Syrian war thread - Page 188 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By skinster
#15032667
Palmyrene wrote:As in, you can oppose American imperialism in Syria via proxy wars while also simulateously condemning Assad for his actions towards the Syrian population.


What does this have anything to do with what I said to ZN?

If anything, you should be supporting the small amount of rebels who are self-governing and fighting for self-determination.


Which ones?

Look into Leila al-Shami's work for more info.


You mean the regime-changer British "aid worker" who doesn't use her real name, won't show her face, and whitewashed al-Qaeda's role in Idlib? Why should I look at her work? Maybe you'd like to share some of her work for me to look at?

I'm not taking the bait. The evidence I have surrounds me. I don't need to justify myself neither to you nor anyone else. You clearly aren't going to change your mind but I won't either. Any argument between us will be pointless.


There is no evidence to support the claim that the Syrian Army used chemical weapons in Syria but you enjoy that evidence that "surrounds" you, that you're unwilling to share. :D

MIT Study Further Destroys Washington’s Syria Chemical Weapons Claim
A new report (see article below) from America’s top engineering university, The Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), authored by former UN weapons inspector Richard Lloyd, and Professor Theodore Postol, further exposed how the US-UK-France chemical weapons case against the Assad regime in Syria last August — was a total and complete fraud, designed to trigger a green light for new western military operations in the region.
https://21stcenturywire.com/2014/01/20/ ... ons-claim/
By Palmyrene
#15032674
skinster wrote:What does this have anything to do with what I said to ZN?


It doesn't. It has to do with your whole thing that you're doing on this thread.

This thread is about the SCW, not just about what you said to ZN.

Which ones?


The most obvious ones are Daraya, a democratically-run rebel agricultural town which has been under siege by the regime for approximately 1, 368 days.

You mean the regime-changer who doesn't use her real name, won't show her face, and whitewashed al-Qaeda's role in Idlib? Why should I look at her work? Maybe you'd like to share some of her work for me to look at?


Considering that she advocates regime change and is Syrian, it's probably better not for her to show her face or her real name. Furthermore, to my knowledge, she's never actually whitewashed Islamist presence in Iblib. She's only focused on people in Iblib protesting Islamist occupation of their communities.

Also she has a blog. Just go there.

https://leilashami.wordpress.com/author/leilashami/

There is no evidence to support the claim that the Syrian Army used chemical weapons in Syria but you enjoy that evidence that "surrounds" you, that you're unwilling to share. :D


I'm not particularly interested in starting this debate. Your stances only reinforce the fact that we can't rely on the Western left to support us given how adamant you are that Assad's Syria was this wonderful place before America influenced it.

The worst thing about American influence isn't the bombings and instability but people like you suddenly dehumanizing the citzens of those countries for fighting against their oppression as if they have no agency at all. American influence makes protestors instantly the bad guys; it's basically victim blaming.
By skinster
#15032678
Palmyrene wrote:It doesn't. It has to do with your whole thing that you're doing on this thread.

This thread is about the SCW, not just about what you said to ZN.


Not sure what you're referring to in the first line and as for the second, you were responding to something I stated to ZN.

The most obvious ones are Daraya, a democratically-run rebel agricultural town which has been under siege by the regime for approximately 1, 368 days.


That's the name of a town, not a rebel group. I asked you to name which rebel groups you were telling me to support.

Considering that she advocates regime change and is Syrian, it's probably better not for her to show her face or her real name. Furthermore, to my knowledge, she's never actually whitewashed Islamist presence in Iblib. She's only focused on people in Iblib protesting Islamist occupation of their communities.


Actually, most of her focus is regime change on Syria. There are plenty of Syrian westerners who share their identity and oppose the SAA and government. She's probably a M16 shill. What about her work did you want to talk about?

Also she has a blog. Just go there.

https://leilashami.wordpress.com/author/leilashami/


I'm not going to read her entire blog as I don't even know why you mentioned her to me, if I'm to follow the discussion, did she prove that the Syrian army used chemical weapons?

I'm not particularly interested in starting this debate.


You already did when you stated the Syrian government used chemical weapons on Syria, even though James Mattis, the CIA and plenty of experts in weapons have stated otherwise. If the evidence "surrounds" you as you say, it's odd you have an inability to present it. This suggests you have none.

Your stances only reinforce the fact that we can't rely on the Western left to support us given how adamant you are that Assad's Syria was this wonderful place before America influenced it.


Actually, a lot of the "Western left" supported regime-change in Syria.

Lol at your weak argument though; opposing regime-change/imperialism doesn't equate to anyone thinking everything is Syria was wonderful before America started their dirty war here.

The worst thing about American influence isn't the bombings and instability but people like you suddenly dehumanizing the citzens of those countries for fighting against their oppression as if they have no agency at all. American influence makes protestors instantly the bad guys; it's basically victim blaming.


Lol, people like me who oppose war are worse than America's war on the country that's killed over 500K.

Your arguments are weak and suggesting that the SAA and government lack popular support, when in fact they have much more than all of the rebel groups combined, and that's why they won the war. Opposition fighters would've been successful if they had the support of the people, but people in Syria quickly saw what they were and backed the government and their family inside of the army instead.
By Palmyrene
#15032683
skinster wrote:Not sure what you're referring to in the first line and as for the second, you were responding to something I stated to ZN.


I wasn't.

That's the name of a town, not a rebel group. I asked you to name which rebel groups you were telling me to support.


It's the name of a town that's full of rebel. They have their own councils, communes, etc. so they're practically their own organization.

No, I was telling you to support rebels not a specific rebel group.

Actually, most of her focus is regime change on Syria.


I was referring to your claim that she ignored Islamist influence in Iblib. That is wrong, she just focused on people protesting against Islamists in Iblib which is not a denial at all.

There are plenty of Syrian westerners who share their identity and oppose the SAA and government. She's probably a M16 shill. What about her work did you want to talk about?


Yeah definitely the M16 has influence in Syria :roll:.

If she was a westerner then she wouldn't have a reason to not show her face or real name.

I'm not going to read her entire blog as I don't even know why you mentioned her to me, if I'm to follow the discussion, did she prove that the Syrian army used chemical weapons?


