India's Mars Orbiter reaches the red planet - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14469898
Congratulations to India. A wonderful accomplishment. Welcome to the club.

This is worth every penny spent on it if for no better reason that to give millions of young Indians something about which to dream.

Somebody will always whine that the money could be better spent buying every little poor boy and girl a pair of jeans. This is nonsense. Nations need to aspire to awesome goals. It lifts the national spirit and claims the future for the youth.

Way to go India. A truly great nation.
#14469900
mikema63 wrote:Olly the brit seems to legitimately believe that NASA lies


Not 'lies', Mike, just continuous fantastic 'big number' (the bigger the number the more it impresses the gullible among us ) speculations that will keep the funding coming in thereby providing 'cosmologists' with a job for life. And it's catching on worldwide, so well done NASA!

nobody has or can go to space, and space programs are just scams.


Yes they have - they went to the moon so they say ( ); but that's a different kettle of fish to 'the red planet' . . . the moon is local stuff, Mars is deep space.

If I were rich I would offer to pay for a ticket so he could go up in xspace or whatever their calling the new tourist ride for the super rich.


And me with claustrophobia? Image I'd rather walk to Australia than fly? I'll take the money!

Drlee wrote:Congratulations to India. A wonderful accomplishment. Welcome to the club.

This is worth every penny spent on it if for no better reason that to give millions of young Indians something about which to dream.

Somebody will always whine that the money could be better spent buying every little poor boy and girl a pair of jeans. This is nonsense. Nations need to aspire to awesome goals. It lifts the national spirit and claims the future for the youth.

Way to go India. A truly great nation.


Grand Fenwick will be next! Way to go Grand Fenwick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_ ... ared_(film)
#14469905
Olly, I beg you, please no conspiracy stuff in this thread, why don't you start a new thread exposing this space conspiracy.

Anyhow interesting tweet exchange between Curiosity and MOM

Image

#14469912
fuser wrote:Olly, I beg you, please no conspiracy stuff in this thread, why don't you start a new thread exposing this space conspiracy.

Anyhow interesting tweet exchange between Curiosity and MOM


Fair comment mate - I know from past experience I'm in a minority on this subject. A minority of 1?
#14469940
@fuser, I love your stile. I will try to remember some of your derisory expressions to mix them in conversation when I want to piss somebody off. Unfortunately, there is no substance to any of what you said.

I understand of course your infatuation with space exploration - its just so glamorous in the public eye. And the spin doctors have done a good job of selling you useless programs. Believe me, because, unlike you, I have many years of experience in the space industries in Asia and in the West and in intellectual property.

But you are welcome to persist in your erroneous ways. It is of no consequence to me.

In conclusion:

- It only makes sense to develop a technology if there is a fair chance that it will result in a competitive domestic industry that will recoup the investment.

- All the achievements of Indian space development (telecom, broadcasting, Earth observation, launcher, etc.) could have been achieved better and with less money with technology that has already been developed by other space agencies.

- That a small Mars observer has been launched on a small budget is no proof of efficiency. The small ISAS space agency of the University of Tokyo has developed its own launcher and launched numerous small satellites into deep space on a very small budget indeed. That is in addition to the regular Japanese space agency NASDA, which has developed its own cryogenic engine 20 years before India and whose travails I have monitored on a daily basis. Even if Isro copies an old Russian engine and calls that copying "development" to claim the necessary budgets (and ISRO will need a lot more money in the future), it will in the end only be a useless old engine.

- While pursuing a useless space program for national prestige, India is falling back behind other countries with only 1 technological inventions made for 50 inventions made by the Chinese. China is about to beat the West in a number of technology fields while India keeps on falling back and there isn't a single field in which it excels. Great way of ruining a country.
#14469945
I see, still harping on same old trashy arguments that has already been thrashed, next time do try to read other people's argument and reply to it.

I will try to remember some of your derisory expressions to mix them in conversation when I want to piss somebody off. Unfortunately, there is no substance to any of what you said.


Sorry, but didn't meant to piss you off but you should try to be not pissed off when proven wrong.

And of course my posts have no substance as it doesn't suits your notions, that's not surprising neither a new debating trick but just for clarification, you mean to say that facts and figures = no substance and ridiculous theories and awful use of logic = substance?

