Trump “strengthens the hand of hard-liners within Iran” - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in the nations of the Middle East.

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#14853666
@Victoribus Spolia

And how can America defeat Afganistan? Can you just bomb a country to submission? How did that work in Vietnam? Or do you suggest genocide? How are those caves in Afganistan by the way? Who controls them? Do you think US civilians are prepared to sacrifice many, many lives and send in troops to barren sniper zone within a stealth paradise just to gain a few lives in return? Or is it nuclear war you suggest? Do you believe China will accept that? Or India or Pakistan now I think about it. You can't win in Afganistan. Rome spread too thin to rule Eurasia. Do you suggest America fall by doing likewise? America should worry about their own shores. Not everyone elses.
#14853678
B0ycey wrote:And how can America defeat Afganistan? Can you just bomb a country to submission? How did that work in Vietnam? Or do you suggest genocide? How are those caves in Afganistan by the way? Who controls them? Do you think US civilians are prepared to sacrifice many, many lives and send in troops to barren sniper zone within a stealth paradise just to gain a few lives in return? Or is it nuclear war you suggest? Do you believe China will accept that? Or India or Pakistan now I think about it. You can't win in Afganistan. Rome spread too thin to rule Eurasia. Do you suggest America fall by doing likewise? America should worry about their own shores. Not everyone elses.


I advocate doing what it takes to win, within reason. Like I said, we are our own worst enemy and though I will not go as far as advocating genocide I will say that we are far too humanitarian to properly conduct a war.

This is also where our worldviews clash a bit, I do not think a civilization can survive if is not continuously pouring energy into external actions of war, expansion, exploration, and maintenance of subjected regions. That energy when turned inwards is always a self-destructive cultural deconstruction and occurs when external projection ceases.
#14853683
Victoribus Spolia wrote:America neutered itself with its feminized and emasculated culture.


And what do you consider feminized and emasculated? In my opinion christianity is a feminized and emasculated culture and belief. White americans feeling like their manhood is threaten whenever a female or minority is any position of power or making more money than them. Islam never had this problem, nor does most religions, but it somehow affects Westerners.
#14853712
Potemkin wrote:It's Iraq which has suffered desertification since ancient times, not Iran. And most of the environmental damage in Iraq was caused by the Mongol invasion in the 13th century. The Mongols smashed the irrigation system when they sacked Baghdad, and the damage to Iraq's environment proved to be irreversible.
Provided that the discharge of its rivers are increased, wouldn't modern engineering and irrigation techniques be able to rebuild a green Mesopotamia?
#14853726
Victoribus Spolia wrote:
Well, with the way the west fights wars and occupies countries nowadays, I would have to agree. But this is a question of potentials and taking over Iran could "potentially" be profitable. I do not think it would be difficult militarily and what we do after the initial conquest would determined the relative success of it as a colony.

1. After defeating Iran I would give massive tax breaks and even some subsidies for American venture capitalists to go in and "re-build" from the perspective of profitability. Such would likely rebuild the devastated regions and employ the populace much quicker than our current method and without having to charge Americans a ton of money. The U.S. would control the oil reserves which will secure the supremacy of the Petro-Dollar and re-stablize OPEC firmly under U.S.-Saudi control and that alone will give a boost to the American economy.

2. I would cast down the theocratic system in place and punish rebels with the utmost severity. I would open the country to Christian missionaries and maybe even subsidize their efforts under the "guise" of them doing training in "English" and "Western Thought." I would import Sunni muslim laborers en masse just to keep the Shi'a population on their toes and from having a singular mindset against their western overlords.

3. I would also invest in permacultural design systems to increase the poorer citizens' self-sufficiency and food output which will also make the land more fertile and the environment healthier and invest in Soccer stadiums, movie theatres, etc. You know, bread and circuses. This will help prevent such groups from being as prone to radicalization and will keep them healthy and happy.

4. I would also extend special citizenship rights to any Iranian woman who marries an American male citizen under the "guise" of improving their lot as Iranian women have been a disproportionately "oppressed lot", but in reality, this would be for giving incentive to American investors and soldiers while weakening the ethno-nationalist morale of the Iranians. Persian women are pretty hot after all.

"To The Victor Goes The Spoils."

5. This is reality would all be much cheaper and more effective than our current methods. These methods have worked before in the middle-east and will work again, and certain local rule by Iranians will be permitted as long as they report all decisions to the local governors who are U.S. natives.

6. The U.S. government will also own and offer its own tourist company giving discounted vacations to U.S. citizens to the Caspian sea region as long as they sit through a seminar on the business opportunities available in Iran....

Sounds great to me.


1. You don't seem to understand how either power nor venture capitalism works. Taking over Iran, a foreign country sledgehammered between Russia and China and that contains a large amount of nukes, would require an amount of coordination that no country is able to accomplish and a ridiculous of resources that the US simply does not have or cannot effectively distribute. Furthermore, effectively occupying and rebuilding Iran from such a large distance is just a pipe dream. The US would either have to decentralize control of Iran heavily or waste thousands of resources on it and in either scenario, the US won't control Iran for long since it simply cannot retain absolute control over a country thousands of miles away from it. The US can't even pull itself together, how the flying fuck is it supposed to rebuild and properly administrate a country that institutions that rival itself?

