Why African poverty? - Page 19 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in the nations of Africa.

Moderator: PoFo Africa Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
User avatar
By Paradigm
#14760665
Bulaba Jones wrote:And yet the point Drlee made is that the Aztecs, Incas, Mayans, and Native American tribes raped, pillaged, and enslaved each other. It's simply a dispassionate observation of history. The Europeans simply did what they did in the New World on a greater scale due to the enormous disparity in technology, manpower, and resources. What do you think would have happened to people in neighboring continents had the Mesoamericans developed steel, gunpowder, and ocean-faring ships before the Europeans did? Peace, love, and brotherly understanding?

I don't think it's fair to equate what Drlee said with someone justifying rape. He obviously isn't defending raping, pillaging, and slavery.

I'm not defending the Aztec, Inca, or Maya. They all conquered other tribes who were in turn conquered by Europeans along with them. No one's saying Europeans were exceptional in their drive for conquest, though at the same time I would caution against the assumption that any culture would have done the same -- cultures can be very different in terms of how they perceive and interact with other cultures. What is exceptional about European colonialism is how it managed to preserve itself through numerous iterations, even after these countries officially declared their independence. Europe was powerful enough to continue to enforce its debt claims long after handing over the official reigns of power, and has continued to compound its debts through international banking institutions like the IMF and World Bank. Meanwhile, intelligence agencies like the CIA have helped ensure that regimes favorable to Western interests stay in power, with those who refuse to comply finding themselves at the at the barrel of some rifles sold to a junta by Western governments. Meanwhile, they've lost traditional means of subsistence by a forced conversion to cash crops, which they export even in times of famine. No other empire has managed to maintain such tight economic control over their colonies in such clever and manipulative manner. Western imperialism is not uniquely evil, but it is uniquely efficient at being evil.
#14760730
You forgot the disease. Europeans were filthy pig/cattle farmers with all types of disgusting, foreign diseases.


All cultures spread disease to others, simply due to natural immunity from geographic regions. Our obsession with travel today is responsible for the widespread of disease. Many diseases from Africa have spread to the rest of the world.
User avatar
By Frollein
#14760738
all types of disgusting, foreign diseases.


Like Zika, or Ebola, or Kuru? From foreign, disgusting, third worlders? And last time I looked, the Plague, which wiped out half of Europe, originated in filthy, foreign Asia.

Man, autoaggression is really strong in the West. :roll:
User avatar
By Drlee
#14760972
Europe was powerful enough to continue to enforce its debt claims long after handing over the official reigns of power, and has continued to compound its debts through international banking institutions like the IMF and World Bank. Meanwhile, intelligence agencies like the CIA have helped ensure that regimes favorable to Western interests stay in power, with those who refuse to comply finding themselves at the at the barrel of some rifles sold to a junta by Western governments.


I don't think this is particularly true. I think if you look at ancient civilizations, their occupation of colonies lasted much longer and was just as, if not more pervasive. The Moors flourished in Spain for 700 years. The Han ruled Northern Korea for 400 years. I need not go into Rome for, brutality, tribute and cultural destruction.

As for regimes favorable, etc. I think it is disingenuous to see this and universally bad. I expect there are quite a few North Koreans who might wish we had been a bit more proactive in their neck of the woods. Likewise in Eastern Europe. Was our undermining of the Soviet Union in the best interest of a great many people?

The issue of traditional farming is far more difficult than simply to assert some universal blame for starvation on Western colonialism. Populations in most subsistence farming areas rose and fell based upon the vagaries of weather and political strife long before a white face was seen. We ignore these fluid notions of population only in the face of our modern expectation to be free of such things. In other words, there has always been famine in Africa. Sometimes very bad famines approaching extinction level events. The middle Maya civilization in all probability collapsed due to drought and subsequent famine. Look at today. Africa's population levels are maintained, at least in part, due to intervention from that same international community you seem to want to blame for their ills.
#14761742
Pants-of-dog wrote:Since I am claiming that subsequent governments are bad becase of the colonial legacy, it actually supports my point that subsequent governments will ge worse after colonialism.

No, that's just a bald post hoc fallacy.
I have no idea how you would support the claim that pre-colonial local governments were more corrupt than the colonial government.

History is instructive. In India, for example, the pre-colonial governments were so corrupt that the BEIC essentially conquered India by paying off local governments to fight amongst themselves and betray each other. One thing Indians agree on is that John Company and the Raj were both more honest than the preceding native rulers.
I doubt it.

But you are, as usual, wrong.
I think the similarities between the corruption endemic to colonial governments and the corruption endemic to modern African governments are pretty clear.

I don't, other than the fact that both are unrepentantly racist.
#14761796
Truth To Power wrote:No, that's just a bald post hoc fallacy.

History is instructive. In India, for example, the pre-colonial governments were so corrupt that the BEIC essentially conquered India by paying off local governments to fight amongst themselves and betray each other. One thing Indians agree on is that John Company and the Raj were both more honest than the preceding native rulers.


I doubt you will provide evidence about Africa.

I don't, other than the fact that both are unrepentantly racist.


Okay, but the fact that you cannot see them does not mean they are not there.
  • 1
  • 15
  • 16
  • 17
  • 18
  • 19

@Ter That's great, atleast the state is prepare[…]

EU-BREXIT

[quote="Beren"]He's from Israel. :lol: [[…]

so okay I'm starting to see how this works, all th[…]

"You don't need to eat the whole tub of lard[…]