Syrian war thread - Page 181 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Hindsite
#14997975
Syria Threatens to Unleash Tunnel Warfare Against Israel
March 31, 2019

First, it was Hamas, and then Hezbollah. Now, Syria is threatening to undermine Israel with tunnels.

In fact, a Syrian general claims that the Syrian Civil War has turned Syrian soldiers into “experts” at digging holes in the ground.

“I can tell you that as experts on tunnel warfare, we have made large strides during this crisis, throughout the years of the war,” Brigadier-General Lu’ayy Shehadeh told Hezbollah TV network Al-Manar.

In its seventy-five-year history, the Syrian military has rarely had a reputation for being expert in anything. But fighting the Islamic State, which has used underground fortifications extensively, has given the Syrian Arab Army—the official name of the Syrian ground forces—a bloody lesson in subterranean warfare. And not just Syrian government soldiers: American soldiers and U.S.-backed Syrian, Iraqi and Kurdish fighters have had immense difficulty rooting out ISIS from labyrinthine tunnel complexes in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria. Subterranean passages enable ISIS fighters to avoid air strikes and artillery fire, escape encirclement, and allow them to pop out of the ground to spring ambushes.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... rael-49687
#14997984
Got any citations?


He dont need citations he lived there
why is it so hard to believe? because the information he posted contradicts your world view? :lol:

spinster you are pathetic none takes you seriously anymore
and that twitter spam is annoying to bad there is nothing that can block this shit
By anasawad
#14998051
@skinster
Tons available if any bothered searching for it; Furthermore, you can easily know the nature of Syria before the war from listening either to refugees escaping from it, or the causes of the revolution and early protests according to the opposition itself.
Syria is a fascist country by its own admission, and it is an apartheid state with the Alawites on top and everyone else at the bottom by anyone who knew anything about Syria before the war.

And we do know what Baathist barbarism is like first hand, after all, we did spend 15 years fighting them on a daily basis as they continuously tried to subdue us and take control of our land for the water sources.

In Syria, all the wealth and control and even rights are concentrated in the hands of house Assad, house Makhlouf, house Shaleish, house Kheir Bek, and house Kamal El-Dein; All are Alawites and those houses represent over 80% of the Alawite population and all the top members of the Baath party and a quick look at the list of top commanders, officers, intelligence and state officials immediately reveals this.


For the whole citations thing, there are many books about the oppressive, tyrannic, and border-line apartheid status of Syria under the Baath- Alawite rule in Syria.
I personally recommend starting with Patrick Seale's Asad of Syria and Nikolaos Van Dam The struggle for power in Syria (2 books).

And if you feel that books and articles by non-Syrians, I have a whole list of numbers of Syrians who escaped from Syria both within and prior to the war, whom I either met during our volunteer work with the hope foundation in Lebanon, or whom I personally trained, also in Lebanon. You can have their numbers and call all of them to ask what exactly is Baathist Syria like in real life, even prior to the war.

There is a reason why many people ran from the country before the war or even before the Arab Spring protests, to begin with, and it's not because it's a liberal paradise under the fascist rule of the Baath party.



EDIT:
Another thing, for the thing about forcing people to sell or into bad partnerships, look up Rami Makhlouf and his history; He's perhaps the biggest example of these practices, and he has billions of dollars to show for the success of his methods (i.e forcing people to sell hem property at below market prices and forcing local businesses into partnerships where he essentially just take controlling share of the business under gunpoint without even paying a dime of compensation to the other side.)


EDIT:
It can happen where both sides are equally bad.
By skinster
#14998134


Zionist Nationalist wrote:He dont need citations he lived there


No he doesn't and yes he does need to cite his claims if he wants me to believe them. You're a settler living in Palestine but who would trust you on anything about Palestine? :lol:

why is it so hard to believe? because the information he posted contradicts your world view? :lol:


Actually it's because I've never heard of apartheid in Syria's governance, which is why I asked for information about that thing you guys are claiming so I can read up for myself. A reminder that this is a messageboard.

spinster you are pathetic none takes you seriously anymore


I care what zionists think about me. What made you think that was ever a thing? :lol:

and that twitter spam is annoying to bad there is nothing that can block this shit


:lol:


anasawad wrote:@skinster
Tons available if any bothered searching for it;


Err, you're making claims so prove them, that's what I'm asking for. I'm willing to review my position if I get better information, but that hasn't happened yet.

