Debt Trap Diplomacy Myth - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Political issues and parties in the nations of Africa.

Moderator: PoFo Africa Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. This is an international political discussion forum, so please post in English only.
User avatar
By Fasces
#15205049
I see this guy's simplistic videos shared on here a lot when talking about the demographic and housing issues facing China, so he seems to be someone some folks on here may be willing to listen to as he deconstructs the debt trap myth.

User avatar
By AFAIK
#15205081
I'm not sure if this is deserving of it's own thread since it was already posted here;
viewtopic.php?f=114&t=179758&start=140

And would fit here;
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=181266&p=15204616#p15204616

For those who prefer reading to watching, Igor shared this article in the previous thread;
https://www.theatlantic.com/internation ... cy/617953/

In any case I like how China is viewed as a singular collective hivemind made up of 1.4 billion people acting in perfect unison. Every bank loan, every bid on a contract and every sale is part of a grand scheme to upset the apple cart.
#15205104
AFAIK wrote:In any case I like how China is viewed as a singular collective hivemind made up of 1.4 billion people acting in perfect unison. Every bank loan, every bid on a contract and every sale is part of a grand scheme to upset the apple cart.


That is because it is a fascist dictatoship where all industries are subsumed under the state.

Fascist dictatorships are run by Queen Bees.
By late
#15205114
noemon wrote:
That is because it is a fascist dictatorship where all industries are subsumed under the state.

Fascist dictatorships are run by Queen Bees.




That's the way I see it.

I think what is confusing people is that China didn't used to be that way. Just a decade ago, it was embracing the world.

But all that changed under Xi. Building artificial islands, in an attempt to claim the entire South China sea, borders on insane. And extremely aggressive, and quite premature.
#15205116
late wrote:That's the way I see it.

I think what is confusing people is that China didn't used to be that way. Just a decade ago, it was embracing the world.

But all that changed under Xi. Building artificial islands, in an attempt to claim the entire South China sea, borders on insane. And extremely aggressive, and quite premature.


My take is China is on the brink of collapse internally, and Xi and all those immoral Lebensunwertes Leben are desperate to externalize the pressure, willing to take the whole world as their hostages in the process.
User avatar
By AFAIK
#15205146
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
By late
#15205183
AFAIK wrote:
That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.



There's evidence.

I don't know why China fanboys want me to do the same dumb thing again, and again, but seriously, I am not going to do that multiple times for every topic.

There's a reason China hides so much in an era where transparency is king...
#15205221
Lol - absolutely nothing posted thus far beyond AFAIK has anything to do with the topic, just same old nonsense about "fAsCiSt cHInA." :O

late wrote:
I think what is confusing people is that China didn't used to be that way. Just a decade ago, it was embracing the world.


"the world"

Foreign investment in China is at record highs.

Chinese investment abroad is at record highs.

Chinese engagement in bilateral projects are at record highs. Chinese participation and sponsorship of international organizations are at record highs.

China is engaging with the world. What it is not doing is participating in, legitimizing, or upholding an inherently unjust global order that puts the West in a dominant and parasitic position - nor should it. There is zero reason for the West to be the political and economic center of the world in perpetuity, and trying to define the world in such a way that keeps the Global South perpetually subservient is part of the same left over colonial mindset that led Britain to Brexit.
By late
#15205250
Fasces wrote:


Lol - absolutely nothing posted thus far beyond AFAIK has anything to do with the topic, just same old nonsense about "fAsCiSt cHInA."





That's one way of telling us you're not paying attention.

When China claimed the South China sea, they pissed off every country that is on the South China sea. Since Xi, their aggressiveness has undermined Belt and Road, and much of the diplomatic progress they had previously made.

When the US Navy did it's big freedom of navigation pass through the South China sea, there were several other countries with us, countries that would not have earlier done that.
#15205256
What on Earth does South China Sea, which China has claimed since the 40s (the 11 dash line far preceding Xi or the Belt and Road), have to do with the topic of Chinese investment in Africa?

But putting that aside, if the West has some idea that Vietnam or the Philippines will send their boys to die in a war with China to preserve an exploitative global order headed by their colonizers, they have another thing coming - and they're not going to let a few sandbars in the Pacific undermine their own foreign policy. Despite being "pissed off" with China, countries such as Vietnam and Malaysia have not allowed it to impede the development of bilateral relations, including recent signings agreeing to security cooperation and the largest ever bilateral trade deal between Vietnam and a foreign country. The SCS is being used by the USA as an attempt to turn ASEAN countries against China, and while ASEAN may not be happy about it, they're also not taking the bait and it is not significantly impairing their overall relationship with China, which is continuing to strengthen.
By late
#15205296
AFAIK wrote:

That doesn't make them fascist though. Vietnam has built 10 artificial islands in the area and got invited to join TPP.




I didn't call them fascist.

Vietnam was imitating China. Since all they are claiming is what is theirs under international law, the move is defensive.
#15205314
late wrote:I didn't call them fascist.

