[colliric]

Yeah, saw the live broadcast. Have to say I agreed with Biden completely. What was the point of can kicking? The wrong decision as Beren stated was going there to begin with. That was a Republican decision so perhaps the Republicans, like McConnell, could perhaps take some responsibility also.

Democrat cult brainwashing in action. Totally brainwashed.

Next up Godstud..... Mr "I don't support Biden and Democrats only to 110% support Biden and the democrats".

[B0ycey]

Democrat cult brainwashing in action. Totally brainwashed.

It wasn't brainwashing. He was correct. The Afghan Army was given all the training and equipment they needed and they chose not to fight. You can blame Biden for the hasty exit, but we were all caught out over that and I don't believe him when he said America wasn't there for "Nation Building". They were but perhaps not his administration. But everything else he said was correct. There was nothing anyone could do and unless America wanted to stay there indefinitely, this house of cards was destined to fall.

[colliric]

Taliban spokesperson: We have no respect for Senile Joe, he's too confused, withdrawal was a shambles. Subtly implies respect for Trump, by discussing his plan and reminding everyone they agreed to it and didn't break their end of the deal.

[Fasces]

BIDEN STANDS BY HIS DECISION TO ABANDON AFGHANISTAN

BIDEN STANDS BY TRUMP'S DECISION TO ABANDON AFGHANISTAN

[colliric]

BIDEN STANDS BY TRUMP'S DECISION TO ABANDON AFGHANISTAN

You can debate weather or not the Taliban spokesman is telling the truth or not, but they explicitly stated this was all Biden's fault for breaking the May withdrawal agreement, being confused as fuck and the US Army needlessly panicking during the evacuation. Taliban explicitly stated they were going to let you leave peacefully, they have kept up their end of the bargain, all the gunfire in those videos came from US troops shooting at allies simply attempting to escape the country with you. The Taliban had to teach Biden a lesson in keeping to his contractual obligations.

Weather or not you believe they're telling the truth, at least that is their official position.

[Fasces]

You can debate weather or not the Taliban spokesman is telling the truth or not, but they explicitly stated this was all Biden's fault for breaking the May withdrawal agreement,

To be clear, it is your belief that

1) the Biden administration violated the Doha Agreement?

2) if NATO had withdrawn three months ago, the Taliban would not have taken back control of Afghanistan?

[colliric]

To be clear, it is your belief that

1) the Biden administration violated the Doha Agreement?

2) if NATO had withdrawn three months ago, the Taliban would not have taken back control of Afghanistan?

1) Yes. Delaying the withdrawal was a deliberate violation of the original agreement reached between the Taliban and Trump(representing the US). This no doubt motivated the Taliban to tech the US a lesson.

2) No. But I doubt it would have been the absolute Blitzkrieg we just witnessed. I think if Trump was in power, air support would have remained.

[Fasces]

1) Yes. Delaying the withdrawal was a deliberate violation of the original agreement reached between the Taliban and Trump(representing the US). This no doubt motivated the Taliban to tech the US a lesson.

To be clear, the Doha Agreement states that the United States should withdraw from Afghanistan within 14 months of July 2020. The May 1st date was contingent on specific actions by the Taliban, which it did not immediately comply with, arresting the beginning of the second 9.5 month withdrawal phase until later. The Taliban, for example, did not even begin to start intra-Afghan negotiations until September 2020, and prisoner transfers were similarly delayed.

August 2021 is still within the Doha timeframe. The US is in compliance.

No. But I doubt it would have been the absolute Blitzkrieg we just witnessed. I think if Trump was in power, air support would have remained.

So your view is that Trump would have continued US military actions in Afghanistan, despite the Doha Agreement? (Specifically, Part 1-F, which reads:)

The United States and its allies will refrain from the threat or the use of force against the
territorial integrity or political independence of Afghanistan or intervening in its domestic
affairs.

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upload ... .29.20.pdf

To reiterate - your criticism is that Biden's failure to uphold the Doha Agreement, which it did not do, caused the rapid Taliban advance; and that if Trump had remained in office, he would have prevented that advance by violating the Doha Agreement?

[Rancid]

To reiterate - your criticism is that Biden's failure to uphold the Doha Agreement, which it did not do, caused the rapid Taliban advance; and that if Trump had remained in office, he would have prevented that advance by violating the Doha Agreement?

You are talking to @colliric. These type of retarded and contradictory statements are par for the course with colliric.

[B0ycey]

To reiterate - your criticism is that Biden's failure to uphold the Doha Agreement, which it did not do, caused the rapid Taliban advance; and that if Trump had remained in office, he would have prevented that advance by violating the Doha Agreement?

Your post and highlighted contradiction is indeed correct but I still want to point out the failure was not the agreement for which Trump would have almost certainly have failed on as well given he made it. The problem was the Afghan Army. Nobody could have predicted they wouldn't have put up no resistance at all and had Trump pulled out the troops... and something for which Colliric seems to criticise Biden of despite that being the agreement I might add... he would have had to deal with same cards. At this moment in time if you are critical of Biden you may as well say you wanted a presence in Afghanistan indefinitely. The horror is painful to watch and we shouldn't have gone in to begin with but the only solution today is to rip off the bandaid and that is what Biden did.

