[Tainari88]

I'm the last person to defend US imperialism; however, what Trump does is of an entirely new dimension. At least the old imperialists were predictable, which provided a degree of stability. That has gone out off the window with Trump. Unpredictability in geopolitics is a recipe for disaster.

We may hope that he chickens out in the last minute as when nearly half of Saudi oil capacity was knocked offline by Iran or its proxies, but we can never be certain about it. Even when he is predictable and he doesn't chicken out of something like leaving the Paris Accord because it doesn't have any immediate consequences for him, his actions are potentially far more damaging than anything ISIS could ever have done, and certainly no previous US president would ever have done.

Arriving at an international consensus for fighting climate change is infinitely difficult, with the primary polluter leaving the Paris Accord, and thereby empowering climate change deniers the world over, managing climate change will become effectively impossible.

For these fat old men to feast on the future of our children is revolting in the highest degree. They are the worst type of ogres imaginable.

Well, I could not agree more with this post!

The truth be known? I think the unpredictably factor of that instinct driven egomaniac is an issue.

@Potemkin is right with a lot of his analysis about JFK and etc.

But personally watching that totally arrogant power drunk piece of lying crap 45 throwing paper towels in Puerto Rico after a humanitarian crisis in my COUNTRY....sealed his fate with me. He is a PIG.

And I would not shed a damn tear if some catastrophe befell that piece of shit President.

THE END.

[B0ycey]

Pawn, ally? Same fucking thing, at the end of the day. And JFK backstabbed the Cuban exiles at the Bay of Pigs, not Castro, obviously. Lol. Some of the Cuban exiles were so enraged at JFK after the Bay of Pigs fiasco that they made public threats to kill him.

Not really. A pawn is someone/thing that you support on a specific agenda and ultimately use and an ally is someone/thing that is a formal cooperation.

In other words, appearances and myths matter more than reality? Okay, gotcha.

JFK was young, handsome and well-spoken, whereas Trump is old, ugly and a blowhard. That's why you respect JFK and hate Trump. Will you fucking listen to yourself? Lol.

Why do you think I respect JFK? Perhaps rather than listen to yourself actually read what is put before you. JFK was a womaniser and was corrupt. That alone is enough to only consider any merits he had within the realms of political diplomacy and not in terms of respect. But I noticed you dodged the point of hatred again.

[late]

Backstabbing allies? What about JFK backstabbing Diem in South Vietnam? Ho Chi Minh said at the time that he had not believed the Americans could be so stupid as to overthrow Diem. It made North Vietnam's final victory all but inevitable. And what about the Bay of Pigs fiasco? And then there's his attacks on organised crime, despite the fact that his daddy made most of his money from supplying gangsters with the ingredients they needed to make moonshine during Prohibition, and the Mafia helped get JFK elected as a favour to his daddy. Lots of people had lots of reasons for whacking JFK; the miracle is that he lasted as long as he did. Trump looks clean as a whistle compared to JFK.

That was still a mind bogglingly stupid move by Trump.

Not why I posted. Leaving Diem in place would have changed nothing.

Ike should have killed the Bay of Pigs plan, it was a really bad plan. Ike put if off, and let JFK deal with it. A president is very busy at the beginning of a presidency (if you are actually working the job) and it slipped by him.

The mafia didn't help JFK politically. That's silly. But Eleanor did.

A lot of people didn't like JFK, but they didn't kill him, and would not have killed him. They knew he had no chance at a second term, they could wait him out.

Trump is thousands of times dirtier than JFK. That's why I posted.

"You are only as good as your sources"; your sources suck.

[Beren]

Backstabbing allies? What about JFK backstabbing Diem in South Vietnam? Ho Chi Minh said at the time that he had not believed the Americans could be so stupid as to overthrow Diem. It made North Vietnam's final victory all but inevitable. And what about the Bay of Pigs fiasco? And then there's his attacks on organised crime, despite the fact that his daddy made most of his money from supplying gangsters with the ingredients they needed to make moonshine during Prohibition, and the Mafia helped get JFK elected as a favour to his daddy. Lots of people had lots of reasons for whacking JFK; the miracle is that he lasted as long as he did. Trump looks clean as a whistle compared to JFK.

So what now, Pote? Even dumping Diem and turning against organised crime makes one dirty now?

And the Bay of Pigs wasn't exactly a JFK thing, it was a CIA thing approved by Eisenhower.

However, Trump doesn't do anything special with letting down the Kurds indeed, that's what always happens to them anyway.

[Rich]

Backstabbing allies? What about JFK backstabbing Diem in South Vietnam? Ho Chi Minh said at the time that he had not believed the Americans could be so stupid as to overthrow Diem.

Overthrowing Diem was absolutely correct. The problem was that it was too little too late.

