Homosexuality and Population Groups - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#14960851
B0ycey wrote:Firstly, I am not asking Kaiser for anything. She responsed to me, not the other way round. Secondly, knowledge is not the same as opinion. And that is what I am getting from you. So it is not common knowledge that is culture and even less so when she provides evidence of a genetic link anyway. :roll:

#teachermyarse


Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Perhaps some editing would help.
#14960852
B0ycey wrote:Also this. You are aware that as neurons are nerves cells the way they process information is not dependent on DNA right?

Please provide evidence that how nerve cells process information is completely independent from a person's DNA.

B0ycey wrote:Hence why twins are not drones and have independent thought. If this is true then again it implies randomness if the conditions are the same.

Please show logically how this (wrong) fact implies randomness.

B0ycey wrote:I don't know who much clearer I can make my opinion!

Your opinion is presumably based on something other than randomness. Or are you trying to prove your opinion with the way you are debating in this thread? That would give us at least one data point - yourself - as evidence. :lol:

B0ycey wrote:Oh and by the way, lets not forget where this argument stems from. A comment from myself that it is possible that there is no scientific truth. This remains true unless you can disprove randomness FYI.

This is the third time you bring this up. I don't know why it seems to be so difficult for you to incorporate my responses in subsequent arguments.

If we could show that it was all completely random that would obviously be a scientific finding in itself, so your whole train of thought on "scientific truth" is completely off track anyway. I've already said this twice and I will ignore that part of your argument in the future.

Furthermore, random processes can be investigated as well, so you should keep in mind when talking about "randomness" that it does not necessarily mean entirely unpredictable.
Last edited by Kaiserschmarrn on 07 Nov 2018 22:52, edited 1 time in total.
#14960854
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Please provide evidence that how nerve cells process information is completely independent from a person's DNA.


http://www.tech-faq.com/how-do-neurons-work.html

Please show logically how this (wrong) fact implies randomness.


For a start I said imply but

A=A
If A = B and the conditions are exactly the same then B must be A or random.

A and B are not the same as A is heterosexual and B is homosexual then it is random.

Your opinion is presumably based on something other than randomness. Or are you trying to prove your opinion with the way you are debating in this thread? That would give us at least one data point - yourself - as evidence. :lol:


I am not trying to prove my opinion. I have not even tried to once. Just stating the bleeding obvious. Until there is a scientific truth the possibility there is no truth remains possible. :roll:
#14960866
B0ycey wrote:http://www.tech-faq.com/how-do-neurons-work.html

There's no evidence for your claim in that article.

B0ycey wrote:For a start I said imply but
A=A
If A = B and the conditions are exactly the same then B must be A or random.
A and B are not the same as A is heterosexual and B is homosexual then it is random.

I said "imply" too, so what's the problem?

Above you are not showing that your false claim that nerve cells operate completely independent from DNA implies randomness. You are actually starting with the assumption that DNA is identical, including the genes responsible for how nerve cells develop and operate.

Also, what makes you think that the conditions for two individuals could ever be exactly the same in the real world?

B0ycey wrote:I am not trying to prove my opinion. I have not even tried to once. Just stating the bleeding obvious. Until there is a scientific truth the possibility there is no truth remains possible. :roll:

You've made several statements of fact in this thread. Are you just throwing them around or do they have an influence in how you form your opinion?

I've edited my last post to deal for a third time with your opinion (I think?) about "scientific truth", and I'm not going to comment on it in the future unless you manage to take on board my response.

One Degree wrote:@B0ycey wouldn’t ‘randomness’ be a scientific explanation?

Yes, it obviously would be, and it would be quite a fundamental discovery, assuming B0ycey uses randomness is the sense of entirely unpredictable. It would be a "scientific truth" like any other.

(In case that's not the intended meaning, we already use the laws of probability to investigate random processes and try to explain phenomena in the real world. Their application is actually ubiquitous today.)
#14960887
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:There's no evidence for your claim in that article.


What? That mind processes are not determined by DNA sequences as neurons work by electrical impulses. OK Kaiser. Sometimes I think you will double down on anything for the sakes of absurdness.

Above you are not showing that your false claim that nerve cells operate completely independent from DNA implies randomness. You are actually starting with the assumption that DNA is identical, including the genes responsible for how nerve cells develop and operate.


It is a good job you didn't ask me to do that then isn't it. You asked me for logic to explain my explanation. Perhaps it is you who doesn't read me properly. Although I never said DNA equates to randomness so that is a strawman anyway.

