[Vivisekt]

The topic of this discussion is the morality and practice of suicide. Is it cowardice, a flight from the challenges of life? Is it bravery in the face of the unknown? Both? Neither? Is suicide morally acceptable under any circumstances?


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[Korimyr the Rat]

It is my belief that suicide, itself, is a morally acceptable act, and that only certain specific circumstances can cause it to become immoral-- for instance, if by suicide a person is abandoning a family who relies upon them for support, or if by suicide a person interferes with the pursuit of justice.

The most morally acceptable suicide, in most peoples' minds, and the only morally acceptable one in many, is the decision to terminate one's life to escape the pain of a terminal illness-- if the last few weeks or months of one's natural life are to be spent in terrible pain and weakness, there is little point in delaying the inevitable.

A second, likewise admirable motive for suicide is to avoid capture by your enemies-- most relevant in people who serve in the military of their nation, or people at risk of being taken hostage. By denying your enemies their prisoner (or hostage), you have prevented them from using you against your country or allies, by denying them access to your knowledge and by denying them the opportunity to use you as a bargaining chip. This suicide, beyond being morally acceptable, is in my belief a sign of great courage and honor.

Another morally acceptable motive for suicide is to avoid great shame-- if one has made embarrassing and costly errors in judgement, I believe it acceptable for them to commit suicide in order to spare themselves shame, particularly if they take steps to make things right, as much as possible, before doing so. If a person has committed heinous crimes, I believe it is morally acceptable for that person to kill himself or herself in order to avoid the shame of a trial or criminal sentencing, as long as they make a full confession and disclose any pertinent details. They are, in essence, punishing themselves to spare society the trouble. By taking this responsibility for themselves and showing such strong contrition, they help to erase the stain on their honor caused by their crimes.

Every human being has the ownership of his own life; unlike the lives of those under his protection, or the lives of those bound to him by bonds of loyalty, his carries no responsibility to preserve his own life. He is free to preserve or extinguish his own life as he sees fit.

[Mr. Anderson]

Generally, there are specific instances which I will specify later, I feel suicide is an immoral act. Friends and family suffer greatly as a result, and not just emotionally. If the provider for a family commits suicide, his/her family could easily find itself without a source of income and end up on the streets. I do not need to explain why this is immoral.

I would like to explicitly that I am not against the right of someone to commit suicide, but I do feel the act is immoral. It would be the same as if someone walked by a man bleeding to death without doing anything to help. It would be immoral, but it should be within their rights to abstain from helping if they wish. If someone wants to end their life, they should be allowed to. No one should ever be able to specify what can and cannot be done with one's body.

The only instances I would accept suicide as not being immoral are as follows:

- Terminal illness. If someone has an illness which will result in death, they should have the right to end their life.

- Sacrifice. Korimyr's terrorist example excellent portrays this. Sacrifice could also mean entering a situation where death is unavoidable for the greater good of the many. A perfect example can be found in 9/11. Remember that plane the passengers crashed? This shows the people sacrificing their lives to save the lives of many others.

I disagree with Korimyr about suicide to avoid great shame. Suicide to avoid shame is selfish at heart, and is basically a way to avoid the consequences of our actions. What if I, a working father trying to feed his family, got fired and I killed myself to prevent having to tell the family? I do not see that as being moral (EDIT: Changed from "immoral" to "moral").

Korimyr's court example could be seen as moral, though, as an act of sacrifice. A criminal decides to kill himself to prevent putting society at risk and to help save people's time and money in a situation. Even if not a criminal's motives, these are some results of the decision.

Overall, suicide is only morally acceptable for people with terminal illnesses and in cases of sacrifice. Any other case is immoral. The right to commit suicide, though, should be maintained.

EDIT: Accidentally said "immoral" instead of "moral" in the "I disagree with Korimyr..." paragraph.

[Korimyr the Rat]

I disagree with Korimyr about suicide to avoid great shame. Suicide to avoid shame is selfish at heart, and is basically a way to avoid the consequences of our actions. What if I, a working father trying to feed his family, got fired and I killed myself to prevent having to tell the family? I do not see that as being immoral.