Furthermore, you can easily know the nature of Syria before the war from listening either to refugees escaping from it, or the causes of the revolution and early protests according to the opposition itself.


I've read a few books on Syria, know Syrians - inc amongst the opposition - and understand what was happening in Syria in 2011 wasn't a "revolution". Who believes that in 2019?

As for people escaping Syria during war-time, I guess so many Syrians hate on Syria so much that they keep returning home after the SAA/Russia etc. continuously gained back territory over the last couple of years. Weird they'd do that even when offered refuge with no questions asked in states like Germany.

Syria is a fascist country by its own admission, and it is an apartheid state with the Alawites on top and everyone else at the bottom by anyone who knew anything about Syria before the war.


Citations needed. I know the Alawites are the main sect in power but the govt includes people from other sects too and I don't know about any segregation in Syria imposed on the people like what is taking place in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

There is a reason why many people ran from the country before the war or even before the Arab Spring protests, to begin with, and it's not because it's a liberal paradise under the fascist rule of the Baath party.


How many people and when was this?

EDIT:
Another thing, for the thing about forcing people to sell or into bad partnerships, look up Rami Makhlouf and his history


How about post things about what I'm actually debating rather than telling me to look stuff up. I'm supposed to do your work for you? :eh:

EDIT:
It can happen where both sides are equally bad.


I'm not cheerleading for the Syrian govt but I support its right for self-determination when dealing with imperialism from the govts I've lived under in the last decade...and oppose ethnic cleansing and settler-colonialism there (like what ZN supports in the Golan).
By anasawad
#14998156
@skinster
Citations needed. I know the Alawites are the main sect in power but the govt includes people from other sects too and I don't know about any segregation in Syria imposed on the people like what is taking place in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

1- It's in their name. The Baath party is a national socialist party, i.e fascist.
Arab nationalism and Socialism to be specific.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%27ath_Party

2- There isn't any physical segregation, simply higher positions only goes to specific people and no one else.
It's segregated in terms of political and social rights and liberties.
The books I named explain it in detail.

I've read a few books on Syria, know Syrians - inc amongst the opposition - and understand what was happening in Syria in 2011 wasn't a "revolution". Who believes that in 2019?


It was, 2011 was when the protests began where 100s of thousands went on to protest the government.
The war began when a part of the army split off and attempted a coup (i.e the FSA) which was in early 2012.
Islamists later entered the picture from Jordan in late 2012 and early 2013 then from Iraq in 2013 and onward.

As for people escaping Syria during war-time, I guess so many Syrians hate on Syria so much that they keep returning home after the SAA/Russia etc. continuously gained back territory over the last couple of years. Weird they'd do that even when offered refuge with no questions asked in states like Germany.

Baathist who went abroad escaping Islamists are indeed returning to Syria, others are not.

There are still 5 million out of Syria even when the war effectively ended in most major areas all the way in late 2017.

How many people and when was this?

There are between 30-38 million Syrians in the world( carrying Syrian nationality and passport), 18 and a half of them only live in Syria.

For the when;
The main migration waves began in the late 1950s as the Baath party along with several other nationalist and socialist parties were rising and fighting, and continued on until this day with migration generally skyrocketing around the same time there happens to be a purge and consolidation of powers in the country or any type of uprisings.

For the exact numbers leaving Syria per year or left in total, We can't fully know since the Syrian government doesn't release these data, we can only know from studies looking at other countries stats and data.

Currently, most estimates put the total number of Syrians between 30-38 million Syrians.
I take more to the estimates of Dr. Mohamad Jamal Barot who did a study on the topic and found there are 9.8 million Syrian expats as of 2010, and in the same study he puts the annual migration rate at over 10 per thousand or in other words, 1% of Syria's population left the country each year.
(EDIT: The annual migration rate is for the last decade as of 2010, meaning 2000-2010).
He works for the Arab center for research and policy studies.
Here is the link to his profile, the studies are the ones from 2011. (one study, but listed in 5 parts)
However, I've been looking for half an hour and couldn't find an English translation, so you have to translate as you read through.
https://www.dohainstitute.org/ar/Pages/ ... org/ar&#k=

How about post things about what I'm actually debating rather than telling me to look stuff up. I'm supposed to do your work for you?

He's the biggest example of something I said that you questioned.
Heck, Rami Makhlouf, Refaat Al-Assad and Maher Al-Assad were the ones to start these practices.