I mentioned her because she discusses the rebel movement in Syria and distinguishes them from the Islamists. Thus, you can understand exactly who you're supposed to be rooting for.

You already did when you stated the Syrian government used chemical weapons on Syria, even though James Mattis, the CIA and plenty of experts in weapons have stated otherwise. If the evidence "surrounds" you as you say, it's odd you have an inability to present it. This suggests you have none.


I'm not referring to chemical weapons wtf are you talking about?

Assad bombs his own people. End of discussion.

Did you think killing off dissenting people and taking over the country was a bloodless affair that didn't hurt any Syrian civilian?

Actually, a lot of the "Western left" supported regime-change in Syria.


No, not really. I've found more peoppe defending Assad than supporting regime change. The only people who supported regime change were conservatives.

Lol at your weak argument though; opposing regime-change/imperialism doesn't equate to anyone thinking everything is Syria was wonderful before America started their dirty war here.


Supporting Syrian self determination isn't regime change nor is it imperialism. No one said the US had to be the ones to change things.

Your claim my argument was a false equivalence when you state one directly in your post.

Lol, people like me who oppose war and imperialism are worse than America's war on the country that's killed over 500K.


People like you who defend Assad and demonize regular Syrians who fight back against their oppression as being all American agents are worse. It just makes gaining support harder for Syrians.

You yourself are the result of American influence in Syria though. If America hadn't invaded Syria this conversation wouldn't be happening. You wouldn't be claiming that all Syrian protesters were double agents.

Your arguments are weak.


Is that really the best insult you can come up with? :lol:
By skinster
#15032690
Palmyrene wrote:I wasn't.


Yes you were. I was responding to ZN crying on behalf of Islamists in Syria and you decided to respond to that by telling me that one can hate on the Islamists and the president of Syria too and...I guess that is it?

It's the name of a town that's full of rebel. They have their own councils, communes, etc. so they're practically their own organization.

No, I was telling you to support rebels not a specific rebel group.


Which rebels? Who are these people? What's the name of their org? If you can't even name them, you might struggle to find people to support them.

I was referring to your claim that she ignored Islamist influence in Iblib. That is wrong, she just focused on people protesting against Islamists in Iblib which is not a denial at all.


She is a regime-changer who was whitewashing Islamist groups in favour of demonising the Syrian government/army.

Yeah definitely the M16 has influence in Syria :roll:.


Google 'Jams Le Musurier' to begin with, the guy who made "White Helmets" a thing.

I'll share others after.

If she was a westerner then she wouldn't have a reason to not show her face or real name.


Exactly my point.

I mentioned her because she discusses the rebel movement in Syria and distinguishes them from the Islamists. Thus, you can understand exactly who you're supposed to be rooting for.


So which rebel groups does she support that I'm supposed to be paying attention to?

I'm not referring to chemical weapons wtf are you talking about?


So when you said:

Palmyrene wrote:Assad's a blah blah blah...

Also he gasses his own ppl by the way.


What are you referring to?

Assad bombs his own people. End of discussion.


It's the Syrian army that's been doing the bombing (alongside its allies) and yes, innocent people have died in the process. But how else did you expect the SAA to fight this war? :?:

I don't support the murder of innocents, but my feeleys aren't going to change how the Syrian army decides to liberate its country from foreign influence.

Did you think killing off dissenting people and taking over the country was a bloodless affair that didn't hurt any Syrian civilian?


Don't recall saying anything like that. You keep moving from shit argument to shit argument. If you're going to accuse me of things, quote me instead of sharing what you imagine.

No, not really. I've found more peoppe defending Assad than supporting regime change. The only people who supported regime change were conservatives.


Well, having lived in America and the UK during the war, trust me, the so-called left in the West was very much pro war. You can see that in this thread throughout. Media Lens' book Propaganda Blitz covers the war coverage of Syria from left-liberal papers like The Guardian, The Independent etc., they were all pro war.

You must've been around 10 years old when this was happening, so perhaps you have false memories.

And actually, conservatives were opposed to the war, particularly in the U.S., those who supported Trump because of his opposition to war on Syria, compared to that of Clinton who was pro destroying the country just as she did with Libya (advocating for a No Fly Zone etc.) in direct confrontation with Russia.

Supporting Syrian self determination isn't regime change nor is it imperialism.


The war on Syria was a war for regime change, denying that is absurd at this stage of the game. Unlike the same in Iraq and Libya and elsewhere, this one has failed.

No one said the US had to be the ones to change things.


:eh:

Your claim my argument was a false equivalence when you state one directly in your post.


:eh:

People like you who defend Assad and demonize regular Syrians who fight back against their oppression as being all American agents are worse.


I know your arguments are weak sauce, but can you at least go by the things I say, rather than pulling shit out of your ass?

It just makes gaining support harder for Syrians.


Uh-huh...

You yourself are the result of American influence in Syria though.


:eh:

If America hadn't invaded Syria this conversation wouldn't be happening.


Uh-huh. :?:

You wouldn't be claiming that all Syrian protesters were double agents.


Quote where I said that.

Is that really the best insult you can come up with? :lol:


It wasn't an insult, it was an observation (that your arguments are weak).
By Palmyrene
#15032696
skinster wrote:Yes you were. I was responding to ZN crying on behalf of Islamists in Syria and you decided to respond to that by telling me that one can hate on the Islamists and the president of Syria too and...I guess that is it?


It wasn't related to that.

Which rebels? Who are these people? What's the name of their org? If you can't even name them, you might struggle to find people to support them.


I did, the people of Daraya. This is another example of you removing the agency of regular Syrians. You're determined to make sure that the people of Daraya have no voice or anything.

She is a regime-changer who was whitewashing Islamist groups in favour of demonising the Syrian government/army.


I've read her work and she has never done that at all. This is just you associating "rebels" with Islamists.

Google 'Jams Le Musurier' to begin with, the guy who made "White Helmets" a thing.


The White Helmets have nothing to do with Leila al-Shami.

Exactly my point.