Second, venture capitalism is some magical boost to an economy that will make everything fine and good. Venture capital is capital invested in a project in which there is a substantial element of risk and often is found when starting a new business. It cannot start-up a dead economy or create one out of nowhere. You'd have to be an idiot to believe that or simply not understand the definition of venture capital to think such a thing.

The only way in which the US can rebuild Iran's economy is if it had a large amount of centralized control over it and if it employed mercantilist economic policies on it, protecting it from not just the world market, but also the US itself. In order to rebuild an economy you must protect the small local businesses in it so that they may grow and become the large corporations you see in the global market today. This means no trade with the US or at least intense tariffs. And even then, as we have established before, the US cannot fully control Iran because it does not possess the resources to preform such a feat.

2. You can't punish rebels since you don't have a strong hold on Iran. You can't even genocide the population since there would be too little troops there to even properly occupy it. I think you need to understand something about colonialism before and what would be modern colonialism now. Before, colonialism "worked" because the West had a clear technological and institutional advantage to the native people. Here, Iran is not just pretty much a modern country (on par with China at least in terms of modernization) but it also has the strong institutions necessary to protect itself and it's government and there is an equal technological advantage, at least where it counts. No soldier is going to wear 300 pounds of Iron Man TALOS armor, at least in the US.

I don't feel that I need to respond to the rest of your post. I already attacked the core bullshit of your post from it's beginning. Unless you can refute this post, then I will discuss your later arguments.
#14853736
Oxymandias wrote:@Cookie Monster

It probably can. Israel managed to do it when a majority of it's population were farmers and only using simple irrigation techniques. Syria and Iraq, with relatively large urban centers and an untapped labor market could pull it off.


Would be a great sight to see the accomplishment of a green, lush Mesopotamia like in ancient times, perhaps even with the Hanging Gardens of Babylon rebuild in a modern version! :)
#14853739
@Cookie Monster

I agree, it would be a sight to behold. However I don't think there is enough information on the Hanging Gardens of Babylon to fully recreate it but I would be ok with an unrelated structure with the same idea and name as the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. My idea of a modern Hanging Gardens of Babylon is that it would be a large observatory with ancient Mesopotamian motifs and ideas along with large artifical waterfalls and vines lining the walls.
#14853743
Oxymandias wrote:I agree, it would be a sight to behold.
In fact, all the old wonders that aren't around anymore should be rebuild.

However I don't think there is enough information on the Hanging Gardens of Babylon to fully recreate it but I would be ok with an unrelated structure with the same idea and name as the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
I know, but one based on an artistic impression of the gardens, combined with the integration of new techniques and technologies would not hurt.

My idea of a modern Hanging Gardens of Babylon is that it would be a large observatory with ancient Mesopotamian motifs and ideas along with large artifical waterfalls and vines lining the walls.
Yeah, and a big guarded wall to ward off insurgents and zealots.

Turns out the old bastard actually had plans of rebuilding the Hanging Gardens:
http://hanginggardensofbabylon.org/hist ... ussein.asp

:lol:
#14853745
@Cookie Monster

He was a nationalist obviously. Support is hard to come by when you execute half your population.

And while we're at it, why not rebuild the House of Wisdom as well. Make it the biggest library in the world with the largest number of books in the world, just like in days of old. And not only that, but make it a university and a library at the same time! I think that would accurately represent the actual House of Wisdom.
#14853750
Oxymandias wrote:And while we're at it, why not rebuild the House of Wisdom as well. Make it the biggest library in the world with the largest number of books in the world, just like in days of old. And not only that, but make it a university and a library at the same time! I think that would accurately represent the actual House of Wisdom.
Not the bricks but the collections were the greatest loss when the ancient libraries were destroyed.

It can never be regained. :hmm:
#14853759
We’re all so accustomed to terrorism now, trucks driving into people, explosions targeting crowds etc, but the one thing that really gets me hot under the collar is the destruction of antiquities. (I am not saying Iran’s are being destroyed Anasawad so don’t tell me off, I’m speaking generally). I mean like Palmyra, the degradation of aboriginal rock art or the books and parchments contained in those ancient libraries Cookie Monster speaks of. There is something spiteful, evil in the destruction of antiquities. It’s to stop humans understanding themselves. Pure evil.
#14853762
@Oxymandias,

Trigger bait taken.......now should I reel you in?

Can't you read the obvious satire in my post? This was not a technical treatise on the logistical details of occupying a country like Iran.

At the same time, none of your "arguments" had any substantial aspects to them. Like the need to have a strong centralized core to an occupation of Iran....says who? You?

On what grounds do you make such a criticism? You cannot throw the claim that you "refuted me" around flippantly and expect people to take you seriously. You sound like a highschool troller that has gotten a little high on his horse and thinks that merely proclaiming that he has "refuted" a claim makes it so.

