[Goldberk]

As Kenya's troops continue their incursion into southern Somalia in pursuit of Islamist militants, the BBC's Will Ross considers the motives behind the deployment.

"I hope in three or four months, al-Shabab will have been removed from our region. Then one day I'll invite you to come to Kismayo to see what's going on," said Abdullahi Shafi, personal assistant to the governor of Somalia's Lower Juba region.

He is hopeful that with Kenyan military help, he can soon return home to a new semi-autonomous region in southern Somalia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15499534

Interesting situation in east Africa right now, I particularly like the bit in this story where it describes how the president in waiting of this new semi autonomous region previously worked for a French oil company and that there may be oil deposits off the coast, coincidence?

[Daktoria]

How is it a bad thing to stabilize energy supplies?

Furthermore, why don't those who do the stabilization deserve control over how they're compensated?

[Goldberk]

I see a problem with military intervention by proxy to guarantee energy supplies from an area for little benefit to the people of that area. Furthermore I am skeptical to how stable peoples lives will be living under and externally generated government.

[Daktoria]

Somalia doesn't have its own jurisdiction though. It's just anarchy, so the idea of people identifying with the area they live within is moot.

Perhaps their lives won't be stabilized, but they aren't stable already.

This is in contrast to say Iraq (where oil was the supposed motive as well). Saddam didn't like al Qaeda, and despite the bad things he did to his own people, those bad things weren't our fault, so we shouldn't have intervened.

In Somalia, there's no semblance of jurisdiction at all, so unless you're going to turn into an anarcho-...neocon(?), there's no potential for you to have an argument.

Not that plenty of feminists aren't doing that already in endorsing Obama's actions in Libya and Africa anyway...

...oh wait, I forgot, feminism and multiculturalism don't get along.

[Goldberk]

Somalia doesn't have its own jurisdiction though. It's just anarchy, so the idea of people identifying with the area they live within is moot.

I don't totally agree, there is no unified Somali state as we would recognise it however there are several statelets or cantons, related to clan alligence, that exist within Somalia.

Perhaps their lives won't be stabilized, but they aren't stable already.

In some areas they do have a certin degree of stability, yes not much, but some. The kenyan involvement will in the long term cause further destabalization.

[Daktoria]

I don't totally agree, there is no unified Somali state as we would recognise it however there are several statelets or cantons, related to clan alligence, that exist within Somalia.

Until these cantons garnish (dialectic) international recognition, why should any particular nation (analytically) recognize them?

[Goldberk]

Until these cantons garnish (dialectic) international recognition, why should any particular nation (analytically) recognize them?

They have no obligation to. However morally it seems right to recognize a certain degree of self determination in these areas.

[Daktoria]

Obligations without morality?

[Rei Murasame]

I'd like to know, Daktoria, how not inviting a group of people into one's own country, while blowing them up, qualifies as 'multicultural'. I'm asking you this since you keep using the word 'multiculturalism' like if you don't know what it means.

I have no argument on my own to put forward here, since I actually don't care about the African issue in that way, but I just want to know what you think that word means.

[Daktoria]

What are you talking about? Somalia represents a perpetual security risk to Kenya, and everyone Kenyan military forces encounter isn't going to be treated as hostile. That would be the sloppiest rules of engagement imaginable.

Multiculturalism is just institutionalized diversity. This contrasts against assimilationism.

[Rei Murasame]

Well then I'm glad you know that this statement doesn't make sense then:

Not that plenty of feminists aren't doing that already in endorsing Obama's actions in Libya and Africa anyway......

oh wait, I forgot, feminism and multiculturalism don't get along.

[Far-Right Sage]

The Kenyans aren't simply going to drive to the coast behaving like the Mongols, however. It would be bad policy. There is no Somali government which exercises control over the whole of the nation's land area, but there is to some extent a strong identification among these people as Somali and an almost clannish xenophobic attitude toward many outsiders. Somalia is a death trap for those not willing to commit a decisive amount of firepower. The U.S. learned this in Mogadishu.

If the Kenyans manage to lose their allies in the official Somali government, useless as they may prove militarily, it would be a very bad thing.

Regardless, from what I've heard the U.S. is in this up to its neck and I imagine other nations are behind the scenes as well, so there are other forces at play here.

[Daktoria]

Well then I'm glad you know that this statement doesn't make sense then:

Hence the sarcasm, Rei. That is how it is in America though. I'd bet that's how it is among your Labour cohorts as well.

[GunsnRoses]

It's evident that Kenya ís seeking a buffer zone in Jubaland. Border guards and Kenyan citizens living near the border have been repeatedly under fire from Somalian terrorists, foreign tourists have been kidnapped and understandably Kenyan officials are more than fed up with the constant attacks coming from Somalia. Also, due to the anarchic situation in Somalia, thousands of Somalian refugees are spilling over Kenya's borders. So there is at least, contrary to Iraq 2003, a proper 'casus belli'. A newly formed autonomic region/state would, in theory, at least move the battlefield away from the Kenyan border. But I am most curious to the outcomes of such an attack. Former attempts to stabilize Somalia often turned out to add to the unstability in the region rather than counter it as stated by US deputy Assistant Secretary of State Karl Wycoff in a leaked diplomatic cable (Wikileaks), although the US government is using drones to support the Kenyan attack in the region. Any ideas how this fighting in Jubaland will turn out? Let me know.

Greetings from Holland, and I apologize for bad grammar/ language

[J Oswald]

If the Kenyans are seeking a buffer state in Somalia, then they have no idea what they're doing. As I said in an earlier thread, Kenya lacks the resources to keep such a buffer state stable against the Islamists. Kenya also hasn't addressed the problem of terrorists among the Somali population within Kenya. Until they eliminate the domestic threat and secure the border, Kenya will continue to suffer terrorist attacks.