Which means she's Syrian. I don't see how that's your point because you seem to be pushing that she's a Westerner but she clearly isn't and you agree with that.

So which rebel groups does she support that I'm supposed to be paying attention to?


They're not groups, they're rebels. Stuff like Daraya, the people in Iblib protesting Islamist policies and occupation or forming syndicates, etc.

So when you said:



What are you referring to?


I was just joking. I don't really put much effort into debating @Rich because he isn't worth it.

It's the Syrian army that's been doing the bombing (alongside its allies) and yes, innocent people have died in the process. But how else did you expect the SAA to fight this war? :?:


They're fighting a war against their own people. Don't pretend that it's all American imperialism. The Syrian Civil War didn't start because of America. Arab Spring didn't start because of America.

Your own refusal to support anything other than the status quo is what makes your arguments fall on no ears but the Arab bourgeoise.

I don't support the murder of innocents, but my feeleys aren't going to change how the Syrian army decides to liberate its country from foreign influence.


Syrians protesting for a better existence isn't foreign. Foreignity is not determined by loyalty to the state.

You don't ignore the grievances of the population and call anyone who disagrees with you an American puppet.

And it's because of Assad that Russian and Iranian influence is in Syria. Furthermore, they're still American military influence in Syria so now we have three countries with military prescence in our country.

Don't recall you saying that. You keep moving from shit argument to shit argument.


? I just did say it? Wtf are you even trying to say?

Well, having lived in America and the UK during the war, trust me, the so-called left in the West was very much pro war. You can see that in this thread throughout. Media Lens' book Propaganda Blitz covers the war coverage of Syria from left-liberal papers like The Guardian, The Independent etc., they were all pro war.


I'm not talking about liberals. I'm talking about actual leftists.

You must've been around 10 years old when this was happening, so perhaps you have false memories.


I don't have false memories because I've looked back at American publications of the war during the time and talked to leftist Americans online so clearly this isn't the case.

And actually, conservatives were opposed to the war, particularly in the U.S., where one of Trump's winning slogans was his opposition to war on Syria.


Opposition to regime change occurred only during the Trump era. Establishment Republicans and Republicans before that were pro-war. They were the initial people to push for war.

The war on Syria was a war for regime change, denying that is absurd at this stage of the game. Unlike the same in Iraq and Libya and elsewhere, this one has failed.


Pretending that Syrians revolting against their government is foreign regime change is insidious. You're only proving why we can't rely on Westerners to support us.

:eh:


You oppose overthrowing Assad because you assume the US would be the one's to do it.

:eh:


Do I need to spell everything out for you.

I know your arguments are weak sauce, but can you at least go by the things I say, rather than pulling shit out of your ass?


I know what you say because I've skimmed through this thread before and have generally got a jist about what you're on about.

Uh-huh...


Of course you don't care about Syrian self-determination. Sorry I forgot.

Quote where I said that.


Considering how you believe any Syrian opposing the government is either an Islamist or a double agent and how you believe that the Hong Kong protests are all American creations, I've got enough external info to say that you do believe that.

It wasn't an insult, it was an observation (that your arguments are weak).


Oh then I'll make an observation as well: whenever a protest or civil uprising occurs in an anti-American country, you're quick to defend the state and condemn the protesters. When the country's pro-American, you're quick to support the protesters and condemn the state.

Why is that?
By skinster
#15032716
Palmyrene wrote:It wasn't related to that.


Yes it was and anyone reading this thread can see that.

I did, the people of Daraya. This is another example of you removing the agency of regular Syrians. You're determined to make sure that the people of Daraya have no voice or anything.


The people of Daraya are not a rebel group. And you're accusing me of removing the agency of regular Syrians while dismissing the support for the government and army amongst the people in Daraya.

I've read her work and she has never done that at all. This is just you associating "rebels" with Islamists.


You act as though I've never heard of this woman before. If you want to trust her blog on anything, that's your problem.

The White Helmets have nothing to do with Leila al-Shami.


This is you being dishonest again. I responded to you scoffing at the idea that British intelligence is involved in war on Syria and pointed out someone who works for British intelligence who is also the man behind White Helmets.

Which means she's Syrian. I don't see how that's your point because you seem to be pushing that she's a Westerner but she clearly isn't and you agree with that.


:eh:

She's a Brit-Syrian, claiming to be an "aid-worker", is pro regime change and we don't know much more about her except the name she gives isn't her real name and we don't really know where she lives or anything.

They're not groups, they're rebels. Stuff like Daraya, the people in Iblib protesting Islamist policies and occupation or forming syndicates, etc.


I'll just take this as you not being able to name these rebels you want people to support.

I was just joking. I don't really put much effort into debating @Rich


How odd, because you were claiming not long after that something about the evidence you had to prove what you said "surrounded" you or something.

OK, so I'll accept you conceding that the Syrian government didn't use chemical weapons on its people like the psychopathic "moderate rebels".

They're fighting a war against their own people.


How odd then that the vast majority of the Syrian people consistently flocked to the areas that were controlled by the army/government or liberated by the army/government throughout the war.

Don't pretend that it's all American imperialism.


I don't, I gave a list of the countries involved.

Your own refusal to support anything other than the status quo is what makes your arguments fall on no ears but the Arab bourgeoise.


:D

Syrians protesting for a better existence isn't foreign. Foreignity is not determined by loyalty to the state.


1. I think you made up a word here.
2. I'll ignore this since I don't know what it is I said that makes you think any of the above.

You don't ignore the grievances of the population and call anyone who disagrees with you an American puppet.


I'll ignore this since I don't know what it is I said that makes you think any of the above.

And it's because of Assad that Russian and Iranian influence is in Syria.


Well yeah, duh. Syria asked her allies to help defend herself from foreign aggression. She as a soverign state is entitled to such and also, it was a good thing.

Furthermore, they're still American military influence in Syria so now we have three countries with military prescence in our country.


Turkey is also occupying land in the north. There is a difference between those countries that were invited by the Syrian government and those that weren't. One is legal and the other isn't.

? I just did say it? Wtf are you even trying to say?


I said I don't recall saying that thing you were accusing me of, that the war was bloodless or some shit. Are you high?

