Will Africa ever lose third world status? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in the nations of Africa.

Moderator: PoFo Africa Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
#13756566
Europe and America are host to millions of sharp Africans.

Statistics show African immigrants to be the most educated group in America. They are more educated than Asians, Caucasians, and any other group.

Interestingly enough, these Africans abroad generally do not enter just any discipline. You would usually find them in Science and Technology. They go into some of the roughest, most formidable careers out there.

Furthermore, these Africans are not exactly well respected abroad by their host country. Black Africans are treated like garbage in France. Americans have their problem with Black, even though it may be covert. I would attribute this lack of respect to the third word status of Africa. Also, this may be due to the fact that African Americans aren't doing too well, regardless of all the opportunities they have in America.

On a sad note, there are many Africans who live a long time abroad and eventually return home. You would expect such people to push for change. As it turns out, many of them simply return to the same way natives did things, which has impeded progress forever.

So, seeing how much Africans are capable to contributing to Africa, what is keeping wealthy African intellectuals from returning home to develop their own continent?
User avatar
By Fasces
#13756595
Statistics show African immigrants to be the most educated group in America


I don't believe this to be false, but if you could link to the statistics in question?
User avatar
By Godstud
#13756602
Yes, but it's going to take a great deal of work on the subject of fair trade, to achieve it. Africa is forced to sell its resources at below market prices. When this finally stops, the countries will be able to afford to build the infrastructures necessary to become developing countries, and thus shed the 3rd world status.
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13756749
rik wrote:So, seeing how much Africans are capable to contributing to Africa, what is keeping wealthy African intellectuals from returning home to develop their own continent?

Lack of political will and a lack of the political infrastructure to carry it out.

And to clarify, when I say 'lack of political will', I mean that African nationalism often runs onto the same problem that Arab nationalism ran onto. The rich and educated return to Africa and are unable to purge themselves of the upper-middle class aspirations and interests that they picked up from being trained in Anglo-Saxon institutions, and that coupled with the taste of money causes them to quickly sell out to the international financier class in order to protect themselves from the perceived threat of their own working class citizens.

Most simply, they become cut-throat international capitalists (effectively self-serving warlords), and in a third world country that means disaster.

What a third-world country actually needs instead is large public investment in infrastructure, developmental welfare, and a system of state-corporatism like what General Park Chung-hee did in South Korea.
Last edited by Rei Murasame on 15 Jul 2011 06:13, edited 1 time in total.
By Chill
#13756751
Rei Murasame wrote:What a third-world country actually needs instead is large public investment in infrastructure, developmental welfare, and a system of state-corporatism like what General Park Chung-hee did in South Korea.

And China is always there to help.
I seem to have found the solution here. :lol:
User avatar
By Rei Murasame
#13756757
Well, the People's Republic of China is one of the very international finance powers that African pirate-warlords are busy selling out to on a daily basis. China (like Japan, SK, UK, Singapore, France, and most other powers involved in dialogue and trade with the African ruling classes) doesn't make any demands on a social level, and actually awards no-strings-attached contracts.

So we have all been basically letting the African ruling classes choose how to invest the money that we are giving to them, and many of them have basically just spent it on themselves and lived the international capitalist dream, while their own working class citizens roll around in the dirt.

They are going to stay stuck in third-world status forever unless they get a clue and start investing in their own people and their own infrastructure (and gaining the political power and the military muscle to prevent others from toppling them while the do so), or unless they get colonised by a Western European or East Asian country.

Since the latter will never happen, it's clearly a problem that Africans will have to solve for themselves.
By Chill
#13756762
Chinese help them build infrastructures and they give Chinese natural resources. Not that we only give them money so that they can use in any way they want. At least some infrastructures are left. And the rest no one can really help them.
By rik
#13757292
I don't believe this to be false, but if you could link to the statistics in question?

You have the largest encyclopedia in front of you. Use it.
Google the terms:
most educated group america
most educated group uk

Africa is forced to sell its resources at below market prices.

That is a good point.

Most simply, they become cut-throat international capitalists

But capitalist countries are the most advanced. More middle class citizens.
So if your theory were to make a modicum of sense, these cut-throat capitalists in Africa would be aspiring for the moon, by developing new goods and services, to be sold to a large consumer base. But that is not what we see. Rather, they demonstrate the opposite, i.e. lack of interest in advancing the system.

Speaking of capitalism and advancement, Russia was a 3rd world rat hole, until it switched to capitalism. China's hybrid of capitalism and communism is paying dividends. Nothing like that happened under pure state controlled China. So, give credit where due. The best of human endeavor comes out of Capitalism.

What a third-world country actually needs instead is large public investment in infrastructure, developmental welfare

Public investment in infrastructure - strong yes.
welfare state - strong no.

And China is always there to help.

China is amazing. Thumbs up.
As it turns out though, most of what China produces are reverse-engineered American inventions. So thumbs up for capitalism as well.