Also, what makes you think that the conditions for two individuals could ever be exactly the same in the real world?


Well they can't actually. Hence there is the ability of different mental processes. Although the culture is the same. Your argument.

Yes, it obviously would be, and it would be quite a fundamental discovery, assuming B0ycey uses randomness is the sense of entirely unpredictable. It would be a "scientific truth" like any other.


Randomness is a scientific explanation. A scientific truth is absolute. Randomness is not absolute so cannot be a truth.

(In case that's not the intended meaning, we already use the laws of probability to investigate random processes and try to explain phenomena in the real world. Their application is actually ubiquitous today.)


Exactly. This. Randomness is probability of outcome without method or conclusion. I.E. without truth.
#14960922
B0ycey wrote:What? That mind processes are not determined by DNA sequences as neurons work by electrical impulses. OK Kaiser. Sometimes I think you will double down on anything for the sakes of absurdness.

Show us that neurons working by electrical impulses means that they are independent of a person's DNA. Your claim - not just an opinion this time I hope - so you'll prove it.

B0ycey wrote:It is a good job you didn't ask me to do that then isn't it. You asked me for logic to explain my explanation. Perhaps it is you who doesn't read me properly. Although I never said DNA equates to randomness so that is a strawman anyway.

Here's what you said:
You are aware that as neurons are nerves cells the way they process information is not dependent on DNA right? Hence why twins are not drones and have independent thought. If this is true then again it implies randomness if the conditions are the same.

i.e. nerve cells not being dependent on DNA was your premise which, according to you, "implies randomness" if conditions are the same. In your next post your premise turned into DNA being identical.

I think I know what you were trying to say in a muddled and confused way, but I'm not in the mood to help you out, unless you make at least a modicum of effort in explaining yourself and acknowledging your own confusion.

B0ycey wrote:Well they can't actually. Hence there is the ability of different mental processes.

Right. Not only is your above argument illogical, but it also relies on a completely unrealistic assumption.

B0ycey wrote:Although the culture is the same. Your argument.

The culture two individuals experience is not necessarily the same. As a very simple example, imagine one person moving to a rural location and one staying in a city. But even geographic separation is not necessary, as two people can, for example, have different circles of friends with different sub-cultures. Note also that this does not preclude the presence of an overall culture which may trend in a particular direction and can in turn influence how strong certain aspects of it are present in various locations across a country or the type of sub-cultures that exist.

With respect to homosexuality, it's also necessary to distinguish between at least three things: behaviour, sexual attraction and identity. A given combination of influences of genes, culture, other environmental and biological effects, and perhaps truly random events, may not act as strongly or in exactly the same way on each of these.

B0ycey wrote:Randomness is a scientific explanation. A scientific truth is absolute. Randomness is not absolute so cannot be a truth.

Exactly. This. Randomness is probability of outcome without conclusion. I.E. without truth.

I have put your term "scientific truth" in quotes in my posts precisely because I suspected that you are confused about this too, but I didn't want to get bogged down in this debate unless necessary. Science is not capable of proving with absolute certainty that something is true, so what you are saying here is not a critique of any substance with respect to this particular debate.

Furthermore, above you also confuse establishing whether something is random or not with the nature of randomness itself. This is very muddled thinking.
#14960975
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Show us that neurons working by electrical impulses means that they are independent of a person's DNA. Your claim - not just an opinion this time I hope - so you'll prove it.


Total strawman and lack of reading comprehension. I said you are aware neurons are nerve cells and the way they process information is not dependent on DNA. Hence this is my proof. I did not say cells do not have DNA. The same way the way a computer responds is by what a user programs into it not whether it is Apple or Microsoft. :roll:

Typical Kaiser and her house of strawman.

I think I know what you were trying to say in a muddled and confused way, but I'm not in the mood to help you out, unless you make at least a modicum of effort in explaining yourself and acknowledging your own confusion.


A response from another quote. So dirty tactics. But please don't help me out if you are not in the mood. You asked for logic and I gave it to you. Then you went on your own tangent and now I do even know what the fuck you are even talking about.

Right. Not only is your above argument illogical, but it also relies on a completely unrealistic assumption.


How about this for logical. To find what causes the opposite effect from two seperate experiments, first eliminate the similarities. It doesn't matter what logical approach you take to why twins don't have the same sexual orientation, this implies that sexual orientation is not cultural if that is the same condition in both upbringing.