I'm not talking about liberals. I'm talking about actual leftists.


Yeah, actual leftists opposed the war on Syria because actual leftists oppose wars of aggression. But their numbers in media were small and really nothing compared to the liberals/conservatives who were claiming the war was for democracy/freedom or whatever. Especially in the first 3 or 4 years of the war.

I don't have false memories because I've looked back at American publications of the war during the time and talked to leftist Americans online so clearly this isn't the case.


Yes, the leftist position was opposed to the regime-change war - duh - but again, they didn't have much of a voice in media compared to the liberal/conservative view. What changed mainly was that the "moderate rebels" began showing themselves to be fascists, promoting sectarianism amongst a secular state and barbarically killing ordinary Syrians for not confirming to their worldview.

Anyway, nobody believes you're 16. I'm not even sure you're Syrian at this point. You might be a fraud like "Leila Al-Shami" for all I know...

Opposition to regime change occurred only during the Trump era. Establishment Republicans and Republicans before that were pro-war. They were the initial people to push for war.


Opposition to regime-change preceded the Trump era. Particularly people in the military; I remember in the earlier years there were tons of American soldiers going online, covering their faces, dressed in gay army clothes, stating they didn't want to be involved in a war on Syria.

Pretending that Syrians revolting against their government is foreign regime change is insidious. You're only proving why we can't rely on Westerners to support us.


I didn't say anything about the Syrian protests. I said the war on Syria was a regime-change war and you making a strawman out of that because you're dishonest.

Lol @ the Westerners support for "us". If you're in the pro-regime-change version of Syrians, like that phoney Leile al-Shami, then I don't care about you. There are plenty of Syrians who oppose the foreigners making war on them and that's who I'm with. You act like they don't exist but the vast majority of Syrians support their government and army.

You oppose overthrowing Assad because you assume the US would be the one's to do it.


I'd support it if it came from the people rather than neoconservatism/wahabism/zionist/etc.

Do I need to spell everything out for you.


That was my way of stating I don't know what you mean when you say:

You yourself are the result of American influence in Syria though.


Considering how you believe any Syrian opposing the government is either an Islamist or a double agent and how you believe that the Hong Kong protests are all American creations, I've got enough external info to say that you do believe that.


I don't recall saying anything about "any Syrian blah blah" and I'll ignore the off-topic stuff, even though I'm correct about those protests being influenced by America.

Oh then I'll make an observation as well: whenever a protest or civil uprising occurs in an anti-American country, you're quick to defend the state and condemn the protesters. When the country's pro-American, you're quick to support the protesters and condemn the state.


Which anti-American country? China isn't anti-American. Syria was actually working with the Americans on some awful things pre the war.

Also, I don't really think you made much sense in that observation.

Why is that?


Why do I take the positons I do? From reading stuff, you know, like you.
By Palmyrene
#15032729
skinster wrote:Yes it was and anyone reading this thread can see that.


It wasn't. I know what the intentions of my post was.

The people of Daraya are not a rebel group. And you're accusing me of removing the agency of regular Syrians while dismissing the support for the government and army amongst the people in Daraya.


They don't support the government considering that they literally rebelled against and fought them. Do you know anything about Daraya?

You act as though I've never heard of this woman before. If you want to trust her blog on anything, that's your problem.


You think that a Syrian who criticizes the government is suspicious for hiding her identity even though she lives in Syria?

This is you being dishonest again. I responded to you scoffing at the idea that British intelligence is involved in war on Syria and pointed out someone who works for British intelligence who is also the man behind White Helmets.


Oh shit you're right my bad.

But you also said that Leila is part of the M16 which is laughable at best.


:eh:

She's a Brit-Syrian, claiming to be an "aid-worker", is pro regime change and we don't know much more about her except the name she gives isn't her real name and we don't really know where she lives or anything


How do you even know she's Brit?

And I'm basing this on what you said. You agreed with me that it makes sense for a Syrian criticizing the government to hide their identity.

I'll just take this as you not being able to name these rebels you want people to support.


I did name them. The people of Daraya. You just have no idea what I'm talking about.

Like, this is the equivalent of saying that Rojava aren't rebels because they're a nation and not a "rebel group".

You seem to very narrowly define what a rebel is for some reason.

How odd, because you were claiming not long after that something about the evidence you had to prove what you said "surrounded" you or something.


It was metaphorical.

OK, so I'll accept you conceding that the Syrian government didn't use chemical weapons on its people like the psychopathic "moderate rebels".


?

How odd then that the vast majority of the Syrian people consistently flocked to the areas that were controlled by the army/government or liberated by the army/government throughout the war.


Considering that the choice was between either death by the government, death by Islamists, or keeping their ground, I think it's obvious why. The revolution has basically beem coopted by counter-revolutionary forces by this point.

I don't, I gave a list of the countries involved.


Then you must include Syria as well.

1. I think you made up a word here.
2. I'll ignore this since I don't know what it is I said that makes you think any of the above.


1. It's not my fault English is irregular. If something like sovereignity is allowed then foreignity is allowed too.
2. You're just being intentional obtuse here.


I'll ignore this since I don't know what it is I said that makes you think any of the above.


Well it's things you've said earlier.

Well yeah, duh. Syria asked her allies to help defend herself from foreign aggression. She as a soverign state is entitled to such and also, it was a good thing.


No it isn't, states are entitled to nothing. Syria is a dictatorship and does not operate upon the consent of the people. Russia and Iran don't care about Syria, they only care about their own interests. Assad only let them in because he was desperate and was afraid he would lose power.

Of course you don't really care about that, nor do you care about the state of Syria after the war.

Turkey is also occupying land in the north. There is a difference between those countries that were invited by the Syrian government and those that weren't. One is legal and the other isn't.


Something being "legal" doesn't make it right.

You don't seem to care about any of this.

I said I don't recall saying that thing you were accusing me of, that the war was bloodless or some shit. Are you high?


I wasn't accusing you of anything, I just asked a rhetorical question. Nothing everything is an accusation.