[Rancid]

Your post and highlighted contradiction is indeed correct but I still want to point out the failure was not the agreement for which Trump would have almost certainly have failed on as well given he made it. The problem was the Afghan Army. Nobody could have predicted they wouldn't have put up no resistance at all and had Trump pulled out the troops... and something for which Colliric seems to criticise Biden of despite that being the agreement I might add... he would have had to deal with same cards. At this moment in time if you are critical of Biden you may as well say you wanted a presence in Afghanistan indefinitely. The horror is painful to watch and we shouldn't have gone in to begin with but the only solution today is to rip off the bandaid and that is what Biden did.

My understanding is that the intelligence community did in fact believe the Afghan Army would fail. They just believed it would take a few months rather than a few days. In other words, the fall of Afghanistan was expected from the start (just not this fast). The predicted end result, was correct.

Initially, I guess people thought that 20 years of occupation could create the construct of an Afghan identity, which would then be a motivating factor for say, the army to actually want to defend the country. wrooong! The US probably realized this wasn't gonna happen some years ago. They were just sitting on this.

[B0ycey]

My understanding is that the intelligence community did in fact believe the Afghan Army would fail. They just believed it would take a few months rather than a few days. In other words, the fall of Afghanistan was expected from the start (just not this fast). The predicted end result, was correct.

I guess people thought that 20 years of occupation could create the construct of an Afghan identity, which would then be a motivating factor for say, the army to actually want to defend the country.

wrooong!

I have heard similar. But without timeline and only a possibility. The official figures were the Afghan Army was four times the size and had an Airforce. I have heard corruption might mean that those figures might be wrong but I do think if there was a desire, the Afghan Army still should have won given they had the air defence and I doubt corruption would have reduced the figures by 3/4ths. Instead they pissed off to Uzbekistan or handed over the keys at Kabul. Their leader also pissed off and perhaps that was the final straw for the army. And there was talk of none payment. All in all, I do not blame the Americans (except Bush) given the Afghans basically didn't fight for their freedom. And in that sense we have to accept the Taliban as the official leaders. We lost and no amount of goalpost moving will change that.

[Heisenberg]

I can't believe people are still insisting on making this a party-political thing. The monumental fuck up in Afghanistan is probably the best example of this wonderful "bipartisanship" I hear praised so much. Four different presidential administrations and both Democrat and Republican-run Congresses have overseen this disaster. Likewise, in the UK it started under Blair, and was very enthusiastically carried on by Cameron. There's plenty of blame to go around, guys, don't worry!

[Rancid]

@B0ycey agree
@Heisenberg agree

[B0ycey]

I can't believe people are still insisting on making this a party-political thing. The monumental fuck up in Afghanistan is probably the best example of this wonderful "bipartisanship" I hear praised so much. Four different presidential administrations and both Democrat and Republican-run Congresses have overseen this disaster. Likewise, in the UK it started under Blair, and was very enthusiastically carried on by Cameron. There's plenty of blame to go around, guys, don't worry!

I think America has made this political, the UK not so much... yet. We will have to see what happens tomorrow when parliament is returned. But I will say Starmer will have to watch what he says. It was Labour who started this clusterfuck and Johnson, like Biden, inherited this shitshow and wasn't the architect of it. Once America left, the UK poodle was unable to do much and although you perhaps can blame Johnson for our response and lack of plan or even the wrong understand of the situation, what you cannot blame Johnson for was the war. That is partly down to Blair and as such I blame Labour and not the Conservatives for Afghanistan. It pains me to say that given I am a Labour supporter, but we have to be honest with ourselves that in terms of the UK at least, the blame comes down to Blair.

[Godstud]

I do not think there was any good way for US, and everyone else, to leave Afghanistan.

[colliric]

To reiterate - your criticism is that Biden's failure to uphold the Doha Agreement, which it did not do, caused the rapid Taliban advance; and that if Trump had remained in office, he would have prevented that advance by violating the Doha Agreement?

Are you an idiot? I can't believe you did not jump to the conclusion that I was talking about Trump using the Airforce to keep the Taliban under pressure not to break the agreement themselves, as he withdrew the ground forces. Doesn't have to be a stated threat, just have them ready to fly. Say it's part of the withdrawal, because that's no lie, it is.

You seem to create a fantasy inside your mind as to what my post was about.

The Taliban explicitly stated your country violated that agreement by missing the May deadline and that is why they've taken it by force. They did not view the may deadline as optional, regardless of what you think. That's the TALIBAN'S STATED VIEW. Your country violated the agreement, as there was an explicit agreed date.

You are talking to @colliric. These type of retarded and contradictory statements are par for the course with colliric.

Using the Airforce to protect your ground retreat, in case your opponent attacks, is standard practice even when the withdrawal is agreed upon. But I guess I'm retarded for thinking standard practice needs to be adhered to.

[AFAIK]

@B0ycey If only this clusterfuck had coincided with Corbyn's stint as leader. Could have led to some spicy debates.

[colliric]

I do not think there was any good way for US, and everyone else, to leave Afghanistan.

Using air strikes to stop the Taliban blitzkrieg would have helped.

[Juin]

BIDEN STANDS BY TRUMP'S DECISION TO ABANDON AFGHANISTAN

Someone better send Senile Joe his MAGA Hat. Senile Joe is now officially a Trumpeteer.

Will our newly minted Trumpeteer Biden finish the wall started by Trump?