea pending delimitation, illegally and in violation of international law?"

5. "Do you agree with the creation of the Guayana Esequiba state and the development of an accelerated plan for comprehensive care for the current and future population of that territory, which includes, among others, the granting of citizenship and identity card? Venezuela, in accordance with the Geneva Agreement and International Law, consequently incorporating said state on the map of Venezuelan territory?"[2]


Question 5, bolded, is the important one. Guyana quite evidently did not like it and is asking the ICJ to stop the referendum, yet Venezuela said it will hold it regardless. It should be noted the ICJ is in fact working on this dispute as it was referred to it by the UN Secretary General in 2018 because, in his view, there is no other way to resolve it since negotiations have failed to do so.

What will the vote be? Or more precisely, what does the Venezuelan government want it to be?

As anyone can tell, there are quite a few active flare-ups that had been dormant until last year (the war between Russia and Ukraine, the war between Israel and Hamas, the Sudanese civil war to name some) on top of the longer standing ones in places like Syria, Yemen and many parts of Asia and Africa, all of which have diverted the attention of the Biden administration from the whole China-Taiwan issue and the broader South China Sea dispute. Furthermore, the Biden administration is also trying to improve its relations with Venezuela so it can increase its oil production and relieve the upward pressure on oil prices that began with the sanctions on Russia over the still ongoing war with Ukraine. These would all be good reasons for believing the US would not move to save Guyana if the vote was favorable to all those questions and Venezuela decided to invade.

On the other hand, if Venezuela did in fact invade the Guyana over a favorable vote, what kind of precedent would that set? Can the various South American countries live with it and can the US just let this slide? If not, would this deter Venezuela from launching an invasion?

As for the Venezuelan domestic political situation, it seems that if the election was free and fair all 5 questions would be answered in the affirmative - even the opposition agrees with their historical demands on the Esequiba. So if it's just about domestic politics, it doesn't seem Maduro's government would face too much internal resistance to do as it wishes regarding the Guyana Esequiba.

Any takers?
#15296073
I'm not sure Venezuela is in the condition to launch an invasion of a neighboring country's territory, with all the economic discord and chaos that's been going on over the past many years in Venezuela.
On the other hand, launching an invasion, especially one that would be popular with the people, would be a great distraction from the country's many domestic problems, and could help Maduro's party consolidate more power and political support.

An irony is that the Left supposedly claims not to support war and belligerent aggression to take territory, but the actual thing those on the Left want most is anything involving "free money", and that what taking this oil-rich territory would give them, or represent. The poorer masses who support the Left in Venezuela right now are desperate. They would frame it was "righting old historical colonial wrongs".

If the current president of the United States were Republican, I think it would be more likely to dissuade Venezuela from any possibility of military action into a neighboring country's territory. (A president like Obama or the Biden Administration which represents a more Left progressive party would be more likely to ignore any controversial acts from a Left run country like Venezuela, whereas under Republican presidents the U.S. is more likely to carry out the policy of maintaining a sphere of influence in the nearby Latin American region)
If Venezuela did launch an invasion, I could foresee it even being possible the U.K. might get involved. Might want to protect their British Petroleum company's interests, as well as Guyana being a former British colony.

I would like to say this is an excellent post, the type of post that is rare in this forum.
#15296076
Puffer Fish wrote:I'm not sure Venezuela is in the condition to launch an invasion of a neighboring country's territory, with all the economic discord and chaos that's been going on over the past many years in Venezuela.


The military disparity between both is just too large. Guyana can't defend on its own, so a third party would need to step up.

Another factor I did not mention is that both Brazil and Colombia have leftist presidents. That is also something that may encourage Maduro to take the Esequibo.

Puffer Fish wrote:On the other hand, launching an invasion, especially one that would be popular with the people, would be a great distraction from the country's many domestic problems, and could help Maduro's party consolidate more power and political support.


Indeed, it's not unprecedented either.

Puffer Fish wrote:An irony is that the Left supposedly claims not to support war and belligerent aggression to take territory, but the actual thing those on the Left want most is anything involving "free money", and that what taking this oil-rich territory would give them, or represent. The poorer masses who support the Left in Venezuela right now are desperate. They would frame it was "righting old historical colonial wrongs".


I do wonder how would the American left regard a Venezuelan invasion of the Esequibo, though. Guyana's population is largely Black, descendant of slaves and Guyana has traditionally been one of the poorest countries in South America. OTOH, Venezuela opposes the US.

It would be interesting to see what prevails here.

Puffer Fish wrote:If the current president of the United States were Republican, I think it would be more likely to dissuade Venezuela from any possibility of military action into a neighboring country's territory. (A president like Obama or the Biden Administration which represents a more Left progressive party would be more likely to ignore any controversial acts from a Left run country like Venezuela, whereas under Republican presidents the U.S. is more likely to carry out the policy of maintaining a sphere of influence in the nearby Latin American region)
If Venezuela did launch an invasion, I could foresee it even being possible the U.K. might get involved. Might want to protect their British Petroleum company's interests, as well as Guyana being a former British colony.