Yeah, actual leftists opposed the war on Syria because actual leftists oppose wars of aggression. But their numbers in media were small and really nothing compared to the liberals/conservatives who were claiming the war was for democracy/freedom or whatever. Especially in the first 3 or 4 years of the war.


It wasn't just opposing the war, it resulted in the demonization of all rebels as just American puppets which didn't help the Syrian cause at all.

Yes, the leftist position was opposed to the regime-change war - duh - but again, they didn't have much of a voice in media compared to the liberal/conservative view. What changed mainly was that the "moderate rebels" began showing themselves to be fascists, promoting sectarianism amongst a secular state and barbarically killing ordinary Syrians for not confirming to their worldview.


Which leads me to the point I had in the beginning, you can oppose US backed Islamists while also supporting actual rebels.

Anyway, nobody believes you're 16. I'm not even sure you're Syrian at this point. You might be a fraud like "Leila Al-Shami" for all I know...


Yeah I'm actually a 50 year old CIA agent with elephantitis.

I feel like me being 16 is the most believable part of all of this no?

I didn't say anything about the Syrian protests. I said the war on Syria was a regime-change war and you making a strawman out of that because you're dishonest.


Ok, you know what? I need you to define regime-change. Like, would you call the French Revolution regime change or what the US did in Iran regime change.

Lol @ the Westerners support for "us". If you're in the pro-regime-change version of Syrians, like that phoney Leile al-Shami, then I don't care about you. There are plenty of Syrians who oppose the foreigners making war on them and that's who I'm with. You act like they don't exist but the vast majority of Syrians support their government and army.


1. I don't want foreigners to come in and institute their own government. I want to start my own revolution without foreign interference.

2. The only people by this point who actually support the government (and don't just pretend so that they don't get killed) are the upper class.

Even the middle class (or what remains of a middle class) absolutely hates the destruction caused by the Civil War including by Assad.

I'd support it if it came from the people rather than neoconservatism/wahabism/zionist/etc.


Yeah, that's what it started as. That's what Daraya is and, to some extent, Rojava is.

Pretending that "there are no other options" so you can justify your support for Assad is ridiculous.

That was my way of stating I don't know what you mean when you say:


Yeah, like I said:

Do I need to spell everything out for you


I don't recall saying anything about "any Syrian blah blah" and I'll ignore the off-topic stuff, even though I'm correct about those protests being influenced by America.


None of it off-topic. This isn't just a conversation about Syria, it's about your entire agenda of which is highly contradictory.

Also they aren't influenced by America. HKers holding America signs isn't proof.

Which anti-American country? China isn't anti-American. Syria was actually working with the Americans on some awful things pre the war.

Also, I don't really think you made much sense in that observation.


Well, it certainly comes across like that. You support China despite it putting Muslims in concentration camps, fucking Tibet, and making Pakistan it's vassal.

Why do I take the positons I do? From reading stuff, you know, like you.


People have a tendency to read what they like. You are no different.
By skinster
#15032731
Palmyrene wrote:It wasn't. I know what the intentions of my post was.


So do I. And so does anyone who's reading this.

They don't support the government considering that they literally rebelled against and fought them. Do you know anything about Daraya?


I know there are people in Dayaya who support their government. My friend, activist Hadi Nasrallah, was in Daraya earlier this year and tried to share this information with people like you but ended up getting ignored.


You think that a Syrian who criticizes the government is suspicious for hiding her identity even though she lives in Syria?


How do you know "Leila al-Shami" lives in Syria? Citation needed.

Oh shit you're right my bad.

But you also said that Leila is part of the M16 which is laughable at best.


I didn't say that. But her being a spook is as legit as saying the same about the one-man-band known as the "Syrian Observatory of Human Rights"

Anyway, at least you're no longer scoffing at Brit intelligence involvement on the war on Syria after I pointed out how that's a thing.

How do you even know she's Brit?


She states this on some of the media orgs she writes for. :roll:

It was metaphorical.


You claiming you had evidence is now you being "metaphorical". :D

?


I said I'll accept you accusing the government of using chemical weapons / gassing their own people to be incorrect.

Considering that the choice was between either death by the government, death by Islamists, or keeping their ground, I think it's obvious why. The revolution has basically beem coopted by counter-revolutionary forces by this point.


Or a lot of Syrians support their government.

Then you must include Syria as well.


Syria didn't make war on Syria.

1. It's not my fault English is irregular. If something like sovereignity is allowed then foreignity is allowed too.
2. You're just being intentional obtuse here.


1. You're still making up a word.
2. You need to quote what I say rather than what you imagine I said.

No it isn't, states are entitled to nothing. Syria is a dictatorship and does not operate upon the consent of the people. Russia and Iran don't care about Syria, they only care about their own interests. Assad only let them in because he was desperate and was afraid he would lose power.


Actually they are entitled to call on allies while under attack.

All states act in their interests and can have similar interests.

Of course you don't really care about that, nor do you care about the state of Syria after the war.


I believe I'm one of the few people who keep sharing updates on Syria on this board. Most of the regime-changers, including you, pretty much left after it was clear you lost your war, despite the war being ongoing.

I wasn't accusing you of anything, I just asked a rhetorical question. Nothing everything is an accusation.


:D

It wasn't just opposing the war, it resulted in the demonization of all rebels as just American puppets which didn't help the Syrian cause at all.


It was the rebels mainly not being Syrian that "didn't help the Syrian cause at all".

Which leads me to the point I had in the beginning, you can oppose US backed Islamists while also supporting actual rebels.


Which ones?

Yeah I'm actually a 50 year old CIA agent with elephantitis.

I feel like me being 16 is the most believable part of all of this no?


Nope, nobody believes you're 16 either.

Ok, you know what? I need you to define regime-change. Like, would you call the French Revolution regime change or what the US did in Iran regime change.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... ime_change

1. I don't want foreigners to come in and institute their own government. I want to start my own revolution without foreign interference.


Good luck. :D

2. The only people by this point who actually support the government (and don't just pretend so that they don't get killed) are the upper class.


Citation needed.

Pretending that "there are no other options" so you can justify your support for Assad is ridiculous.


What are they?