I understand of course your infatuation with space exploration - its just so glamorous in the public eye. And the spin doctors have done a good job of selling you useless programs.


So now is this thread about me? Or another irrelevance tripe posted in order to hide the utter failure at responding to actual arguments? I am going with the latter.

Believe me, because, unlike you, I have many years of experience in the space industries in Asia and in the West and in intellectual property.


And another round of self applause and boasting which is again irrelevant and is not actually supplement to utter lack of counter arguments.

It only makes sense to develop a technology if there is a fair chance that it will result in a competitive domestic industry that will recoup the investment.


As already shown, Indian space program has been immensely beneficial to the country to which you are not even trying to argue against. Repeating same things again and again doesn't makes it any more truer. Seriously, this argument has been already addressed, have you even checked Antrix (marketing arm of ISRO), which has already been mentioned?

All the achievements of Indian space development (telecom, broadcasting, Earth observation, launcher, etc.) could have been achieved better and with less money with technology that has already been developed by other space agencies.


Meaningless speculations are meaningless. Anyhow, for nth time India's budget for ISRO is only 0.05%, its one of the most cheapest and her most of the program has been the most cheapest in the world. Your argument in this regard is simply ludicrous.

That a small Mars observer has been launched on a small budget is no proof of efficiency.


Of course, it is. As already said, simply saying "Nuh uh" is not an actual argument.

The small ISAS space agency of the University of Tokyo has developed its own launcher and launched numerous small satellites into deep space on a very small budget indeed. That is in addition to the regular Japanese space agency NASDA, which has developed its own cryogenic engine 20 years


Yes, India is behind Japan and uses foreign technology and hardware, who claimed otherwise? Oh, I see another irrelevant post to hide the fact that your original argument against this program has been torned to pieces.

While pursuing a useless space program for national prestige,


You really need to follow this advice: Repeating same things again and again doesn't make it truer, the whole statement is bullshit and has already been dealt with, try responding to that. Oh but repetition is much easier than actually forming an argument, right?

India is falling back behind other countries with only 1 technological inventions made for 50 inventions made by the Chinese. China is about to beat the West in a number of technology fields while India keeps on falling back and there isn't a single field in which it excels.


The fuck you are blathering about? So what if China has more inventions than India? Scrapping space program will mean India producing 50 times more inventions? Nothing but the tiny 0.05% (which for the nth time has been immensely beneficial) of India's GDP is what is holding India back? PoFo has produced some stupid shit and this is one of those.

Great way of ruining a country.


Yes, 0.05% of India's GDP in space program is ruining the country and not other host of factors (lol at space program ruining India ) which may be responsible for the lack of overall development of the country, you must be a genius to arrive to this conclusion.

But I like the fact that someone asking for facts (and not theories) has produced not one single fact related to the topic but only junk theories.

Finally as you seem to be unable to read other people's post and prefer to just repeat yourself, let me remind you once again as I said in my previous post, the logic (of yours) that if z exist, a to y are neglected is just stupid so is the logic (again yours) that any problem that exist in the country (for example your ridiculous example of paint job) can be traced to the space program is simply beyond stupid.

Let me illustrate it further, a (pick any random) problem exist in US, blame NASA, a (pick any random) problem exist in Europe, blame ESA.
Can you really see the problem with your logic or seriously going to repeat this once again?

Do try to provide better logic than this.
#14470095
I think it should be known that Atlantis has a very high opinion of the Chinese.
So high in fact that it seems as if he believes space belongs only to the Chinese and the "glorious" PRC.


As you can imagine the reality of India beating China to the red planet (and thus being the first asian nation in history to successfully reach the planet) was bound to annoy the shit out of every hard core Sinophile.
#14470199
To put things into perspective, India is:

Behind in heavy lift capabilities

Behind in Manned space flight

Behind in soft lander exploration

Behind in orbital construction

Behind in orbital consumer telecommunications technologies

Behind in space militarization

Long way to go for India to catch up as a space power. It lacks so many key capabilities. That said China went manned space launch---->2nd largest commercial satellite launcher after Russia---->GPS---->anti-satellite military capability---->space station----->soft lunar landing....in just 10 years. So it won't take long to catch up.

I hope India keeps up momentum.
#14470219
Why the hell is this thread morphing into something like India vs China?