Ceux qui font les révolutions à moitié n'ont fait que se creuser un tombeau

Authentic Vietnamese nationalism faced two deadly enemies, Communism and Papism. As well as cleansing the regime of Papists, serious land reform was also necessary to build a stable, resilient, non Communist Vietnam. South Vietnam was not as industrialised as South Korea, so land reform was even more critical.

[Potemkin]

So what now, Pote? Even dumping Diem and turning against organised crime makes one dirty now?

They were allies, and he backstabbed them. Lol. Besides, the Kurds aren't exactly angels either.

And the Bay of Pigs wasn't exactly a JFK thing, it was a CIA thing approved by Eisenhower.

Which happened under JFK's watch. As Truman liked to remind everyone, "The buck stops here."

However, Trump doesn't do anything special with letting down the Kurds indeed, that's what always happens to them anyway.

Very true. Not letting them down simply doesn't make any geopolitical sense. The one thing which unites almost every nation and group in the region is their determination not to let the Kurds have their own ethnic state. If we helped them set up their own ethnic state, we would have to prop it up both economically and militarily into the indefinite future, and it's just not worth doing.

[Finfinder]

@Finfinder, you could have saved yourself the trouble of Googling for ISIS. I didn't talk about who committed more crimes. I talked about who is hated more. Most people are not concerned about Bagdhadi, whereas we are all concerned about climate change and global peace and prosperity, all of which is threatened by Trump.

In other words I have the nerve (gal) to talk about a murdering terrorist actions on a thread about one of the most prolific ones in history, instead of obsessing and focusing on president Trump. Personally I think the smart move would have been to pass on the semantics (crime vs hate) and just say the world is a better place without that piece of shit. Not sure what political capital there was to gain by your ilk's position.
So it seemed fitting to "Google" and post an article detailing the scope of the brutality to bring some of you with afflicted Trump derangement syndrome back to reality.

@Finfinder, Most people are not concerned about Bagdhadi, whereas we are all concerned about climate change and global peace and prosperity, all of which is threatened by Trump.

That statement is just emotional, ridiculous, and patently untrue, and really exposes you and people like you that are conflicted by intellectual honesty verses reality.

[Beren]

They were allies, and he backstabbed them. Lol. Besides, the Kurds aren't exactly angels either.

Diem had been president since 1955, and he fucked up so much that he simply had to be removed. Nobody says the Kurds are angels, they just should have their own country.

Which happened under JFK's watch. As Truman liked to remind everyone, "The buck stops here."

It was an ongoing operation approved by the former president, so he let it go, but then he was blamed for the failure because he denied air support.

Very true. Not letting them down simply doesn't make any geopolitical sense.

It would make geopolitical sense because the West don't have any reliable allies in that key region except Israel.

If I didn't know anything about you, I'd believe you're a "progressive" idiot on campus.

[Stormsmith]

In other words, appearances and myths matter more than reality? Okay, gotcha.

JFK was young, handsome and well-spoken, whereas Trump is old, ugly and a blowhard. That's why you respect JFK and hate Trump. Will you fucking listen to yourself? Lol.

That's part of it, yes. To this day I think the Kennedys are regarded as people out of Camelot. But President Kennedy did a fairly good job of upholding the constitution whereas President Trump has not, starting with trying to keep all Muslims from moving to the US. President Kennedy also fought hard to integrate schools. Trump, by contrast, put Betsy DeVos in charge of stripping schools of their money and giving it to privately owned schools. Many South American families have been torn apart, and caged the kids. This will result in thousands of families who will never be together again, and the children will suffer with disorders all their lives.

President Kennedy helped farmers by encouraging electriflying more farms. He also gave them farm insurance and encouraged soil conservation whereas President Trump has made farmers lives difficult due his trade tariff gizmo, not mention pulling out of the Paris treaty on conservation

I won't go on. My point is President Kennedy did mess about, but he did good things too. I can't see where President Trump 's done much to brag about.

[Potemkin]

Diem had been president since 1955, and he fucked up so much that he simply had to be removed.

Diem never should have been put in charge of South Vietnam in the first place, but once he was there he could not be removed without fatally weakening the political system in South Vietnam.

Nobody says the Kurds are angels, they just should have their own country.

Why? Serious question.

It was an ongoing operation approved by the former president, so he let it go, but then he was blamed for the failure because he denied air support.

He let it go ahead, then he denied air support, so the operation was doomed to failure.

It would make geopolitical sense because the West don't have any reliable allies in that key region except Israel.

The Kurds are of more use to us without a nation-state of their own. This way, we can use them as proxies to interfere in the affairs of multiple Middle Eastern countries. We're always going to keep dangling the carrot in front of them, just out of reach.....

If I didn't know anything about you, I'd believe you're a "progressive" idiot on campus.

How so? Lol.