None of it off-topic. This isn't just a conversation about Syria, it's about your entire agenda of which is highly contradictory.


Actually it's pretty consistent. :D

Also they aren't influenced by America. HKers holding America signs isn't proof.


OK let's ignore the NED's millions poured into the pockets of orgs leading the protest. :D

Well, it certainly comes across like that. You support China despite it putting Muslims in concentration camps, fucking Tibet, and making Pakistan it's vassal.


I already pointed out how that's false.

People have a tendency to read what they like. You are no different.


So stop being a baby about someone taking a different view to you based on what they read, you fucking weirdo. :lol:
By Palmyrene
#15032736
skinster wrote:So do I. And so does anyone who's reading this.


Clearly you don't if I've said several times that your assumption was wrong.

I know there are people in Dayaya who support their government. My friend, activist Hadi Nasrallah, was in Daraya earlier this year and tried to share this information with people like you but ended up getting ignored.


Considering that most of the people in Daraya were kicked out and the only ones who could stay were people who publicly professed support of the state I'm going to say that they're either lying (given that the entire town basically seceded from the government) or she didn't talk to the locals at all. This is especially given how the army directly occupies the town.

It's like pointing a gun to someone and saying that they agree with you. Of course they do, you put a gun to their head.

This is also why any polls in the Middle East might not be entirely truthful because of the extensive amounts of surveillance that goes on in those countries.

How do you know "Leila al-Shami" lives in Syria? Citation needed.


I said that it makes sense for someone living in Syria to hide their identity. I never claimed that she does.

I didn't say that. But her being a spook is as legit as saying the same about the one-man-band known as the "Syrian Observatory of Human Rights"


No, it really isn't.

Anyway, at least you're no longer scoffing at Brit intelligence involvement on the war on Syria after I pointed out how that's a thing.


Yeah I'm not.

She states this on some of the media orgs she writes for. :roll:


If she directly works in Syria (which she must given the info she has), then it's better if the government doesn't know about her.

You claiming you had evidence is now you being "metaphorical". :D


:facepalm:

If I said "my evidence is what surrounds me" then that's clearly being metaphorical. It doesn't mean my evidence literally surrounds me.

What? Do you think when someone says it's raining cats and dogs that it's actually raining cats and dogs?

I said I'll accept you accusing the government of using chemical weapons / gassing their own people to be incorrect.


I mean it was a joke obviously.

Or a lot of Syrians support their government.


If I put a gun to your head and told you to say "I like nachos" and you said this, does that mean you actually like nachos?

Heck, if someone came to my house and asked me whether I supported Assad I would say "hell yeah!" because I don't want my nails ripped out.

Syria didn't make war on Syria.


Yeah it did. The protesters were Syrian and the protests weren't foreign intervention unless you would call droughts foreign intervention.

1. You're still making up a word.
2. You need to quote what I say rather than what you imagine I said.


1. Doesn't matter. All words at some point were made up.

2. I didn't imagine. I already got your whole schtick figured out.

Actually they are entitled to call on allies while under attack.

All states act in their interests and can have similar interests.


1. No, they aren't. No one is "entitled" to anything and certainly not states.

2. For starters, Syria is basically Assad's private property so it isn't Syria calling Russia and Iran, it's Assad.

Remember Assad is the one who broke down protesters who criticized his regime, not Syria.

I believe I'm one of the few people who keep sharing updates on Syria on this board. Most of the regime-changers, including you, pretty much left after it was clear you lost your war, despite the war being ongoing.


You share pro-Assadist stuff so it's not like it's accurate. You convey a particular picture. It's more akin to hasbara than anything. Did Assad give you an app which gives you bitcoin if you post 5 pro-government pics?

Do you know what regime change is? And only very recently did I even become an anarchist in the first place and I'd rather not leave my own country. Revolution isn't foreign intervention. Are you daft?

It was the rebels mainly not being Syrian that "didn't help the Syrian cause at all".


Islamists aren't the only rebels. I think we both know that. Not everyone who opposes the government is a foreigner.

Which ones?


I just listed them.

Nope, nobody believes you're 16 either.


I'm pretty sure more people believe that than me being Syrian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change


Yeah I guess you think any Syrians opposing their government is some American plot. You just keep on proving why foreigners suck so much.

Good luck. :D


I'm absolutely sure you'll either love me or hate me if I start a revolution. Because I'll be overthrowing Assad but also ending Israel and every other country in the Middle East.

Citation needed.


I'm the citation. Whether you take or not is up to you.

What are they?


I just told you. I'm also an option btw.

Actually it's pretty consistent. :D


Hating anything America hates isn't consistent because you lead to situations where you support self determination but think that HKers doing protests is foreign influence.

OK let's ignore the NED's millions poured into the pockets of orgs leading the protest. :D


Yes, let's do that because it honestly doesn't effect the actual protesters nor is it their motivation for protesting.

Every country tries to take advantage of instability in another. Doesn't mean that the protesters are paid actors or something. The grievances are legitimate.

I already pointed out how that's false.


The amount evidence from actual Uighurs living in the US or other countries attempting to communicate with their relatives disproves this entirely.

So stop being a baby about someone taking a different view to you based on what they read, you fucking weirdo. :lol:


:lol: Are you seriously in denial that you do in fact have an agenda? It's rather obvious to anyone who reads your stuff outside of Palestine. Like you seem ok until you see your posts on HK or Uighurs.
By skinster
#15032741
Palmyrene wrote:Clearly you don't if I've said several times that your assumption was wrong.


It's not an assumption. You asked me something directly related to what I stated to ZN.

Considering that most of the people in Daraya were kicked out and the only ones who could stay were people who publicly professed support of the state I'm going to say that they're either lying (given that the entire town basically seceded from the government) or she didn't talk to the locals at all. This is especially given how the army directly occupies the town.


Weird you're "from Syria" and think Hadi is the name of a her. :D

It's like pointing a gun to someone and saying that they agree with you. Of course they do, you put a gun to their head.


Nice that you paid attention to what Oz Katerji stated in that thread and are now using that as an argument. :D

I said that it makes sense for someone living in Syria to hide their identity. I never claimed that she does.