I couldn't care less who is ahead or behind, good luck to both (and every space agency) of them and I hope to see more collaboration in future and probably something like ESA in Asia.
#14470236
fuser wrote:Why the hell is this thread morphing into something like India vs China?


Don't blame me - I withdrew when you reminded me it should be in the Conspiracies forum. But since mention has been made of two recipient countries of UK overseas aid, namely China and India getting in on the Martian act - or any other impecunious countries for that matter, recipients of it or no - if the idea is to explore Mars (whatever it is they're exploring for? Image ) then WTF don't they use any surplus Yuan/Rupees on capital expenditure for national infrastructures and social improvements, and leave NASA to provide all the answers?
#14470254
But since mention has been made of two recipient countries of UK overseas aid, namely China and India


Oh so finally this argument has been also made (the only one which was missing, you know all these arguments are pretty old), anyway India doesn't asks for aid, then Why does UK gives anyway? You know because there is no such thing as free lunch and the aid exists to get various leverages. In fact India has publicly (and politely) asked UK to withdrew all her aid, why doesn't she?

if the idea is to explore Mars (whatever it is they're exploring for?
Image
) then WTF don't they use any surplus Yuan/Rupees on capital expenditure for national infrastructures and social improvements


Yes because it can be either this or that, right? Two things can't exist simultaneously, right? More than 99.5% of money is not enough for national infrastructures and social improvement but 0.05% money is apparently magic, right? or may be, you know just a thought, national infrastructure and social improvement and all the problem associated with it are different issues that can be dealt without scrapping that tiny 0.05% or will remain at same level even after scrapping that minuscule amount.

and leave NASA to provide all the answers?


Now, as we are talking space exploration strictly, the more eyes out there, the better it is. For example Lunar Water was discovered by Indian space mission Chandrayan 1.
#14470262
fuser wrote:Oh so finally this argument has been also made (the only one which was missing, you know all these arguments are pretty old), anyway India doesn't asks for aid, then Why does UK gives anyway? You know because there is no such thing as free lunch and the aid exists to get various leverages. In fact India has publicly (and politely) asked UK to withdrew all her aid, why doesn't she?


Good question - we have a frightening national debt but we shovel 'hard-working families' taxes' at countries that have told us they don't want it. WTF? Image

Yes because it can be either this or that, right? Two things can't exist simultaneously, right? More than 99.5% of money is not enough for national infrastructures and social improvement but 0.05% money is apparently magic, right? or may be, you know just a thought, national infrastructure and social improvement and all the problem associated with it are different issues that can be dealt without scrapping that tiny 0.05% or will remain at same level even after scrapping that minuscule amount.


How are you so sure of the veracity of those percentages?

Now, as we are talking space exploration strictly, the more eyes out there, the better it is. For example Lunar Water was discovered by Indian space mission Chandrayan 1.


I didn't even know India had embarked into a lunar venture. But okay, there's water on the moon - so? Image
#14470265
How are you so sure of the veracity of those percentages?


Because I am still to be convinced by conspiracy theorists that all these data provided by governments and organizations are false. Or do you have any other set of data?

I didn't even know India had embarked into a lunar venture. But okay, there's water on the moon - so?


I am sure you can google "importance of water on moon" but I am also sure that no argument can satisfy you, so I am not going down this rabbit hole.

Anyway this isn't really advancing your original line of argument that only NASA should be doing space exploration and I think I did provided evidence for why more the eyes doing the exploration, better it is.

Good question - we have a frightening national debt but we shovel 'hard-working families' taxes' at countries that have told us they don't want it. WTF?


Its not that simple, as previously said aid is not given out of merely some "oh humanitarian concerns", UK expects various leverages in return of these aids. Remember, free lunch doesn't exist. Also, this aid is more tiny that the budget for ISRO, so I don't think scrapping this aid will solve your debt problem, you are looking at the wrong place for this particular problem.
#14470270
fuser wrote:Because I am still to be convinced by conspiracy theorists that all these data provided by governments and organizations are false. Or do you have any other set of data?


You made the assertion so you should answer it before you start asking me for answers. That's the way it works!

I am sure you can google "importance of water on moon" but I am also sure that no argument can satisfy you, so I am not going down this rabbit hole.


That sounds like backtracking to me? Image

Anyway this isn't really advancing your original line of argument that only NASA should be doing space exploration and I think I did provided evidence for why more the eyes doing the exploration, better it is.