I'm not cheerleading for the Syrian govt but I support its right for self-determination when dealing with imperialism from the govts I've lived under in the last decade...and oppose ethnic cleansing and settler-colonialism there (like what ZN supports in the Golan).

Except those are different subjects.
For one, Israel committing war crimes doesn't mean Baathist stopped being war criminals.
Israel committing ethnic cleansing or being an apartheid state doesn't mean the Alawites in Syria are innocent of the same practices.


And you can, again, read Patrick Seale and Nikolaos Van Dam's books on the topic, they are very insightful and give a very good idea of what Syria is like politically before the war.
Noting that those aren't books I just searched up online and put them in, in fact, I do recall posting Patrick Seale's book here on PoFo a good while back since he's one of my favorites.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:
On a side note, after my last post (not this one, the one before it), I realized after reviewing it that 'll probably be dragged into a question about the numbers which I didn't know in full; So I started looking up any available sources (this is why I've been online for 3 or so hours so far here).
Anyhow, what this edit is here to say;
The studies from Al-jazeera center for research is useless and propaganda at best.
There are multiple research centers belonging to the Baath party covering all these topics, but again propaganda.
And there is the Fiker center for studies (all politics), somewhat reliable though not very much on the numbers angle, then there is the Arab center for research and study (not the same as below) which seems to be heavily skewed towards the Muslim Brotherhood.
The most reliable sources so far I found were the Arab center for research and policy studies, Rawabet center for research and strategic studies, and to some extent ٌRafiq Hariri center for middle eastern studies ( though they have some bias, their information has always proven accurate and reliable).
You can use those for in-depth and detailed information regarding many parts of the region.
Last edited by anasawad on 09 Apr 2019 00:27, edited 4 times in total.
By skinster
#14998804






anasawad wrote:1- It's in their name. The Baath party is a national socialist party, i.e fascist.




2- There isn't any physical segregation, simply higher positions only goes to specific people and no one else.
It's segregated in terms of political and social rights and liberties.
The books I named explain it in detail.


I'm not going to read the book you named because my reading list is already full right now but you have citations of apartheid in Syria, please share.


It was, 2011 was when the protests began where 100s of thousands went on to protest the government.
The war began when a part of the army split off and attempted a coup (i.e the FSA) which was in early 2012.


The protests were infiltrated by outsiders planning to take Syria down right after the same happened to Libya, who weren't interest in legitimate protests but all out war, and that's what happened.

Baathist who went abroad escaping Islamists are indeed returning to Syria, others are not.


Yeah and...others are. :eh:

For one, Israel committing war crimes doesn't mean Baathist stopped being war criminals.


Israel imposing a system of apartheid on the Palestinians - the argument made by ZN - is not the same as Syrian politicians being war criminals, but if they are, please share how.

Israel committing ethnic cleansing or being an apartheid state doesn't mean the Alawites in Syria are innocent of the same practices.


If the Alawites in Syria are imposing a system of apartheid on half of their citizens who live under military occupation, please show how.

This video from Lebanon at the last Syrian election is cool.
By anasawad
#14998867
@skinster
They forget a word in their definition; It's Arab *nationalism* and socialism.
Syria fits all the description of Fascism as expected, and almost nothing of socialism.

I'm not going to read the book you named because my reading list is already full right now but you have citations of apartheid in Syria, please share.

I did,3 books and a study explaining it in details, and since you are one of the main defenders of Syria, you should take some time to read about Syria's regime pre-war.

Alawite monopoly on power in Syria is not a disputed fact, not even by Syrians.
The protests were infiltrated by outsiders planning to take Syria down right after the same happened to Libya, who weren't interest in legitimate protests but all-out war, and that's what happened.

Being infiltrated by outsiders doesn't change the fact that they happened. There was an uprising against the fascistic regime of the Baath party; Syria's enemies taking advantage of it to bring the regime, that has been constantly attacking all of its neighbors for decades, down is not a surprise.

Yeah and...others are. :eh:

According to the Baath party statements, over 1.5 million members or supporters of the Baath party have left the country since 2011.
Since nearly half of all Syria nationals are outside of Syria, many with no intention of returning, with a few 100s of thousands of Baathists who just won the war, on the dead bodies of over half a million people, and feel safe to return to the country.