We don't know where she lives. We don't know if she's a real person. This is someone you get your info from, btw, but you don't seem to know much about her. :D

No, it really isn't.


Yes, it is. There were plenty of people promoting the regime-change position, like SOHR, who nobody trusts.

Yeah I'm not.


Good, then you accept British intelligence is involved in the war on Syria, something you can't dispute after I showed you how that's a thing.

If she directly works in Syria (which she must given the info she has), then it's better if the government doesn't know about her.


Nobody knows where she's based.

:facepalm:

If I said "my evidence is what surrounds me" then that's clearly being metaphorical. It doesn't mean my evidence literally surrounds me.


Ok. :lol:

What? Do you think when someone says it's raining cats and dogs that it's actually raining cats and dogs?


When someone claims "Assad is gassing his own people" and then states the "evidence surrounds me", it means what they're claiming is true. But OK, you were "being metaphorical". :D

I mean it was a joke obviously.


OK, now it's a "joke" that the Syrian army was gassing its own people.

2. For starters, Syria is basically Assad's private property so it isn't Syria calling Russia and Iran, it's Assad.


:lol:

Remember Assad is the one who broke down protesters who criticized his regime, not Syria.


Remember the "moderate rebels" were shooting at cops during the initial protests that made them not seem very legit at all.

You share pro-Assadist stuff so it's not like it's accurate. You convey a particular picture. It's more akin to hasbara than anything. Did Assad give you an app which gives you bitcoin if you post 5 pro-government pics?


Ha at you pretending only me thinks this way.

Do you know what regime change is?


It was you demanding a definition and I gave you one.

Islamists aren't the only rebels. I think we both know that. Not everyone who opposes the government is a foreigner.


Which rebel groups do you support then? You seem to be struggling at naming them.

I just listed them.


You named no rebel groups.

I'm pretty sure more people believe that than me being Syrian.


I'm pretty sure nobody believes you're 16 and right now, I don't believe you're Syrian.

Yeah I guess you think any Syrians opposing their government is some American plot. You just keep on proving why foreigners suck so much.


:lol:


I'm absolutely sure you'll either love me or hate me if I start a revolution. Because I'll be overthrowing Assad but also ending Israel and every other country in the Middle East.


:lol:

I'm the citation. Whether you take or not is up to you.


Your opinion is not evidence for anything.

I just told you. I'm also an option btw.


:D

Hating anything America hates isn't consistent because you lead to situations where you support self determination but think that HKers doing protests is foreign influence.


I've cited how HK organizers are funded by the U.S., if you want to argue otherwise, prove it. Preferably in the on-topic thread.

The amount evidence from actual Uighurs living in the US or other countries attempting to communicate with their relatives disproves this entirely.


Citation needed, preferably in the on-topic thread.

:lol: Are you seriously in denial that you do in fact have an agenda? It's rather obvious to anyone who reads your stuff outside of Palestine. Like you seem ok until you see your posts on HK or Uighurs.


Uh-huh. If I have an "agenda", everyone posting here has the same. But what's your point?
By Palmyrene
#15032773
skinster wrote:It's not an assumption. You asked me something directly related to what I stated to ZN.


I didn't even quote you.

Weird you're "from Syria" and think Hadi is the name of a her. :D


The only Hadi I actually personally know is a girl so I assumed the same would be for your friend.

Nice that you paid attention to what Oz Katerji stated in that thread and are now using that as an argument. :D


Who the hell is Oz?

We don't know where she lives. We don't know if she's a real person. This is someone you get your info from, btw, but you don't seem to know much about her. :D


I think her info is valid given how comprehensive it is.

Yes, it is. There were plenty of people promoting the regime-change position, like SOHR, who nobody trusts.


?

That's not what I was talking about.

Good, then you accept British intelligence is involved in the war on Syria, something you can't dispute after I showed you how that's a thing.


Ok, and?

Nobody knows where she's based.


All I'm saying is that pointing to her lack of revealing her identity isn't really evidence.

Ok. :lol:


*sigh*

When someone claims "Assad is gassing his own people" and then states the "evidence surrounds me", it means what they're claiming is true. But OK, you were "being metaphorical". :D


The fact that the whole gassing people thing was a joke should've tipped you off.

OK, now it's a "joke" that the Syrian army was gassing its own people.


No, that wasn't the joke. It was the context around the statement that made it a joke.

:lol:


Nothing I said here is wrong.

Remember the "moderate rebels" were shooting at cops during the initial protests that made them not seem very legit at all.


Ah yes, I too like to generalize the entirety of the protesters.

Regardless I don't know why you're siding with the mukhabarat. They were the most brutal oppressors of the regime. I doubt you would blame protesters for fighting against them.

Ha at you pretending only me thinks this way.


Well obviously not. There's a reason why the Western left is so utterly useless when it comes to Syria.

It was you demanding a definition and I gave you one.


You gave me a list of regime changes inacted by the US. That isn't a definition habibi.

Which rebel groups do you support then? You seem to be struggling at naming them.


:|

I did. Several times.

You named no rebel groups.


Yes I did. Daraya is a rebel organization because it is rebelling against the statement.

Rebel group =/= militia or Islamist.

I'm pretty sure nobody believes you're 16 and right now, I don't believe you're Syrian.


I am 16. I thought that was extremely obvious.

And you don't believe I'm Syrian only because I disagree with you.

:lol:




:lol:


You don't seem to have anything to say.

Your opinion is not evidence for anything.


It's not my opinion.

I've cited how HK organizers are funded by the U.S., if you want to argue otherwise, prove it. Preferably in the on-topic thread.


That's a different assertion from stating that HK protests are for no reason.

Regardless of whether the US funds them or not, the core goal of the protests is to get rid of Chinese influence. End of discussion.

These protests might benefit the U.S. but it isn't a Syria situation.

Citation needed, preferably in the on-topic thread.


I'm pretty sure you'll just call those Uighurs paid actors or something anyways. It's not worth it.

Uh-huh. If I have an "agenda", everyone posting here has the same. But what's your point?