I have put your term "scientific truth" in quotes in my posts precisely because I suspected that you are confused about this too, but I didn't want to get bogged down in this debate unless necessary. Science is not capable of proving with absolute certainty that something is true, so what you are saying here is not a critique of any substance with respect to this particular debate.


Well being that this was the reason you responded to me and the other things we are discussing is why one opinion is stronger than the other (something I don't care about in the slightest), this is the only quote worth responding to you about. So no, very important to our debate actually.

Science works on facts and explanations Kaiser. So truths and reasoning. If it relies on faith it is as useful as religion. Randomness cannot be reasoned with but it can be worked out by probability. So you will never work out a "truth" with it as results will vary within it. :roll:
#14961010
So you will never work out a "truth" with it as results will vary within it.


@B0ycey
You realize this makes no sense? There is a 50/50 probability a coin will come up heads. This is a ‘scientific truth’ based upon probability. It is also a ‘scientific truth’ that disregards the possibility it lands on it’s edge or is destroyed by lightning mid flip.
#14961028
I. Introductory Thoughts/Ancedotes.

1. My brother is queer and I love him as my brother and would do anything for him and we are generally pretty close as far as brothers go who live in different states.

2. Stereotypes regarding homosexuals are often 50/50: my brother races cars, is pro-gun, pro-life, and is generally pretty easy going and tolerant of religious people who disagree with his lifestyle. That being said, he is still fairly sensitive and exhibits many "feminine" qualities as well that might be considered stereotypically homosexual and is definitely a bernie-sanders leftist (barring the exceptions mentioned above).

3. My brother has struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts, partially related to his lifestyle and the struggles inherent in it. This is a terrible thing. I hate to see him suffer in this way and so this is very personal to me as I want to find a way to help him have a better and fuller life.

4. In spite of the above, I still do believe homosexuality is a damnable sin without repentance and real-life change. Had my brother been baptized before becoming immersed in homosexuality, I would not be permitted to associate with him; however, since he is not, I try to have a good relationship with him and be a good example to him in our interactions that he might be won by the Gospel. I also believe as a Theonomist and as a logician that such conduct is criminal on par with murder and that in an Ancap society, Christian property owners are obligated to ban homosexuality on their own property and punish any under their authority that break those laws. This is in spite of the fact, that as an Ancap, I oppose any government interfering with the sexual conduct of any individuals whatsoever (including homosexuals) or defining marriage in any way; though, I doubt homosexuality could be widespread without a state protecting it; I nonetheless oppose state interference with such persons.

II. The Argument.

With this in mind, I have an unusual perspective regarding homosexuality and try to frame the issue in terms of plain language.

The fact is, logically speaking, Homosexuality is pardoxical and self-contradictory in the relationship of how it is framed in comparison to how it is approached politically, socially, and medically. I shall now list several truisms.

NOTE: I don't necessarily embrace the worldviews behind any one of these points, but rather assume them for the sake of argument.

1. If Homosexuality is genetic, its a mal-adaptive mutation and defect according to the maxims of Darwinism.

This is because:

Survival of the fittest requires sexual production. Evolutionary anthropology argues that certain random mutations are beneficial to the species if, and only if, they aid in the specific survival of the species and are passed on sexually through natural reproduction.

Thus, if for instance, a random mutation results in a penis that cannot inseminate and therefore impregnate a female, that mutation would be mal-adaptive and therefore a genetic defect. Medically, we would treat it as such.

By contrast, if random mutation resulted in a "super-penis" where pregnancy resulted 100% of the time that insemination occurred, you could guarantee that such a mutation would perpetuate and eventually become ubiquitous in the species via natural selection.

Where does homosexuality rate on this? In the category of the super-penis or the unworkable penis? Evolutionarily speaking?

The answer is obvious, and if such is a mal-adaptive defect, how should it be approached legally and medically?

It may be a protected immutable characteristic under U.S. Law, but would it also be something to be viewed as medically inferior and damaging, like a genetic disease? Absolutely.

Indeed, it seems that it would be a moral responsibility to eventually eliminate homosexuality from human genetics as a collective priority of the human species.

Then again, under such an argument, gay marriage might be the best way to get rid of homosexuality from the human genome anyway, as being in open gay relationships (rather than pretending to be straight) would result in the eventual elimination of that mutation from the gene pool.