Vietnam was imitating China. Since all they are claiming is what is theirs under international law, the move is defensive.


The Vietnamese claim does not follow UNCLOS. At least get the basic facts of the dispute right.
By late
#15205346
Fasces wrote:
The Vietnamese claim does not follow UNCLOS. At least get the basic facts of the dispute right.



"Both China and Vietnam are building up small islands in the South China Sea, a waterway known in Vietnam as the East Sea.

China has received a lot of criticism for its actions there. But Vietnam receives very little international criticism. In fact, the country even gets some support because the speed of its island-building project is slower and widely seen as defensive.

There are several differences between the ways the countries are operating in the South China Sea. First, Vietnam has held its islands for many years. In addition, the areas where work takes place are close to the Vietnamese mainland. The country avoids military projects that might appear offensive. Lastly, Vietnam belongs to the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN). That organization is known for helping its members work out any differences.

Alan Chong is an associate professor at the S. Rajaratnam School of International Studies in Singapore. He explains that Vietnam and neighboring ASEAN nations have kept to the areas near their borders around the sea.

"They've never had, I think, a standoff with any other country," Chong said. He added that within ASEAN, members do not want to cause each other trouble "so as to present a common front towards China."

Gregory Poling is director of the Asia Maritime Transparency Initiative. He said Vietnam is developing islands to make them harder for China to take without a cost, not for offensive military use. Poling said the Vietnamese goal seems to be "making these facilities more survivable, raising the cost for the Chinese to to take them."
https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/vietnam-quietly-builds-up-10-islands-in-south-china-sea/4886640.html

The Chinese claim of the South China sea was rejected in court...
#15205348
late wrote:"Both China and Vietnam are building up small islands in the South China Sea, a waterway known in Vietnam as the East Sea.

China has received a lot of criticism for its actions there. But Vietnam receives very little international criticism. In fact, the country even gets some support because the speed of its island-building project is slower and widely seen as defensive.


Taiwan makes the same claims. If the Republic of China were a perfectly subservient state to Western interests, they'd all say the Paracels and Spratleys were rightly Chinese. Your evidence is evidence of realpolitik and not a thing more.

First, Vietnam has held its islands for many years.


Vietnam has never held those islands. France has. Japan has. China has. Look up the Battle of the Paracels if you must.


None of what you go on to say is any different than what the Chinese say - you've just chosen to reject the Chinese claim as legitimate out of hand and to accept the Vietnamese claim as legitimate.

It's a dispute. There are two sides.

The Chinese claim of the South China sea was rejected in court...


A court China cannot recognize, a decision which China did not attend, and by a court which the USA also does not recognize.

I've noticed you're not even bothering to discuss the topic at hand, by the way.
#15205351
late wrote:China has received a lot of criticism for its actions there. But Vietnam receives very little international criticism. In fact, the country even gets some support because the speed of its island-building project is slower and widely seen as defensive.


As grudging as I am, I have to say that Fasces is closer to being correct here.

The West goes after China only because China is both bigger than Vietnam and being an anti-West rogue state.

Despite also being Communist, Vietnam starts to understand that they cannot resist the West forever.

EDIT: I don't think this is actually a bad thing. Rogue states deserve to be shunned or even persecuted in the international community.
Last edited by Patrickov on 31 Dec 2021 12:08, edited 2 times in total.
By late
#15205353
Fasces wrote:

None of what you go on to say is any different than what the Chinese say - you've just chosen to reject the Chinese claim as legitimate out of hand and to accept the Vietnamese claim as legitimate.




The Chinese claim encroaches on the territorial waters of a number of countries.

The aggressive expansion is offensive, and unjustified. Like Putin, Xi wants to rebuild the empire...

If you want to avoid a major war, we need to get China to play nice.
#15205355
late wrote:If you want to avoid a major war, we need to get China to play nice.


It needs two to play and I don't think this will succeed.

Xi Jinping is similar to Hitler and / or the Showa Emperor 85 years ago.

EDIT: Not that you shouldn't try, but be prepared.
#15205356
late wrote: The Chinese claim encroaches on the territorial waters of a number of countries.


Not if you accept China's territorial claims over the Paracels and Spratleys. Why have you rejected them out of hand, by the way?
#15205361
Fasces wrote:I've noticed you're not even bothering to discuss the topic at hand, by the way.


I 've noticed that whenever your position becomes desperate, your liberal use of sophistry becomes inevitable.

It was AFAIK who raised this subject in an attempt to pre-emptively insult anyone who may have disagreed with you or him, not those that you accuse of going "off-topic".

China may not recognize the Hague as a Court, but the rest of us normal people do.

Helter skelter! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vW[…]

Russia-Ukraine War 2022

Another morning, another delusional rant from Igor[…]

Feeling Biden's inflation yet?

Every country has inflation. Biden didn't cause i[…]

Primary Elections 2022

Trump is the symptom, not the cause. You gotta ki[…]