I Don’t Vaccinate My Child Because It’s My Right To Decide.. - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14639472
Godstud wrote:Well, if you could get vaccinate them against car accidents, wouldn't you do it?

You cannot, so it's stupid to compare the two.

Most people drive unnecessarily. I often drive to the beach for instance, although I certainly don't have to. I also drive to the shop to get a snack or to the chippy if I fancy a takeaway. I could be very strict and minimise my driving to instances where I absolutely cannot avoid it, but I don't. I'm unnecessarily endangering children all the time and so do millions of other people every day, including quite likely many people in this thread.
#14639481
You do know that vaccination doesn't magically prevent one from catching the bug, do you? Your immune system is just better equipped to deal with it, so that you show no or only mild clinical signs.


This is an absurd distinction. It amounts to gibberish. Your intent is to deceive. Vaccines protect us from deadly diseases. There is no "a little bit rabies". There is no mild case of tetanus. A vaccinated child does not get a little Pertussis. Your are wrong scientifically speaking. Further. A vaccinated child virtually never produces a pathogen load capable infecting others.

I don't think vaccination is the right strategy to counter that risk. A low estimate of unknown viruses in mammals is approx. 300,000.


Meaningless.

I have not found an estimate for humans, but the number of viruses that are either unknown or cause no or unknown problems must dwarf the number we currently vaccinate against.


Meaningless. We vaccinate against known threats in given populations. I have been vaccinated against rabies, yellow fever and long ago Yersinia Pestis. None of these are likely to be of interest to the general population but they were administered to counter a particular threat. That is what we do with childhood diseases. We vaccinate against them because they are known threats.

I am old enough to remember when children died of polio. I have personally seen smallpox and treated a child dying of tetanus. I lost a friend to measles and when I was a child whooping cough and diphtheria were killers. Only a complete idiot would risk these in their child or even consider allowing their unvaccinated child to kill other children who are unable to take the vaccines.

I have no patience for this argument. None whatsoever. No appeal to authority intended but those of you who have reduced this to a question of "personal choice" or political empowerment are just being stupid. Criminally irresponsible even when you vaccinate your own child because you may influence people even stupider than you are.


However, for all of them exists the possibility that they mutate either by going from animal to human or, as you say, become more contagious or dangerous, etc..


Not true and beside the point. I don't know which high school you studied epidemiology at but you need to repeat a grade.

Insert here 2000 scholarly words about how this quadruple re-assortment virus (h1N1 2009 variant) developed. All of which would be lost on you.

I
see strong parallels between the debate about vaccinations and climate change. Plenty of emotion, not enough respect for the subject.
The proponents for and against are so selfish and one eyed in their views that they're hindered in making valid and credible arguments.


Bollocks. Get this in your head. There is absolutely no doubt, none, nada, zip...in the scientific community that vaccination saves millions of lives worldwide. This is not about someone's opinion. People no longer die of smallpox. Children need not die of measles, diphtheria or tetanus. Get that squarely in your wheelhouse.

I have to deal with this bullshit just about every single day. I have a stock answer. It goes like this:

"Thanks for your opinion about not vaccinating your child. You are stupid and criminally negligent. If it were up to me I would have the state take your children away from you and put them with someone smart enough to raise them. More importantly someone who will ensure that they have the best chance of making it to adulthood. Now go away and go to school. I recommend the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health. When you graduate with your degree in public health come back and see me. If you still feel the way you do I will then recommend that you return to the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health and get your MPH (Epidemiology). Then come back. If then you still believe that there is a case to be made for parents randomly refusing to vaccinate their children I will recommend that you return to the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health and get your Doctorate in Public Health (Epidemiology) and come see me. If you still believe as before I will know without a doubt that you are just fucking with me for fun. But at least you will know how absolutely stupid you were before you went to school."
#14639503
Well, thanks to Dr Lee and all who provided cogent arguments to counter the op.