*An an aside, and even more paradoxically, homosexuals tend to have higher than average IQs relative to heterosexuals. One has to wonder then whether higher IQs have an overriding value in the survival of the species according to Darwinian thought.*

2. If Homosexuality is a choice, it does not qualify one for civil rights on the basis "that we can't help it we were born this way."

This is because:

If homosexuality is choice, an alternative lifestyle decision, it would not quality (in the U.S. especially); for protections under the 14th amendment. U.S. civil rights has historically argued for minority rights against majoritarian tyranny on the grounds that the minorities were minorities on the basis of immutable characteristics, like their sex (women's rights) or their skin color (racial rights).

If orientation is a choice, it is not an immutable characteristic and therefore not a protected or protectable status under Law.

3. If Homosexuality occurs based on hormonal imbalances in utero, its a birth defect that should be treated rather than tolerated.

This is because:

If homosexuality occurs because of certain hormone imbalances, that would imply that such a lifestyle that leads to higher discrimination, higher suicide rates, higher rates of depression, and is mal-adaptive, would be absolutely treatable and preventable.

So shouldn't we pursue such if that were the case? Solely on the basis of preventing and eliminating suffering under a simple utilitarian ethical calculation?

III. Conclusion:

In the end though, does it matter?

As a Christian, it is quite irrelevant as the disposition can be explained by original sin and the actions are always condemned under the Law.

Likewise, for secularists, what point is there in this debate?

No matter what homosexuality actually is, it will be promoted because traditional values are regarded as a threat to the power of the state. Families are independent hierarchies that threaten absolutism. This has always been true and was always the basis of castle doctrines worldwide since the time of Rome.

Even Engels argued that the family and private property are interrelated, if you eliminate the family, private property will eventually fall as well. Either way, they exist together as a mutually reinforcing concept.

There is a reason why no statist vision of the future, like Brave New World or 1984, includes families on their own property.

The truth doesn't matter under this paradigm, what only matters is the dialectic of history.

So lets quit wasting our time on such a topic where society has made its decision.

The die has been cast.
#14961031
To insert my own ideology. Not many were upset homosexuals had their own communities such as San Francisco. It was only the insistence every community had to bow to their demands for cake that it became a major concern. Forcing your culture upon communities who don’t accept it is wrong.
#14961088
One Degree wrote:@B0ycey
You realize this makes no sense? There is a 50/50 probability a coin will come up heads. This is a ‘scientific truth’ based upon probability. It is also a ‘scientific truth’ that disregards the possibility it lands on it’s edge or is destroyed by lightning mid flip.


No One Degree. It is a scientific truth that a coin toss will be heads or tails. It is not a scientific truth it will land on heads. If Homosexuality has a scientific truth then is will have an absolute definitive. Hence the the definition of the word Truth. :roll:

#teachermyarse
#14961090
B0ycey wrote:No One Degree. It is a scientific truth that a coin toss will be heads or tails. It is not a scientific truth it will land on heads. If Homosexuality has a scientific truth then is will have an absolute definitive. Hence the the definition of the word Truth. :roll:

#teachermyarse

You are simply confusing ‘scientific truth’ with ‘absolute truth’. Science does not deal with ‘absolute truths’.

Edit: @B0ycey
You can have many ‘scientific truths’ about influences on homosexuality without there being any ‘scientific truth’ why people become homosexual.
#14961097
One Degree wrote:You are simply confusing ‘scientific truth’ with ‘absolute truth’. Science does not deal with ‘absolute truths’.


Science strives for absolute truth one Degree. So they do indeed deal with it.

Edit: @B0ycey
You can have many ‘scientific truths’ about influences on homosexuality without there being any ‘scientific truth’ why people become homosexual.


Right, I think there is some confusion. If you are saying that if "randomness" was declared the conclusion to homosexuality in science, then yes that becomes the scientific truth. But that was not what I have been talking about. I was talking about a scientific truth on homosexuality not randomness. If there is no definitive what causes homosexuality, by definition there can be no scientific truth on what causes homosexuality.
#14961108
B0ycey wrote:Science strives for absolute truth one Degree. So they do indeed deal with it.



Right, I think there is some confusion. If you are saying that if "randomness" was declared the conclusion to homosexuality in science, then yes that becomes the scientific truth. But that was not what I have been talking about. I was talking about a scientific truth on homosexuality not randomness. If there is no definitive what causes homosexuality, by definition there can be no scientific truth on what causes homosexuality.