[Beren]

Diem never should have been put in charge of South Vietnam in the first place, but once he was there he could not be removed without fatally weakening the political system in South Vietnam.

South Vietnam was doomed to failure, however, it hardly was JFK's fault.

Why? Serious question.

Well, it was supposed to be a moral argument. They are a 30-45 million people without a country, although there's clearly a territory that could or even should be Kurdistan.

He let it go ahead, then he denied air support, so the operation was doomed to failure.

It was doomed to failure anyway. The leaders of the operation misled the president and expected him to approve air support regardless, but he rather chose not to escalate the conflict, I'm sure he was rightly blamed for that.

The Kurds are of more use to us without a nation-state of their own. This way, we can use them as proxies to interfere in the affairs of multiple Middle Eastern countries. We're always going to keep dangling the carrot in front of them, just out of reach.....

Oh, how cunning of you! They'd be of the most use to the West if they had their own state existentially depending on Western support as the State of Israel does.

How so? Lol.

You sounded like a campus anti-imperialist claiming that US presidents equally suck and the West should abandon the Middle East, so you just sounded like skinster, for example, but now you've changed your tone to classic British imperialist.

[Potemkin]

South Vietnam was doomed to failure, however, it hardly was JFK's fault.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Well, it was supposed to be a moral argument. They are a 30-45 million people without a country, although there's clearly a territory that could or even should be Kurdistan.

Then let them carve it out for themselves. Why should we do it for them?

It was doomed to failure anyway. The leaders of the operation misled the president and expected him to approve air support regardless, but he rather chose not to escalate the conflict, I'm sure he was rightly blamed for that.

Agreed, but he should never have let it go ahead in the first place.

Oh, how cunning of you! They'd be of the most use to the West if they had their own state existentially depending on Western support as the State of Israel does.

The state of Israel does not existentially depend on Western support. It did initially (which is why it switched from being a client of the Soviet Union to being a client of the West in the early 1950s), but by now Western aid is a very small percentage of Israeli GDP. This, of course, is why Israel is a rather unreliable proxy for us. And I still fail to see what possible use a state of Kurdistan would be to us.

You sounded like a campus anti-imperialist claiming that US presidents equally suck and the West should abandon the Middle East, so you just sounded like skinster, for example, but now you've changed your tone to classic British imperialist.

I have many strings on my bow. Lol.

[Beren]

Then let them carve it out for themselves. Why should we do it for them?

We shouldn't do it for them, we just should support them.

Agreed, but he should never have let it go ahead in the first place.

Maybe he shouldn't, but he still believed the CIA then, I guess. After the Bay of Pigs he decided "to splinter the C.I.A. in a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds”, then he got assassinated because he seriously meant to take back control.

The state of Israel does not existentially depend on Western support. It did initially (which is why it switched from being a client of the Soviet Union to being a client of the West in the early 1950s), but by now Western aid is a very small percentage of Israeli GDP. This, of course, is why Israel is a rather unreliable proxy for us. And I still fail to see what possible use a state of Kurdistan would be to us.

Israel still largely depends on the West and they existentially depend on the West in the long term, however, they've outgrown themselves as proxies indeed. The Kurds would be even better proxies because they could never do that and their geopolitical location is even better.

However, you just fail to see sometimes perhaps.

I have many strings on my bow. Lol.

Or you rather have many hats to put on.

[Tainari88]

@Beren said to @Potemkin

Or you rather have many hats to put on.

I think Potemkin has a lot of opinions. Whenever he puts on his ímperialist hat...that pisses me off badly. All this thinking with the eyes of some British imperialist is a serious deficit in his University of Edinburgh higher education. And that University of Edinburgh bookstore SUCKS lemons. They should have bilingual books and books in Spanish. That they consider themselves a resource for educated people is a joke. English only damn bookstore.

Do you know even Barnes and Noble super commercialism in the states chain bookstore has books in other languages you can order. I think the British need to stop with the imperial ambitions. They think Brexit is gonna cost them some jobs and some money and some flexibility initially but they are going to do it alone like the old worn out class conscious scene from the past? NOOOO.

Potemkin, if ever you think about saying something even remotely pro imperialism in any way whether it be about Kurdish independence movements, etc? And you sound like a British imperialist? Think about that dude in Mayapan who is Mayan and how he feels about conquering imperialist heroes coming in and thinking they discovered America.

But, he is a versatile thinker Beren....full of a lot of resources. Dealing with that mind of his is a real pleasure....but he needs to vote to break up with Westminster and go it alone in Scotland....Lol.

He needs to buy himself a kilt and some bagpipes and get the whole get up and stop fighting against stereotypes of Scottish penny pinching green grocers....You blue tartan man!