While I am no Objectivist, to be certain, I do not always associate selfishness with immorality. Selfishness is morally neutral unless it causes unnecessary harm to others. While you address emotional harm to others, I think it is safe to say that it is not immoral to cause others' emotional harm unless the harm is grievous, deliberate, and entirely unjustified.

To use a parallel, we are not considered immoral for terminating a romantic relationship or a friendship if that relationship is not working for us; if others cannot impose a moral obligation to associate with them, surely they cannot impose a moral obligation to remain alive if you do not wish it.

As for the example of the father leaving behind his family, I specifically noted that such a case would render suicide immoral-- not the suicide itself, but in failing to properly provide for his family. However, even a primary breadwinner can make certain that his family is provided for in the event of his demise-- even without making use of life insurance which is typically voided for suicides.

[Napuljun]

Generally, there are specific instances which I will specify later, I feel suicide is an immoral act. Friends and family suffer greatly as a result, and not just emotionally.

Life is to yoru responsability. The emotions of others which are related to you are not to your cotnrol and not yoru responsibility. Neither the emotions of others can interfere with your decisions regarding life.

If the provider for a family commits suicide, his/her family could easily find itself without a source of income and end up on the streets. I do not need to explain why this is immoral.

Frist of all, you should ask why did the person commit suicide? If for example tension from the family itself made him do suicide, thinking of the money and income instead of the person's death and reasons of suicide is more 'immroal' than his suicide itself.

I would like to explicitly that I am not against the right of someone to commit suicide, but I do feel the act is immoral.

You can not judge anybody's actions when the person is not harming anyone else. Just by thinking that suicide is wrong and imoral becuase you think its a coward act etc... will get us nowhere becuase everybody has his own reality. If you have never suffered emotionally degradating times you will of course think that suicide is something stupid done by kids who are cowards etc... If I have never ate the cabbage, I can't judge its taste by its appearance. If you wnat to know about suicide you must get into the person's boots who has/had a suicidal emotion in his life.

The only instances I would accept suicide as not being immoral are as follows:

- Terminal illness. If someone has an illness which will result in death, they should have the right to end their life.

Euthanasia. So if a person has a life of emptional degradation in which there is no hope for his problems doesn't he/she has the right to end his life?

I disagree with Korimyr about suicide to avoid great shame. Suicide to avoid shame is selfish at heart, and is basically a way to avoid the consequences of our actions. What if I, a working father trying to feed his family, got fired and I killed myself

No person commits suicide JUST becuase he/she was fired.





[Vivisekt Edit ::] Inflammatory innuendo removed. Smilies removed. Do not use sarcasm to communicate a point.

[Tingeling]

It seems to me that the general consensus in this debate is that Suicide is in itself not a negative act- rather an act that can be negative or positive depending on the context. I agree with this.

Often, the act of taking one's life is considered a negative one due to the emotional impact it has on friends and family, but, as Korimyr proposed, people's feelings are not necessarily my responsibility. I can certainly see various situations where I would consider suicide to be detrimental to the environment surrounding the 'victim', but that is, as far as I am concerned, an unfortunate necessity.

We cherish people's right to have children, even if some of those people that have children are not remotely suitable as parents. The "good" effects of said right outweights the "bad" ones. Thus, I believe suicide should be more readily accepted- many of the arguments against suicide are based on a religious ground (i.e suicide is considered hubris- one thinks the anguish one suffers is so great that it cannot be relieved by god, etc), and those that are not are often not very compatible with many of the libertarian ideals that are so prominent in our current culture.

We readily accept marriage, childbirth and other happenings, and we accept the bad parts without much fuss. I believe it is only prudent that we do the same to suicide. Yes, there are situations where I would consider suicide to be highly irresponsible, but the same can be said for marriage or adoptions. We do not consider the latter to be evil by deafult, and nor should we do such to the former.

Context matters.

[Vivisekt]

This debate has concluded.