Are you arguing the ‘scientific truths’ and our discussions are invalid because we don’t already know the ‘absolute truth’? Science is a progression.
#14961112
One Degree wrote:Are you arguing the ‘scientific truths’ and our discussions are invalid because we don’t already know the ‘absolute truth’? Science is a progression.


No One Degree. I gave a flippant comment that there maybe no scientific truth to homosexuality which was taken way too seriously by others.

Whether Science thinks it should waste it's time on this subject to progress a conclusion or not is not really a concern of mine. Sure they might find an actual cause. They also might not. I don't know. But my opinion is randomness. Not that any of this really matters.
#14961113
B0ycey wrote:No One Degree. I gave a flippant comment that there maybe no scientific truth to homosexuality which was taken way too seriously by others.

Whether Science thinks it should waste it's time on this subject to progress a conclusion or not is not really a concern of mine. Sure they might find an actual cause. They also might not. I don't know. But my opinion is randomness. Not that any of this really matters.


Ah, I can understand that position. It doesn’t really matter to me either as I still believe a community gets to choose what is acceptable no matter what science says.
#14961153
B0ycey wrote:Total strawman and lack of reading comprehension. I said you are aware neurons are nerve cells and the way they process information is not dependent on DNA. Hence this is my proof.

No strawman or lack of reading comprehension. Your correction doesn't make my request for evidence/proof less valid. If I asked you to show us that neurons working by electrical impulses means that the way they process information is independent of a person's DNA, you'd be in just the same pickle. The funny thing is that you don't realise this. :lol:

B0ycey wrote:I did not say cells do not have DNA.

I never claimed you said this.

B0ycey wrote:The same way the way a computer responds is by what a user programs into it not whether it is Apple or Microsoft.

Programs must actually differ depending on a computer's architecture and/or operating system, so they are decidedly not independent of the way a computer processes information. You are doing a good job in poking holes in your own claim.

B0ycey wrote:A response from another quote. So dirty tactics. But please don't help me out if you are not in the mood. You asked for logic and I gave it to you. Then you went on your own tangent and now I do even know what the fuck you are even talking about.

I requested a logical argument for your claim and I even quoted the relevant post for your convenience. The fact that you failed and your confusion are not my fault.

B0ycey wrote:How about this for logical. To find what causes the opposite effect from two seperate experiments, first eliminate the similarities. It doesn't matter what logical approach you take to why twins don't have the same sexual orientation, this implies that sexual orientation is not cultural if that is the same condition in both upbringing.

I've addressed culture and how it can easily differ even for people growing up in the same family in my previous post. Is it really too much to ask that you at least take on board my most recent response to you?

B0ycey wrote:Well being that this was the reason you responded to me and the other things we are discussing is why one opinion is stronger than the other (something I don't care about in the slightest), this is the only quote worth responding to you about. So no, very important to our debate actually.

This is very tiresome, but here's what you said:
You are assuming there is a scientific truth. If Homosexuality had a link to something we would have identified that link by now. We would have tested and reached a conclusion and all this wouldn't even need debating.

i.e. you asserted that our knowledge with respect to homosexuality to date is exhaustive.

B0ycey wrote:Science works on facts and explanations Kaiser. So truths and reasoning. If it relies on faith it is as useful as religion. Randomness cannot be reasoned with but it can be worked out by probability. So you will never work out a "truth" with it as results will vary within it. :roll:

Science tries to explain real world phenomena which always involves observations and measurements, and just the measurements in any scientific experiment or study introduce some uncertainty. That is, even at its most basic level science does not give you "truth" as you seem to understand it.

Studying the nature and outcomes of random processes involves reasoning and we can make predictions based on them.

You might as well just stay away from science altogether, as it will never give you the kind of "truth" you desire, which is why I told you in my last post that your criticism is of no relevance to this specific debate as it applies to the whole of science. Again, there is no substance to your critique in this particular case. None.
#14961184
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:No strawman or lack of reading comprehension. Your correction doesn't make my request for evidence/proof less valid. If I asked you to show us that neurons working by electrical impulses means that the way they process information is independent of a person's DNA, you'd be in just the same pickle. The funny thing is that you don't realise this. :lol:


It appears I am not the only user to suffer from your dirty tactics. As this is the first time you have typed in "electrical impulses", I don't know how you can claim your asked about it.

The rest of your bollocks (and it is just that) isn't even worth me wasting my time with a response because in all honesty as it has nothing to do with what you first responded me about in the first place and something I have repeatedly said I don't give a fuck about.
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