[Potemkin]

@Beren said to @Potemkin


I think Potemkin has a lot of opinions. Whenever he puts on his ímperialist hat...that pisses me off badly. All this thinking with the eyes of some British imperialist is a serious deficit in his University of Edinburgh higher education.

I was always an apt pupil, Tainari. Perhaps too apt. Lol. But I became a communist internationalist precisely because I understood the imperialist mindset. I knew exactly what these fuckers thought, and exactly what they were and are up to. This is why I regard Communism as mankind's only hope for the future.

I think the British need to stop with the imperial ambitions. They think Brexit is gonna cost them some jobs and some money and some flexibility initially but they are going to do it alone like the old worn out class conscious scene from the past? NOOOO.

"Forwards - into the past!"

Potemkin, if ever you think about saying something even remotely pro imperialism in any way whether it be about Kurdish independence movements, etc? And you sound like a British imperialist? Think about that dude in Mayapan who is Mayan and how he feels about conquering imperialist heroes coming in and thinking they discovered America.

I don't think that guide in Dzibilchaltun was very impressed with me either Tainari. And I thought we were getting along so well.... Lol!

But, he is a versatile thinker Beren....full of a lot of resources. Dealing with that mind of his is a real pleasure....but he needs to vote to break up with Westminster and go it alone in Scotland....Lol.

He needs to buy himself a kilt and some bagpipes and get the whole get up and stop fighting against stereotypes of Scottish penny pinching green grocers....You blue tartan man!

[Tainari88]

I was always an apt pupil, Tainari. Perhaps too apt. Lol. But I became a communist internationalist precisely because I understood the imperialist mindset. I knew exactly what these fuckers thought, and exactly what they were and are up to. This is why I regard Communism as mankind's only hope for the future.

Well, the only way these 'fuckers' stop fucking around with other people and their land and their resources and coming up with myths of how they civilized the savages...is for them to lose political power. And the only way that happens is for a far left person to take over 10 Downing Street, and parliament. But? Who knows...that Brexit scene is so weird that you might have something like that happen. As the British world turns....no one knows where it might lead?

"Forwards - into the past!"

You know how much I detest any kind of imperialism. But the British kind? I really really hate. Maybe Dutch imperialism is slightly worse. I got to consider that for a bit.

I don't think that guide in Dzibilchaltun was very impressed with me either Tainari. And I thought we were getting along so well.... Lol!

[/quote]

Everyone is a victim of ethnocentrism in the world. You are no exception to that rule.

Getting along....I can't blame you for not using flowery speeches on the man. You piss me off on PoFo with your short writings....concise scientific to the point direct synthesis of everything is your motto. I want long long passages to read....a long five hour speech from you on everything....but no....a thrifty Scottish man stingy with his words...

THE HORROR.

[Atlantis]

Backstabbing allies? What about JFK backstabbing Diem in South Vietnam?

You might as well have said that the US back-stabbed the Shah of Persia because it didn't defend his corrupt and repressive regime. That is very different from backstabbing the Kurds.

[Potemkin]

Well, the only way these 'fuckers' stop fucking around with other people and their land and their resources and coming up with myths of how they civilized the savages...is for them to lose political power. And the only way that happens is for a far left person to take over 10 Downing Street, and parliament. But? Who knows...that Brexit scene is so weird that you might have something like that happen. As the British world turns....no one knows where it might lead?

Indeed Tainari. Citizen Corbyn will lead us into the Promised Land of socialism, in which everyone will own an allotment and be able to grow prize-winning marrows!

You know how much I detest any kind of imperialism. But the British kind? I really really hate. Maybe Dutch imperialism is slightly worse. I got to consider that for a bit.

The Dutch are worse. Look into your heart, Tainari - you know it to be true.

Everyone is a victim of ethnocentrism in the world. You are no exception to that rule.

Getting along....I can't blame you for not using flowery speeches on the man. You piss me off on PoFo with your short writings....concise scientific to the point direct synthesis of everything is your motto. I want long long passages to read....a long five hour speech from you on everything....but no....a thrifty Scottish man stingy with his words...

THE HORROR.

By British standards, I was being outgoing and sociable with him, Tainari. I was listening attentively to him and engaging with his talk by asking questions at appropriate moments. Most British people would have been gazing off into the middle distance while he was talking to them, or looking at their watch every couple of minutes. They certainly wouldn't have asked any questions. I thought I was making a good impression.... Lol!

[Potemkin]

You might as well have said that the US back-stabbed the Shah of Persia because it didn't defend his corrupt and repressive regime. That is very different from backstabbing the Kurds.

Allies are allies, whether their regime is corrupt and repressive or not. As FDR is reputed to have said of Somoza: "He may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch!"

[Beren]

I don't mean to doubt Potemkin's virtues, @Tainari88, but we agree perhaps that he's just a fallible human being too.