Israel imposing a system of apartheid on the Palestinians - the argument made by ZN - is not the same as Syrian politicians being war criminals, but if they are, please share how.

All the war, all the dead, and you still don't feel like the Baathist regime is filled with war criminals? isn't half a million dead enough to call war crimes? or should we wait till it reaches a million or two?

If the Alawites in Syria are imposing a system of apartheid on half of their citizens who live under military occupation, please show how.

The Alawites, in control and through the Baath regime, are monopolizing power and are indeed placing the rest of the country under permanent military occupation.
Its called a state of emergency, which the Syrian regime has had the entire country under it for the past 40 years; And I'm sure the massacres of the 80s, the purges of the 90s and early 2000s, and the recent war, is more than sufficient to show everyone what exactly happens when the people try to rise up and stand against this rule.






Don't worry, I've seen these videos before and seen their protests live.
And no one is really surprised by them really. Hezbollah is an ally of the Baathist and most Baathists who left Syria went to Hezbollah ruled areas, which means Syrians in those areas are supporters of Assad and the Baath regime.
Trying to put this as evidence of the Baath's popularity is like showing Nazis cheering Hitler and the German Nazi regime when it conquered much of Europe and was making active victories early in the war, they will cheer it and that doesn't mean it's suddenly good.
User avatar
By redcarpet
#14998972
anasawad wrote:@skinster
Tons available if any bothered searching for it; Furthermore, you can easily know the nature of Syria before the war from listening either to refugees escaping from it, or the causes of the revolution and early protests according to the opposition itself.
Syria is a fascist country by its own admission, and it is an apartheid state with the Alawites on top and everyone else at the bottom by anyone who knew anything about Syria before the war.


There is no apartheid state not run by jooooows and 'zionists' remember! Noooooo! And the occupation of the Palestinian terr. is the OOOOOONLY occupation...…(it's not, there's others, but they're not important!)
By Hindsite
#14999019
redcarpet wrote:There is no apartheid state not run by jooooows and 'zionists' remember! Noooooo! And the occupation of the Palestinian terr. is the OOOOOONLY occupation...…(it's not, there's others, but they're not important!)

What Palestinian territory? It doesn't exist.

Israel occupied the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the Six-Day War of 1967 and has since maintained control. Previously, these territories had been ruled by Jordan and Egypt, respectively, since the 1948 founding of Israel. In 1980, Israel officially absorbed East Jerusalem and has proclaimed the whole of Jerusalem to be its capital.
User avatar
By redcarpet
#14999133
Hindsite wrote:What Palestinian territory? It doesn't exist.

Israel occupied the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in the Six-Day War of 1967 and has since maintained control. Previously, these territories had been ruled by Jordan and Egypt, respectively, since the 1948 founding of Israel. In 1980, Israel officially absorbed East Jerusalem and has proclaimed the whole of Jerusalem to be its capital.


States don't unilaterally decide these things, anymore than you don't decide the border between your neighbour's property where you live
By Hindsite
#14999172
redcarpet wrote:States don't unilaterally decide these things, anymore than you don't decide the border between your neighbour's property where you live

Maybe, God decides.
Praise the Lord.
User avatar
By Ter
#14999500
Belarusian, North Korean missile engineers killed or injured in Israel’s air raid of Masyaf
The Israeli air strike on the Scientific Studies and Research Center in the Syrian town of Masyaf on Saturday, April 13, is reported by Western intelligence sources to have killed and wounded in addition to Iranian and Syrian military officers, a number foreign missile experts hired to upgrade their missiles. Among them were missile scientists from Belarus and North Korea who were employed in different departments of the large industrial complex outside Masyaf in western Syria. Those sources disclose that, whereas Israeli has raided the complex before, this time the attack was massive and, unlike before, gutted most of its installations. Especially targeted were the sections working on the upgrade of Syrian and Hizballah surface missiles, the production of solid fuel for those missiles and the departments focusing on installing new guidance instruments to enhance their precision. North Korean engineers were working on the production of solid fuel, while Belarusians were in the pay of Syria’s Organization of Technological Industries. Behind the fancy title is an organization that specializes in breaking the UN-US embargo against the employment of expert manpower in Syria’s military production and the sale of military hardware to the Assad regime. Most of the Belarussians working at Masyaf were provided by the Belvneshpromservice whose military ties with Damascus go back years. On Feb. 27, Israel struck Iran’s newly established command centers and weapons stores in Aleppo.

https://www.debka.com/belarusian-north- ... of-masyaf/

Israel keeps on breaking the Iranian sites in Syria.
No reaction from Syria or Iran.
By skinster
#14999584






anasawad wrote:@skinster
They forget a word in their definition; It's Arab *nationalism* and socialism.
Syria fits all the description of Fascism as expected, and almost nothing of socialism.