No, my line of argument was that poor countries shouldn't be - especially using our money to do so! Anyway what are they exploring for on Mars that they need so many 'eyes'? You haven't commented on that.

Its not that simple, as previously said aid is not given out of merely some "oh humanitarian concerns", UK expects various leverages in return of these aids. Remember, free lunch doesn't exist. Also, this aid is more tiny that the budget for ISRO, so I don't think scrapping this aid will solve your debt problem, you are looking at the wrong place for this particular problem.


You obviously believe the UK government line whenever they're asked to justify it.
#14470272
fuser wrote:Repeating same things again and again ....

I have patiently tried to explain three times why it is cheaper if you don't have to pay the full development cost, why you can get better products cheaper and why, consequently, your argument about the alleged benefits is nonsense. Still, you don't understand. Instead, you go on a tirade with personal attacks. There is no point in continuing this discussion if you don't change your attitude.

Moreover, just repeating the Isro spin about the 0.05% of GDP is meaningless. The fact is that India spends more of its national budget on space than most countries. The 1.3 billion USD could be used to fund thousands of R&D programs in fields in which India can become competitive. Even if you cannot catch up with China you can at least close the gap by becoming excellent in some fields.

In space, the winner takes all. The second can still cut even, but the third makes losses. You are way behind in sixth place without hope of catching up. The same applies for Japan, but at least Japan has a competitive high-tech sector with which there are synergies. And Japan is a rich country which spends less of its GDP on Space than India, with its hundreds of millions below the poverty line.

PS: Try to understand the whole text. By cutting it into small peaces you miss the meaning. And aggressiveness is no substitute for argument.
#14470282
Olly wrote:You made the assertion so you should answer it before you start asking me for answers.


What assertion? That I believe the official number? Yes, I do and I have no reason to not believe them, hence my question do you have any reason or any other data?

Also, I am ending this debate with you Olly, once again its more about conspiracy than anything else.

Atlantis wrote:I have patiently tried to explain three times why it is cheaper if you don't have to pay the full development cost, why you can get better products cheaper and why,


And all the three times, it has been dealt with but rather than trying to deal with the counterarguments, you chose repetition as if repetation can make things truer.

consequently, your argument about the alleged benefits is nonsense.


Of course it is not, as already proved. But you as always are once again just going with your repetition spree without providing one single data or logic and simply, "Nuh-Uh" its not. I really can't stress enough that its really not enough and you need to put more effort into it. You basically failed to even address the list of benefits, so what does that mean? Not to mention that you failed to answer one single question of mine.

Still, you don't understand. Instead, you go on a tirade with personal attacks. There is no point in continuing this discussion if you don't change your attitude.


Oh, please. There has been no personal attacks, don't cry foul and if you feel so, take that into basement. And of course if I don't agree with your stance, I don't understand it, this is again a very old trick and hence my issue with you.

You in every single post such as above waste your and mine time with worthless shit like above that has nothing to do with topic while ignoring all the counter arguments and questions (apparently they are too difficult).

Moreover, just repeating the Isro spin about the 0.05% of GDP is meaningless.


No it is meaningful, this number has been provided in context where, you tried to imply that every problem that exist in the country is somehow because of Indian space program and that number is being provided to show how minuscule amount it is and hence can't be a big factor for country's other problems. Seriously, if anyone is spinning this number, its you trying to put that number in an entirely different context rather than in which it was supposed to be. This is exactly why cutting arguments in small pieces is superior to replying the whole text. The context is much more clearer.

The 1.3 billion USD could be used to fund thousands of R&D programs in fields in which India can become competitive.


Yes, India needs to spend 1.3 billion USD to fund thousands of R&D programs, I agree. But why are you so admant on getting that funding only by scrapping ISRO, that's the thing I can't understand. Why it has to be ISRO, why can't money be injected from other sources? Even when as I have already shown and you are yet to counter (seriously simply saying 'nonsense' is not an argument) that Indian Space program has been immensely beneficial to the country.

In space, the winner takes all. The second can still cut even, but the third makes losses.


So, all countries that have space programs and doesn't make in top two are idiots, right? Also, as you time and again fail to notice space program doesn't have only one aspect i.e. the market for space exploration, it has various angles as already show by my list of benefits. Even then, are you going to address, "Antrix" (marketing arm of ISRO), its not making losses you know, so excuse me if I don't believe another one of your junk theory.