A friend of ours' dad sold his company and joined his wife in her work with one of the big charities dedicated to the elimination of diseases. He described going to Africa to give vaccinations especially to children who's parents had walked days, and crossed the river, carrying their babies. He told his son to go with him and his mom, and said the sight, the experience was life-changing. This charity was working hard to eliminate a disease and were on the point of conquering it.

Now, what we have here is a handful of middle class parents who want for little, and who are comfortable putting their children in peril, in endangering those who cannot be vaccinated and of allowing these diseases to continue. Beggars belief.
Last edited by Stormsmith on 08 Jan 2016 08:20, edited 1 time in total.
#14639512
ness31 wrote:I see strong parallels between the debate about vaccinations and climate change. Plenty of emotion, not enough respect for the subject.

It does seem to be very ideologically driven. Individualist vs collectivist arguments.

ness31 wrote:The proponents for and against are so selfish and one eyed in their views that they're hindered in making valid and credible arguments. I'm not necessarily referring to this forum specifically, but almost anywhere the topic is canvassed. I find the whole umbrella term "anti vaxxer" offensive to rational argument, akin to "climate change denier". Labels help naught!

This comes across as a veiled insult. "I'm not necessarily referring to this forum specifically." Gee great, maybe I'm not an imbecile arguing with fools.

ness31 wrote:Regarding the children who are unable to be immunised due to medical reasons...then in my opinion it is they who should be quarantined if they deem the risk too high to mix with the general population.

The people who choose to endanger others should be quarantined not those who have no choice in the matter. If there is a death squad killing and raping those it encounters at night should we quarantine the violent criminals from society via prisons and gallows or should we tell their victims to turn their homes into prisons and obey self-enforced curfews?

Or to use a driving analogy since another poster mentioned that. If someone regularly drives dangerously- drunk, speeding, running red lights, etc. should that person be denied the oppourtunity to continue driving or should everyone else be told to stay out of his or her way?

ness31 wrote:What a sad life these people must lead due to hysteria! It's like brainwashing old people not to go out for fear they'll get mugged.

What happens to convicted muggers? Are they quarantined from society or are their victims encouraged to cower in fear?
______

The libertarian argument can be summarised like this;

I'm going to walk around like this and if you get burned it's your own fault.

Now, where did I leave my knife?
#14639538
You do know that vaccination doesn't magically prevent one from catching the bug, do you? Your immune system is just better equipped to deal with it, so that you show no or only mild clinical signs.
Drlee wrote:This is an absurd distinction. It amounts to gibberish. Your intent is to deceive. Vaccines protect us from deadly diseases. There is no "a little bit rabies". There is no mild case of tetanus. A vaccinated child does not get a little Pertussis. Your are wrong scientifically speaking. Further. A vaccinated child virtually never produces a pathogen load capable infecting others.
If you could lay off the accusations and insults, I'd be inclined to answer your post.
#14639633
This comes across as a veiled insult. "I'm not necessarily referring to this forum specifically." Gee great, maybe I'm not an imbecile arguing with fools."


Well, PoFo sentiment is obviously pro vaccination but at least it does a good job of countering. I actually would say the arguments against forced vaccination are stronger.

It's as though "medical science" ( and Christ don't I hate that term, medicine or science should be sufficient, shouldn't it?) just expects parents to accept it as the Alpha and Omega in what's best for their children.

The people who choose to endanger others should be quarantined not those who have no choice in the matter. If there is a death squad killing and raping those it encounters at night should we quarantine the violent criminals from society via prisons and gallows or should we tell their victims to turn their homes into prisons and obey self-enforced curfews?


I don't see how you can put people opposed to coerced vaccination in the same camp as raping death squads. Unless you know something I don't, then I find the hysteria extreme and a tad paranoid.
#14639640
Something about looking back at the hundreds of thousands of children that used to die every year of crippling and painful illnesses before vaccination and then having people talk about not using the most successful and complication-free form of medical treatment ever devised to prevent those crippling illnesses brings out the worst in me.
#14639672
mikema63 wrote:Something about looking back at the hundreds of thousands of children that used to die every year of crippling and painful illnesses before vaccination and then having people talk about not using the most successful and complication-free form of medical treatment ever devised to prevent those crippling illnesses brings out the worst in me.