I agree, although Democrats can also be hawkish. In this case, one can't rule out an American intervention. It would be easier if many Latin American governments asked for one, though.

Puffer Fish wrote:I would like to say this is an excellent post, the type of post that is rare in this forum.


Thanks. Let's see what happens after December 3rd. Maybe Maduro is just posturing, and question 5 comes back as a negative (it's not like the results can't be anything the government doesn't want anyway).

But if they don't? Would Venezuela invade?
#15297493
AP wrote:Venezuelans approve a referendum to claim sovereignty over a swathe of neighboring Guyana

BY REGINA GARCIA CANO AND JORGE RUEDA
Updated 10:38 PM GMT-6, December 3, 2023
Share
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuelans on Sunday approved a referendum called by the government of President Nicolás Maduro to claim sovereignty over an oil- and mineral-rich area of neighboring Guyana it argues was stolen when the border was drawn more than a century ago.

It remains unclear how Maduro will enforce the results of the vote. But Guyana considers the referendum a step toward annexation, and the vote has its residents on edge.

The National Electoral Council claimed to have counted more than 10.5 million votes even though few voters could be seen at polling sites throughout the voting period for the five-question referendum. The council, however, did not explain whether the number of votes was equivalent to each voter or if it was the sum of each individual answer.

Venezuelan voters were asked whether they support establishing a state in the disputed territory, known as Essequibo, granting citizenship to current and future area residents and rejecting the jurisdiction of the United Nations’ top court in settling the disagreement between the South American countries.

“It has been a total success for our country, for our democracy,” Maduro told supporters gathered in Caracas, the capital, after results were announced. He claimed the referendum had “very important level of participation.”

Yet long lines typical of electoral events did not form outside voting centers in Caracas throughout Sunday, even after the country’s top electoral authority, Elvis Amoroso, announced the 12-hour voting period would be extended by two hours.

If the participation figure offered by Amoroso refers to voters, it would mean more people voted in the referendum than they did for Hugo Chávez, Maduro’s mentor and predecessor, when he was re-elected in the 2012 presidential contest. But if it is equivalent to each individual answer marked by voters, turnout could drop to as low as 2.1 million voters.

“I came to vote because Essequibo is ours, and I hope that whatever they are going to do, they think about it thoroughly and remember to never put peace at risk,” merchant Juan Carlos Rodríguez, 37, said after voting at a center in Caracas where only a handful of people were in line.

The International Court of Justice on Friday ordered Venezuela not to take any action that would alter Guyana’s control over Essequibo, but the judges did not specifically ban officials from carrying out Sunday’s five-question referendum. Guyana had asked the court to order Venezuela to halt parts of the vote.

Although the practical and legal implications of the referendum remain unclear, in comments explaining Friday’s verdict, international court president Joan E. Donoghue said statements from Venezuela’s government suggest it “is taking steps with a view toward acquiring control over and administering the territory in dispute.”

“Furthermore, Venezuelan military officials announced that Venezuela is taking concrete measures to build an airstrip to serve as a ‘logistical support point for the integral development of the Essequibo,’” she said.

The 61,600-square-mile (159,500-square-kilometer) territory accounts for two-thirds of Guyana and also borders Brazil, whose Defense Ministry earlier this week in a statement said it has “intensified its defense actions” and boosted its military presence in the region as a result of the dispute.

Essequibo is larger than Greece and rich in minerals. It also gives access to an area of the Atlantic where energy giant ExxonMobil discovered oil in commercial quantities in 2015, drawing the attention of Maduro’s government.

Venezuela’s government promoted the referendum for weeks, framing participation as an act of patriotism and often conflating it with a show of support for Maduro. The country has always considered Essequibo as its own because the region was within its boundaries during the Spanish colonial period, and it has long disputed the border decided by international arbitrators in 1899 when Guyana was still a British colony.

That boundary was decided by arbitrators from Britain, Russia and the United States. The U.S. represented Venezuela on the panel in part because the Venezuelan government had broken off diplomatic relations with Britain.

Venezuelan officials contend that Americans and Europeans conspired to cheat their country out of the land and argue that a 1966 agreement to resolve the dispute effectively nullified the original arbitration.

Guyana, the only English-speaking country in South America, maintains the initial accord is legal and binding and asked the International Court of Justice in 2018 to rule it as such, but a decision is years away.

Voters on Sunday had to answer whether they “agree to reject by all means, in accordance with the law,” the 1899 boundary and whether they support the 1966 agreement “as the only valid legal instrument” to reach a solution.

Maduro threw the full weight of his government into the effort. Essequibo-themed music, nationally televised history lessons, murals, rallies and social media content helped the government to divert people’s attention from pressing matters, including increasing pressure from the U.S. government on Maduro to release political prisoners and wrongfully detained Americans as well as to guarantee free and fair conditions in next year’s presidential election.

In a tour of Caracas voting centers by The Associated Press, lines of about 30 people could be seen at some of them, while at others, voters did not have to wait at all to cast their ballots. That contrasts with other electoral processes when hundreds of people gathered outside voting centers from the start.