Japan is a rich country which spends less of its GDP on Space than India, with its hundreds of millions below the poverty line.


And India will not be poor once her space program is scrapped, right? Are you even going to address tons of this and similar questions that has been asked in this thread before making similar idiotic remarks?

Please answer this as I don't believe one iota that you are actually worried about Indian poor and Stingrei is right, its either some sort of Sinophilia (which thinks that India and China are locked in some sort of eternal conflict) or some sort of Indophobia.

Because If you had been paying attention (rather than looking for a repetition spree), you would had noticed that my list of benefits also includes how ISRO has directly helped hundreds of millions of India poor but why bother with uncomfortable facts , right?


PS: Try to understand the whole text. By cutting it into small peaces you miss the meaning.


^ This doesn't make sense. Cutting text is good for a debate and it doesn't mean at all that anything is being missed.

And aggressiveness is no substitute for argument.


Then praise allah that I have tons of argument and not filled with repetitions, irrelevant tripes and avoidance of direct questions.
#14470344
I don't get this rabid opposition to space exploration. The US NASA budget is 0.6% of the total budget, Fuser has already pointed out how much India's space budget takes out. The space agency that represents all of europe is a mere $5.5 billion USD. China is spending 1.3 billion USD.

Seriously it's a drop in the bucket. The GSA (the american agency that deals with office supplies and the like) has an annual budget of 20.9 billion USD. We spend more on pens in the US than we spend on NASA, we spend more on pens than the space agencies of China, India, and Europe combined (7.8 billion USD).

We get a whole lot more value in scientific research and human progress from the Space agencies than we get from the GSA.

I got all the budgets off of wikipedia, you can look them up if you like.
#14470368
In space, the winner takes all.


Winner takes all what?

The inspirational value of space exploration alone is worth the miniscule budget. Besides....

What in the world makes you think that money government does not spend on space will be spent on curing cancer or building a better cell phone? It won't. Tax money in every country on the planet is nothing more than a political game piece. The politicians will put it wherever the political pressure tells them to put it.

I find it comical that some people, who are smart enough to know better, get all excited about the pittance the government spends on space exploration or keeping national parks free and ignores the fact that the government is squandering a trillion dollars on student loans or subsidizing sporting events. I am glad the government spends money on space. At least it is edifying and there is always a chance we will see a technological benefit from it. God knows the US has.
#14470941
Drlee wrote:What in the world makes you think that money government does not spend on space will be spent on curing cancer or building a better cell phone? It won't. Tax money in every country on the planet is nothing more than a political game piece. The politicians will put it wherever the political pressure tells them to put it.

The claim that ALL government spending is wasted is obviously absurd. A good part is wasted because of wrong policy decisions. The decision to develop a space industry is strategic in order to develop a competitive aerospace (and defense) industry (national prestige, technological advancement and other reasons are nothing but window dressing):

For example, despite the American lead in post-war aerospace, Europe managed to catch up with the US in heavy lift launch vehicles and wide-bodied commercial aircraft. In both fields Europe has now well over 50% of the global commercial market. Europe also has satellite manufacturers every bit as good as US manufacturers, even if they cannot succeed on the World market because US military spending allows an economy of scale Europeans cannot match. Thus, in Europe, the investment in space paid off by an internationally competitive space industry employing hundreds of thousands of highly qualified professionals in state of the art technology. This high tech industry is needed in high-cost economies because low-cost jobs migrate to the global South.

In this very restricted market, there is only business for two competitors (it would be impossible for 10 companies making Boeing Jumbo aircraft to survive in the US, for example), all others will make losses and have to go out off business. There is no hope on Earth that Japan (5th place) or India (6th place) can catch up.

OllytheBrit wrote:mention has been made of two recipient countries of UK overseas aid, namely China and India ...

Actually, a tie-up between Indian and British space development would make a lot of sense. Together they could become a major player in the space business, which neither can achieve on its own. The UK still has a lot of technology (even though the Tories butchered UK space development in the name of a free-market ideology) and the Indians can provide a near equatorial launch base.