Since you believe this you can prove this using the internet, right? Asking people to read three books as an argument is a bit weird.

I did,3 books and a study explaining it in details,


As for the study about migration from Syria in the 50s or whatever the fuck I'm not even arguing with, that isn't proving what I'm asking for and what I'm quoting you as responding to, which is about how you think Syria has a system of apartheid a la Israel. Would you like to respond to what I'm actually saying?

and since you are one of the main defenders of Syria, you should take some time to read about Syria's regime pre-war.


Yes, I am a defender of Syria insofar as I'm opposed to imperialism and especially the jihadi/sectarian bullshit that was on display very quickly on that war on Syria. I am aware of the Assad dynasty and their governance as well as the conflicts they've had pre-2011 but what does this have to do with you saying Syria is an apartheid state like Israel?

Alawite monopoly on power in Syria is not a disputed fact, not even by Syrians.


Yes, they are the main sect in power but not the only one, there are plenty of Sunnis within the ruling class and the army itself is vastly majority Sunni and very patriotic.

Being infiltrated by outsiders doesn't change the fact that they happened.


Well it doesn't make it a revolution.

There was an uprising against the fascistic regime of the Baath party; Syria's enemies taking advantage of it to bring the regime, that has been constantly attacking all of its neighbors for decades, down is not a surprise.


It wasn't an uprising, it was various powerful states unleashing mercenaries on the country to do what they'd just done in Libya. Syria has been involved in war with its neighbours but it's also been very supportive of them too, which explains the Palestinian refugee camps that have been placed there for decades as well as Hezbollah's continous support for the Syrian government/army in this more recent and ongoing war.

Since nearly half of all Syria nationals are outside of Syria, many with no intention of returning, with a few 100s of thousands of Baathists who just won the war, on the dead bodies of over half a million people, and feel safe to return to the country.


Half of Syria's population don't live outside of Syria, not even a quarter do. Where are you getting this stuff from?

As for the 500,000+ Syrians killed in this war, I'd put the blame closer to the Western powers and regional Jihadi powers that made war on the state.

All the war, all the dead, and you still don't feel like the Baathist regime is filled with war criminals? isn't half a million dead enough to call war crimes? or should we wait till it reaches a million or two?


So this response is you responding to me saying this:

Israel imposing a system of apartheid on the Palestinians - the argument made by ZN - is not the same as Syrian politicians being war criminals, but if they are, please share how.

Which is a weird way to respond to what I said. :lol:

But OK. It's the Syrian government that are defending their state, you know the same one where Syrians from outside the country keep flocking back to, after the Syrian government/army has control of those areas that were once under the control of outsiders. There are still a few pockets that need to be liberated and I support the Syrian army taking back their land, as I do in the Golan.

Weird that you believe the 500K dead in Syria over this 8 year long war is the fault of the Syrian government. I guess the involvement of states that either funded, armed or sent mercenaries into the country have no blood on their hands even though they spent over a hundred billion - by the Americans alone - on this war? You know countries that were involved don't you? The United States, France, Britain, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Israel, Jordan, Turkey, the UAE...who am I missing? :?: This wasn't and isn't a war between Syrians v their government, this was another regime change war, which thankfully failed for the most part, despite the death and destruction involved.

The Alawites, in control and through the Baath regime, are monopolizing power and are indeed placing the rest of the country under permanent military occupation.


Even if we run with this idea, are you saying the Syrian government has forced its majority-Sunni army to impose a military occupation on the country's non-Alawites? Really, that's what you believe?

Don't worry, I've seen these videos before and seen their protests live.
And no one is really surprised by them really.


Right, I'm showing you the popular support Assad's government had in Lebanon - as well as Syria - at the last election.

Trying to put this as evidence of the Baath's popularity is like showing Nazis cheering Hitler and the German Nazi regime when it conquered much of Europe and was making active victories early in the war, they will cheer it and that doesn't mean it's suddenly good.


Too absurd to even respond to. :lol:
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