My point is that it's inconsistent.
By skinster
#15032776
Palmyrene wrote:I didn't even quote you.


No, but you carried on the conversation right after, questioning my part in it.

The only Hadi I actually personally know is a girl so I assumed the same would be for your friend.


Odd, his quite clearly a dude from his profile pic, etc.

Who the hell is Oz?


Oz Katerji, some psycho nut-job that threatens people who don't support regime change on Syria.

I think her info is valid given how comprehensive it is.


There's hardly any about her.

The fact that the whole gassing people thing was a joke should've tipped you off.


"It was a joke"

Well obviously not. There's a reason why the Western left is so utterly useless when it comes to Syria.


:D

You gave me a list of regime changes inacted by the US. That isn't a definition habibi.


It's 'habibti' for the womenfolk. Are you sure you're Syrian?

I did. Several times.


Nope, you've named no rebel groups you currently support.

Yes I did. Daraya is a rebel organization because it is rebelling against the statement.


That's the name of a Syrian town.

I am 16. I thought that was extremely obvious.


It's extremely obvious that you're not.

It's not my opinion.


Yes it is. You've only shared that so far ITT.

I'm pretty sure you'll just call those Uighurs paid actors or something anyways. It's not worth it.


Google Maps should be able to provide evidence for those million-strong concentration camps, but still, you have nothing. :D
By Palmyrene
#15032956
skinster wrote:No, but you carried on the conversation right after, questioning my part in it.


I didn't question your part. I don't even know wtf you and ZN were talking about.

Odd, his quite clearly a dude from his profile pic, etc.


I didn't look at the Twitter post. The minute I saw your post I responded to it.

Oz Katerji, some psycho nut-job that threatens people who don't support regime change on Syria.


Still don't know who he is or how he's relevant.

There's hardly any about her.


But the info she gives is comprehensive.

"It was a joke"


Yup.

It's 'habibti' for the womenfolk. Are you sure you're Syrian?


I wasn't sure if you were a girl.

Nope, you've named no rebel groups you currently support.


I have. Although Daraya would be a rebel town.

That's the name of a Syrian town.


It's the name of a rebel Syrian town.

It's extremely obvious that you're not.


Am I too eloquent in my speech for a 16 year old?

Yes it is. You've only shared that so far ITT.


No, it isn't. I've specifically stated that I don't want US involvement.

Wanting a revolution =/= supporting regime change.

Google Maps should be able to provide evidence for those million-strong concentration camps, but still, you have nothing. :D


No, it wouldn't considering that not everything in Google Maps is dated to 2018-19.
By skinster
#15032987




Palmyrene wrote:I didn't question your part. I don't even know wtf you and ZN were talking about.


Yes, you @ me right after my interaction with ZN. You are welcome to pretend not to know what I'm talking about but if you're really uncertain (you're not) it's 2 pages away.

I didn't look at the Twitter post. The minute I saw your post I responded to it.


Odd, you stated the same thing as Oz Katerji responded to Hadi Nasrallah with; "anyone who supports the Syrian govt is doing so with a gun to their head". What a coincidence...

Still don't know who he is or how he's relevant.


You asked who he is and I responded. You really have difficulty following these conversations huh, even though all you need to do is scroll up for clarification.

But the info she gives is comprehensive.


Not sure why you keep promoting this regime-change "aid-worker". What info did she give you that you think is of such value? So far you've only talked about her rather than what she's wrote.

Yup.


"Hi, I'm a 16-year-old Syrian making jokes about how Assad doesn't really gas his own people because" :eh:

I wasn't sure if you were a girl.


Uh-huh.

I have. Although Daraya would be a rebel town.


And which rebels should we support there? They have no name still?

It's the name of a rebel Syrian town.


The town includes pro-government people. Still, not sure which rebel groups we're meant to support there.

Am I too eloquent in my speech for a 16 year old?


No, seems more that you're a liar about your identity.

No, it isn't. I've specifically stated that I don't want US involvement.


You have that in common with the SAA and government. :)

Wanting a revolution =/= supporting regime change.


We're not discussing your fantasies here, but the war that is current in Syria.

No, it wouldn't considering that not everything in Google Maps is dated to 2018-19.


:D
By Palmyrene
#15032995
skinster wrote:Yes, you @ me right after my interaction with ZN. You are welcome to pretend not to know what I'm talking about but if you're really uncertain (you're not) it's 2 pages away.


Yeah, what else am I supposed to do? Wait until someone else posts to respond to you? What the hell is that supposed to mean.

Odd, you stated the same thing as Oz Katerji responded to Hadi Nasrallah with; "anyone who supports the Syrian govt is doing so with a gun to their head". What a coincidence...


No, not really. I only said that in the context of Daraya not the rest of the country.

Also I'm fine if you think I'm the Wizard of Oz. The less you know, the better and you're already doing my work for me.

You asked who he is and I responded. You really have difficulty following these conversations huh, even though all you need to do is scroll up for clarification.


I'm on mobile and tired. I don't even know what you're responding to right now or what I said.

Not sure why you keep promoting this regime-change "aid-worker". What info did she give you that you think is of such value? So far you've only talked about her rather than what she's wrote.


Given that I've only recently found her blog, not much other than the Daraya article and her other articles.

"Hi, I'm a 16-year-old Syrian making jokes about how Assad doesn't really gas his own people because" :eh:


It isn't a joke about that. It's a joke about the denial of it. Eh whatever I don't care.

Uh-huh.


The username isn't particularly descriptive.

And which rebels should we support there? They have no name still?


I already named them.

The town includes pro-government people. Still, not sure which rebel groups we're meant to support there.


Most of the town's inhabitants are gone after the Syrian government destroyed it. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

And the rebel group is Daraya itself. They had their own councils and intricate forms of economics there.

No, seems more that you're a liar about your identity.


Could you say that to Assad please. Extra loud btw.

You have that in common with the SAA and government. :)


I don't want the government involved in Syrian affairs either thank you very much.

We're not discussing your fantasies here, but the war that is current in Syria.


Not a fantasy, a soon to be reality.

And I'm specifically referring to how you conflate regime change with revolution.

:D


:D
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