The activity also paled in comparison with the hours-long lines that formed outside polls during the presidential primary held by a faction of the opposition in October without assistance from the National Electoral Council.

More than 2.4 million people participated in the primary, a number that government officials declared mathematically impossible given the number of available voting centers and the time it takes a person to cast a paper ballot. State media attributed the lack of wait times Sunday to the fast speed at which people were casting their electronic ballots.

Maduro told supporters celebrating the results that it only took him 15 seconds to vote early Sunday.

Ángela Albornoz, a grassroots organizer for the ruling party, told the AP she estimated that between 23% and 24% of the voters assigned to her voting center cast ballots Sunday. Albornoz, 62, said that figure was below her expectations for an event meant to bring together all Venezuelans “regardless of politics.”

Guyana President Mohamed Irfaan Ali on Sunday told Guyanese his government is working continuously to ensure the country’s borders “remain intact” and said people have “nothing to fear over the next number of hours, days, months ahead.”

“I want to advise Venezuela that this is an opportunity for them to show maturity, an opportunity for them to show responsibility, and we call upon them once more join us in ... allowing the rule of law to work and to determine the outcome of this controversy,” Ali said.

___
Garcia Cano reported from Mexico City. Associated Press photographer Matias Delacroix contributed to this report.


No surprises here, let's see what happens next.
#15297933
Trinidad and Tobago Newsday wrote:Venezuela instals Essequibo governor
RYAN HAMILTON-DAVIS 3 DAYS AGO

Despite a direct order from the International Court of Justice not to interfere with the borders between Venezuela and Guyana, President Maduro has claimed the Essequibo region as part of Venezuela and announced a governor of the region, Maj Gen Alexis Rodriguez Cabello.

A Kaieteur News report said Maduro also announced a new high commission for the defence of Guyana and activated a debate in the National Assembly to approve the Organic Law for the Defence of Guayana Esequiba, which Maduro said would give rise to the implementation of the Venezuelan referendum.

Maduro has also said the oil companies currently operating in the Essequibo have three months to move out, and has instructed the state oil company PDVSA and the Venezuelan Corpration of Guyana to proceed with granting licences for oil, gas and mining exploration.

Maduro also intends to create a defensive zone of the region, with three areas of integral development and 28 development sectors.


For now, Venezuela seems to be sticking to symbolic measures.

Brazil announced it's moving troops and vehicles to its northern border, and it seems Lula will visit Guyana next year. The US and Guyana will also do military exercises in Guyana, will this deter Maduro from doing anything stupid?
#15297950
wat0n wrote:The US and Guyana will also do military exercises in Guyana, will this deter Maduro from doing anything stupid?

This is terrible news, but to be expected by a weak President. If Biden were a strong President he would do absolutely nothing to deter a Venezuelan invasion, and then if they did invade he'd go in and take out Maduro. If any evidence of Cuban collaboration was discovered he would take out the Cuban regime as well.
#15297982
Beren wrote:Maduro doesn't know what he's doing, his Russian advisors do.


He knows what he is doing. It looks like a semi-open election will be held in Venezuela soon but he is hated by everyone or vast majority at least. His support is around the Belarussian Roach levels(About 5% lol) He wants a fast quick war to get his popularity up. Obviously it won't be because fighting in a jungle with no infrastructure is a bad idea if he invades.

Also China and America will basically anally rape him for doing it since their companies together do like 60% of oil extraction there. Rarely China and US agree on something but no war in Guyana would be something that they do agree on. Brazil is also against the idea of war and will also probably intervene if it starts.

The long story short is this is stupid and probably not going to happen.

The semi-open election will be held because Venezuela wants sanctions off and it is the only way they can get them off.
#15297988
Beren wrote:It's not his own idea and he'd have never had the audacity to come up with it all by himself.


I mean, you don't need much creativity for this. Putin is doing this for the 2nd time and many, many other examples from history.
#15297992
JohnRawls wrote:I mean, you don't need much creativity for this. Putin is doing this for the 2nd time and many, many other examples from history.

Most of which ended badly. This is an extremely bad idea, which doesn’t mean of course that Maduro won’t do it. Cleverer men than him have made bigger mistakes.
#15298004
Potemkin wrote:Most of which ended badly. This is an extremely bad idea, which doesn’t mean of course that Maduro won’t do it. Cleverer men than him have made bigger mistakes.

Maduro only takes instructions in this case, he must have been promised a cosy life in Moscow anyways.
#15298017
Rancid wrote:With people this dumb running nations. I wonder if I could find some small nation somewhere to become dictator of.

Nah, you gotta think big, @Rancid - you should try to take over America. Just do what Obama did and fake your birth certificate so you can run for President. You’re not senile like Biden or stupid like Trump. You’d be unstoppable! :excited:
#15298020
Potemkin wrote:Nah, you gotta think big, @Rancid - you should try to take over America. Just do what Obama did and fake your birth certificate so you can run for President. You’re not senile like Biden or stupid like Trump. You’d be unstoppable! :excited:


I was born in the US. 8) My older siblings were born in the old country.

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