However, while international cooperation is common in space, a long-term tie-up usually doesn’t work for political reasons (with the notable exception of European joint space development). US/EU cooperation, for example, has always been plagued by budgetary decision on either side of the Atlantic, which sometimes abort joint programs. There have also been numerous projects for launching from space ports abroad, which mostly run into trouble. They are tricky because it puts a multi-billion dollar national program under foreign jurisdiction.

fuser wrote:And all the three times, it has been dealt with but rather than trying to deal with the counterarguments, …

What I said is self-evident. It is beyond me why you don’t understand it. You are just repeating your invalid arguments. Here, the last and final time (in short phrases for dummies):
A)
- development cost = big, manufacturing costs = small
> if you don't have to pay for the development, you save big time
- e.g., heavy lift launcher development 3 to 5 billion, cost of one launch < 100 millions.
> impossible to recoup development cost even with 100 launches, certainly not with half a dozen Isro launches
- If you buy GE or Hughes satellite, the development has already been paid by NASA
- GE makes 50 satellites when Isro makes 2
> GE satellite much cheaper for you: no development cost + economy of scale.
- Isro cannot sell satellites to international customers because GE and Hughes satellite much better.
>> GE satellite much better and far cheaper
>>> Services provided by said satellites much better and far cheaper.

Consequently, there are no economic benefits and space will always be a cost factor (increasingly) without ever generating any economic benefit for India. In the end, all of that glorious national dream will only be a heap of rusty old metal, just like the untold billions worth of Soviet space development.

Instead of understanding this simple fact, you go on a polemic tirade, mechanically denying every word with a cascade of unfounded assertions to add one false assumption upon the other.

Seriously, if anyone is spinning this number, its you trying to put that number in an entirely different context rather than in which it was supposed to be.

You quote a false figure without context. This is the usual spin every space agency in the world uses to fool the public and get a bigger share of the national budget. I have put the figure into context by comparing it to other countries and by using the national budget, which is a direct reference, since the space budget is paid out of the national budget. But even for GDP, India pays more for space than most countries including Japan and China; in relation to the national budget, India pays more than all other countries except Russia and Ukraine.

And if you have 1.3 billion (or more like 2 billion if you add space related funds from other ministries including Earth Sciences and Defense) a year, you have an awful lot of money spent without any economic benefit whatsoever. The cost will increase, but there will never be any economic benefit.

Thus, it is not true that space development is cheap or economically beneficial for India.

Yes, India needs to spend 1.3 billion USD to fund thousands of R&D programs, I agree. But why are you so admant on getting that funding only by scrapping ISRO, that's the thing I can't understand.

I didn't say you have to scrap Isro (even though it’s a bureaucratic monster, but that's your business). I said space development has no economic benefit for India (see A) above). If you want to pursue it anyways, that's fine, but don't pretend there is any economic benefit. By spending the money on economically promising projects you would have a great economic benefit to your country.

And India will not be poor once her space program is scrapped, right? Are you even going to address tons of this and similar questions that has been asked in this thread before making similar idiotic remarks?

You continue with your insults, even though you are incapable of understanding the most basic of facts. I never said that India will be rich by scrapping space. I said that India can benefit from industry R&D in a number of fields to close the technology gap. Even Japan, which is far more advanced, has hardly any economic benefits from space.

its either some sort of Sinophilia (which thinks that India and China are locked in some sort of eternal conflict) or some sort of Indophobia.

Another unfounded personal insinuation. You quote an arbitrary assertion about me from an internet persona you don’t know and who very obviously doesn’t know me. Why am I Sinophile? What has that got to do with anything? Why am I Indophobe by pointing out the fact that it would be more advantageous for India to use very limited resources to develop economically beneficial programs instead of wasting that money? I said space development has no economic benefit to Japan. Does that make me Japanophobe? No, everybody in the industry knows this perfectly well. The same applies to India.

Your habit of denying every single phrase with unfounded arbitrary assertions spiced with polemics is not conductive to a constructive discussion. If you want to elicit a reply from me, I suggest you keep it factual and skip your derisory and insulting language and stop making unfounded personal insinuations, because I don't even read such posts. Your polemics are a momentous waste of time.
#14470944
But what are the endmost aims of it? Is it so we can go to Mars when global warming gets us; or over-population; the exhaustion of necessary resources and raw materials; Islamic State; post world war 3 anarchy? And if one, some, or all of these, why not find somewhere nearer we can all bugger off to?

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