China is all over Africa already. I don't know how much good they're doing, other than advancing their own interest of drumming up contracts for China.

So we have all been basically letting the African ruling classes choose how to invest the money that we are giving to them, and many of them have basically just spent it on themselves and lived the international capitalist dream, while their own working class citizens roll around in the dirt.


You really have it in for capitalism. But you have no qualms about utilizing things that capitalism make possible, such as the Internet. Are you a hypocrite?
Capitalism, communism, it doesn't matter.
People are slaves to the state under communism,
People are slaves to corporations under capitalism.
The only difference is that under capitalism, you have the opportunity to move up in status. No such thing under communism.

Any GDP growth they have is canceled by huge population growth.

India is exploding in population growth. Do you predict the same doom and gloom for India?
Last edited by rik on 16 Jul 2011 02:35, edited 1 time in total.
By Wolfman
#13757294
But capitalist countries are the most advanced


The highest GDP per Capita countries and most stable economies are Social Democracies, not Capitalist states.
By rik
#13757298
The highest GDP per Capita countries and most stable economies are Social Democracies, not Capitalist states.

I don't think you're correct. Here is the top 10 by GDP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... nominal%29
United States 14,582,400
Eurozone 12,174,523
People's Republic of China 5,878,629
Japan 5,497,813
Germany 3,309,669
France 2,560,002
United Kingdom 2,246,079
Brazil 2,087,890
Italy 2,051,412
India 1,729,010
Canada 1,574,052
By TruePolitics
#13757300
Well South Africa lost third world status after whites moved in. I suppose if whites move into the other countries then they'll get better too.
By Wolfman
#13757305
I don't think you're correct. Here is the top 10 by GDP


GDP and GDP per Capita are two different things.

US: Mixed economy leaning on Capitalism
Eurozone: full of Social Democracies
PR China: I don't need to anything
Japan: Social Democracy
Germany: Social Democracy
France: Social Democracy
UK: Social Democracy
Brazil: Mostly Capitalism
Italy: Social Democracy
India: Mostly Capitalism
Canada: Social Democracy

And for GDP Per Capita:
Luxembourg: Social Democracy
Norway: Social Democracy
Qatar: Mixed Economy, leaning towards Capitalism
Switzerland: Social Democracy
UAE: Mixed Economy, leaning towards Capitalism
Denmark: Social Democracy
Australia: Social Democracy
Sweden: Social Democracy
US: Mixed economy, leaning towards Capitalism
Netherlands: Social Democracy.

30% of countries listed as in the top ten of GDP or GDP per Capita are Capitalist.
By Chill
#13757308
rik wrote:India is exploding in population growth. Do you predict the same doom and gloom for India?

India is doomed in any sense.
By rik
#13757312
GDP and GDP per Capita are two different things.

I see your point.

Social-ist nations are nations of lower expectations though. You would agree with me that most of the best goods and services come out of Capitalist nations - USA, Japan, Germany, etc.

I prefer a system that allows you to advance, commensurate with your abilities. Socialist systems cap your ability to advance beyond a certain threshold.

But, to each his own.
By Wolfman
#13757320
Social-ist nations are nations of lower expectations though.


Depending on your perspective, they have higher expectations.

You would agree with me that most of the best goods and services come out of Capitalist nations - USA, Japan, Germany, etc.


Japan and Germany are Social Democracies, as I already said. And the best products I've seen tend to be Japanese or Korean. And South Korea is a Social Democracy as well.

I prefer a system that allows you to advance, commensurate with your abilities.


You realize that the more Capitalist a state the higher their Gini index, which is a measure of income inequality? You're basically supporting a system which has a lower overall economic strength and basically creates a permanent underclass and strips the middle class. You say you want one thing, and then support what is going to prevent it from ever happening

Socialist systems cap your ability to advance beyond a certain threshold.


Legit Socialism? Not really. They have their own thing completely outside this discussion. Social Democracies let you advance however much you want, but you are basically required to contribute to the preservation of the society which made it possible for you get as wealthy as you are in the first place.
By grassroots1
#13757326
I prefer a system that allows you to advance, commensurate with your abilities. Socialist systems cap your ability to advance beyond a certain threshold.


Only if you mean "advance" in a material sense. The theory is that the means of production would be collectively owned, and each person would have an opportunity for "self-actualization." That is, they could fulfill themselves, intellectually and physically. Honestly this is the kind of "advancement" I'm most concerned with, but the capitalist system convinces us that money is the most important marker of advancement and success.
User avatar
By Oxymoron
#13757343
third world means its not Europe Or communist russia, the term is meaningless today


talk in plain english
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 8
The Next UK PM everybody...

Had Symonds made an accusation against him, it wou[…]

I am not interested in your semantics debate abou[…]

The extradition bill was necessary , in order to […]

1. The USA is not a real country in the historic […]