Me too. Catherine the Great had herself and her children vaccinated against Smallpox in 1768. In those days it took real nerve to do it yet, seeing 20,000 of her subjects die of it in Siberia and having known a great many people herself who have died of it, she did the right thing. And that was in the days when the practice was fraught with danger.

There are some people who ought not to get certain vaccines. They should know who they are. Yet vaccines ARE remarkably safe.

There is a reporting system at The CDC for all vaccine accidents in the country. Anyone can report. And pay attention class, these reports are unconfirmed as to causality. They are taken as simply raw numbers. If someone wants to claim that their sister died after a vaccine even though she was crushed by an asteroid, the data is incorporated into the totals.

2014:

1,244 cases of people reported hospitalized
416 cases of people reporting a disability
122 reported deaths
388 reported life-threatening cases


So these data are for all vaccines combined. Looking at influenza shots alone over half of children and over 40% of adults receive the shots every year. If the above data were only for influenza deaths, it would be significant considering that in the 2012-2013 season the CDC estimates that 9400 deaths were prevented by flu shots. So if the data for ALL vaccinations were just for flu shots alone, an overwhelming case for vaccination would be made.

But these (remember - unrefined) data are for ALL vaccinations. Care to even hazard a guess as to how many hundreds of millions of doses are given in the US? Just make any guess that you like and look at the above.

Finally. Here is a tidbit from CDC:

Vaccines given to infants and young children over the past two decades will prevent 322 million illnesses, 21 million hospitalizations and 732,000 deaths over the course of their lifetimes, according to a new report from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
#14639943
Rancid wrote:I agree that not getting your kids vaccinated is child abuse.

Malnourished children are taken into care and their parents charged with child abuse.

If I refused to give my kids any animal products out of fear of the health risks involved and they were stunted and malnourished off to prison I would go.

ness31 wrote:I don't see how you can put people opposed to coerced vaccination in the same camp as raping death squads. Unless you know something I don't, then I find the hysteria extreme and a tad paranoid.

That was a poor example inspired by your disdain for those who fear muggers.

What's your position on reckless drivers? People should be free to do as they please in a public space and everyone else be damned?
#14640137
Well, PoFo sentiment is obviously pro vaccination but at least it does a good job of countering. I actually would say the arguments against forced vaccination are stronger.

Really? You dont think the opportunity to wipe these ghastly diseases off the face of the planet is worth pursuing?
#14640186
I actually would say the arguments against forced vaccination are stronger.


Interesting. Stronger you say.

The medical data on effectiveness is unassailable and overwhelming. Certainly you must admit that.

The epidemiology of once fatal diseases even in people with enhanced risk shows that vaccination at certain levels offers significant protection even for the unvaccinated. That is unassailable.

The cost of vaccination is paid in poor populations. The cost of vaccines is paid for children and the elderly for all Americans who are Medicaid eligible, Native American, or uninsured. Insurance companies are required to cover vaccines. (They needed absolutely no prodding on this as they would be foolish not to cover them.)

So tell me. Why do you think the argument against mandatory vaccination is stronger?
#14640418
Godstud wrote:Ness31 is just trolling you, Drlee! There's no way he is dumb enough to believe what he said is true.


True. It would be hard to imagine someone who would sacrifice the lives of innocent children on the altar of an obscure and imagined parental right.
#14641259
Stormsmith wrote: You dont think the opportunity to wipe these ghastly diseases off the face of the planet is worth pursuing?


I agree with vaccines and do them but the flaw in your/our logic is mutation. Both viral-mutation but also human-mutation. What if we are mutating ourselves the wrong way? and that is evolutionarily backwards, isn't that a possibility? Considering the ethics of corporations I would think that possibility to be quite massive.
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