If you really want to tango with the big kids, let me know before 9PM because after that I'm done babysitting for the day.
#14853765
Libertarian353 wrote:And what do you consider feminized and emasculated? In my opinion christianity is a feminized and emasculated culture and belief. White americans feeling like their manhood is threaten whenever a female or minority is any position of power or making more money than them. Islam never had this problem, nor does most religions, but it somehow affects Westerners.


1. What? What does this even mean? Are you insinuating that opposition to feminism and cultural displacement is somehow a sign of feminity and that the Islamic community does not have such "reservations" about feminism and cultural displacement and are therefore more masculine than Christian cultures?

2. Since when have Islamic communities been more favorable to feminism and cultural displacement then western nations?

3. By what grounds would opposition to feminism be an emasculated and feminine position; whereas, supporting feminism be a masculine position? Are you implying that the more patriarchal a society is the more feminist and multi-cultural it will be? Or are you saying that more masculine a society is the less patriarchal it will be?

Either way you sound so fucking confused that I barely know where to begin. I really do not have the time to educate you.
#14853767
Victoribus Spolia wrote:1. What? What does this even mean? Are you insinuating that opposition to feminism and cultural displacement is somehow a sign of feminity and that the Islamic community does not have such "reservations" about feminism and cultural displacement and are therefore more masculine than Christian cultures?


Well what do you consider feminist, what your definition of it?

Victoribus Spolia wrote:Since when have Islamic communities been more favorable to feminism and cultural displacement then western nations?


Well they have female presidents and prime minsters for one thing. Ironic for americans to bitch about how oppress females are in Muslim countries, yet bitch when they ask for equal pay for the same job. Or bitching about females voting(remember Repeal the 19th on twitter) or a whites complaing about rape culture in jobs and schooling. But yea we're better than Muslims, cause we're not as "regressive" yet.


Victoribus Spolia wrote:
Victoribus Spolia wrote:By what grounds would opposition to feminism be an emasculated and feminine position; whereas, supporting feminism be a masculine position? Are you implying that the more patriarchal a society is the more feminist and multi-cultural it will be? Or are you saying that more masculine a society is the less patriarchal it will be?


Cause why do White Americans care about women(white women really) getting high paying jobs or in office? A simple look in eastern europe or Africa proves it doesn't affect their manhood. In fact more money is good for the family unit. But again what do you think is feminist?
#14853770
As far as the ancient collections, I agree that it is a great loss and that what remains should be preserved better.

But if you think about it, part of the allure of the ancient civilisations is precisely because of the fact that we know so little about it despite their great achievements and ordeals.

Now imagine a civilisation 3000 years from know, studying our era and our actions. Don't you think they would be less allured by our civilisation if all our records were preserved, including the digitally records of all our silly thoughts and activities on email, youtube, whatsapp, facebook, snapchat and whatnot?! :lol:

They would be tempted to call it the second middle ages. :D

But there really may be a dark age looming as digital records have a limited lifespan and much of it may be lost forever:
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 43516.html
#14853773
Libertarian353 wrote:Well what do you consider feminist, what your definition of it?


Which wave of feminism were you referring to when you made your critique of Christian white men? First, Second, or Third? It doesn't rally matter to me, any defintion which permits women to abandon their primary role as childbearers is societally destructive. Thing is, Christianity is a patriarchal religion that prohibits women from certain activities and Islam does as well, so your contrast is a false one. If Islam is masculine because it teaches the restriction of women, so is Christianity and vice-versa. If you view such restrictions as feminine, then both are equally feminine, but that is so counter-intutive we might as well switch the meaning of black and white.

Libertarian353 wrote:Well they have female presidents and prime minsters for one thing. Ironic for americans to bitch about how oppress females are in Muslim countries, yet bitch when they ask for equal pay for the same job. Or bitching about females voting(remember Repeal the 19th on twitter) or a whites complaing about rape culture in jobs and schooling. But yea we're better than Muslims, cause we're not as "regressive" yet.


Do historically Christian nations or historically Islamic nations have a higher rate of female employment and female political leaders?

Here is your clue:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... government

Looks awful "grey" in the muslim regions so it looks like you are wrong. It is the west that has more female leaders which is something you defined as manly for some reason. I say its weak and feminine to allow women to rule and is symptomatic of abandoning a religiously justified patriarchy. Thus, given that the west is allowing women rulers in violation to its historic Christian roots (which I defined as masculine), it follows that the west has become "emasculated" in the sense that I used the term and therefore my argument has been justified as I originally posted it, but even if we followed your convoluted argument, you would still be wrong.

Libertarian353 wrote:Cause why do White Americans care about women(white women really) getting high paying jobs or in office? A simple look in eastern europe or Africa proves it doesn't affect their manhood. In fact more money is good for the family unit. But again what do you think is feminist?


Ah yes, lets use generalizations about white people in America.....Russia is considered Eastern Europe and it is attempting to restrict female employment and provide financial incentives for women to stay home and have children (so how does that fit your generalization about Eastern Europe?)....As for Africa? Here is a generalization; have you ever thought that the women there make more money because the men are fucking lazy? Now that was not very nice was it? Perhaps we should both just stay away from hasty generalizations....shall we?

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