Parental rights and vaccines - Page 25 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14983933
What was it, 34 cases of measles in the Washington State area? And then another suspected 9 cases in a neighboring area?

I know it isn’t terribly scientific but I would study the outcomes of these children after having got measles. Do they end up permanently disabled? Do they have a higher immunity to measles and other diseases? What is the risk/benefit to getting vaccinated as opposed to letting the disease run its course.
Highly contagious yes, but it gets isolated fairly quickly.
Last edited by ness31 on 29 Jan 2019 14:10, edited 1 time in total.
#14983939
Sivad wrote:Most of those 500,000 deaths are due to poverty and underdevelopment related issues, the mortality rate is nowhere near that in developed countries. Serious complications from measles occur at a rate of like 1 in 300,000 in developed countries.

The VAERS numbers are just for the US, your number is for the entire world and the VAERS number is likely much lower than what is actually occurring.

Add to that the fact that vaccines haven't been properly studied for susceptibility subgroups and it's not clear that the MMR is a warranted public health intervention.

Nonsense. Prior to the vaccine, in the US there were 3M-4M cases of measles. In fact, by the time people became adults, virtually 90%+ had had measles. It is true that it is not a terribly lethal disease but for something in terms of numbers with a mortality of ~0.2%. But when you have 3-4 MILLION cases this disease per year that yields 6-8thousand deaths per year. Of a totally preventable disease. That is not to mention, the myriad of complications. Including neurological disability, etc.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/downloads/m ... ideset.pdf

ness31 wrote:I know it isn’t terribly scientific but I would study the outcomes of these children after having got measles. Do they end up permanently disabled? Do they have a higher immunity to measles and other diseases? What is the risk/benefit to getting vaccinated as opossed to letting the disease run its course.
Highly contagious yes, but it gets isolated fairly quickly.

We know of this. It is documented, this is not a rare disease. This disease was as common if as chicken pox. Generally speaking, not a particularly deadly disease, but again, given its highly contagious nature and high prevalence/incidence it is absurd to even consider non-vaccinations which are safe and effective. Yes, you could have an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine and you could die. Extremely rare. You could also have the same reaction eating nuts, chocolate, shrimp..... and the list goes on. If you are willing to avoid anything that has the same rate of complication as the measles vaccine, you would have to stay inside a bubble in the bottom of a sterile bunker or something. ANd even then you might have a high chance of dying of asphyxia if the ventilation system fails :p
#14983942
The thread is about parental rights. The risk from measles in the US today is virtually non existent. There is no reason to coerce parents into vaccination. If the situation changes then you won’t need to coerce them.
#14983944
One degree wrote:The risk from measles in the US today is virtually non existent.
That risk changes if people start to not vaccinate. It's also a preventable disease, with a simple vaccination.

In places where vaccinations have dropped, measles and other diseases, have popped up. These diseases are not gone. They are still there.

One degree wrote:There is no reason to coerce parents into vaccination.
:eh: Yes, there is. Public safety. Child safety. There are lots of reasons.
#14983946
Godstud wrote:That risk changes if people start to not vaccinate. It's also a preventable disease, with a simple vaccination.

In places where vaccinations have dropped, measles and other diseases, have popped up. These diseases are not gone. They are still there.

:eh: Yes, there is. Public safety. Child safety. There are lots of reasons.


Who is harmed if they don’t vaccinate? Only the unvaccinated and then the risk is very small. Give me a reason why a parents decision should not stand under these conditions? The threat of serious injury or death is unbelievable low. This should not even be a discussion except we have so many people who think they should makes choices for others. Vaccinate your own kid and you have nothing to worry about. I don’t need you to worry about my kids.
#14983948
One Degree wrote:Who is harmed if they don’t vaccinate?
The public health. Look up Herd Immunity and stop saying stupid shit.

Also, the child can be harmed if they catch the disease. If you choose to not vaccinate your child and they get the disease for which there is a vaccine, you should be charged with Child Endangerment, and Negligence, at the very least.

One Degree wrote:Give me a reason why a parents decision should not stand under these conditions?
They endanger the public health. They put their child at unnecessary risk. It's negligent, and bad parenting to put your child's health at risk for nothing, or because you're too stupid to know better. Ignorance is not an excuse.

One Degree wrote:Vaccinate your own kid and you have nothing to worry about. I don’t need you to worry about my kids.
Developing countries, for the most part have vaccination programs where the children who are not vaccinated are not allowed to attend school. Again, look up the term Herd Immunity.

A very few cannot have vaccinations, due to poor immune systems, genetics, etc. and the herd immunity protects them... that is until enough people stop taking vaccines... Because they're STUPID. :knife:
#14983954
Pants-of-dog wrote:Because you are quoting an anti-vaccination website, I am going to need to look at the sources used by this opinion piece.


Here are the sources:

2 FDA.gov. ProQuad. Product Information Sheet. Oct. 27, 2015. Online. (Accessed March 2016)

3 FDA.gov. MMRII. Product Information Sheet . Dec. 2007. Online. (Accessed March 2012)

4 FDA.gov. MMRII. Product Information Sheet . Dec. 2007. Online. (Accessed March 2012)

5 FDA.gov. ProQuad. Product Information Sheet. Oct. 27, 2015. Online. (Accessed March 2016)

6 Merck & Co., Inc. MMRII (Measles, Mumps, Rubella Virus Vaccine Live). 2014.




So, if you think the VAERS data shows a causal link between the vaccines and the deaths, you are using the data incorrectly, according to the people who collected the data.



Merk and the FDA say there's a link. You're the one using the data incorrectly. You're always the one using the data incorrectly.


Here's an article published in Pediatrics:
Pediatrics. 1998 Mar;101(3 Pt 1):383-7.

Acute encephalopathy followed by permanent brain injury or death associated with further attenuated measles vaccines: a review of claims submitted to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

Weibel RE1, Caserta V, Benor DE, Evans G.


Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

To determine if there is evidence for a causal relationship between acute encephalopathy followed by permanent brain injury or death associated with the administration of further attenuated measles vaccines (Attenuvax or Lirugen, Hoechst Marion Roussel, Kansas City, MO), mumps vaccine (Mumpsvax, Merck and Co, Inc, West Point, PA), or rubella vaccines (Meruvax or Meruvax II, Merck and Co, Inc, West Point, PA), combined measles and rubella vaccine (M-R-Vax or M-R-Vax II, Merck and Co, Inc, West Point, PA), or combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccine (M-M-R or M-M-R II, Merck and Co, Inc, West Point, PA), the lead author reviewed claims submitted to the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

METHODS:

The medical records of children who met the inclusion criteria of receiving the first dose of these vaccines between 1970 and 1993 and who developed such an encephalopathy with no determined cause within 15 days were identified and analyzed.

RESULTS:

A total of 48 children, ages 10 to 49 months, met the inclusion criteria after receiving measles vaccine, alone or in combination. Eight children died, and the remainder had mental regression and retardation, chronic seizures, motor and sensory deficits, and movement disorders. The onset of neurologic signs or symptoms occurred with a nonrandom, statistically significant distribution of cases on days 8 and 9. No cases were identified after the administration of monovalent mumps or rubella vaccine.

CONCLUSIONS:

This clustering suggests that a causal relationship between measles vaccine and encephalopathy may exist as a rare complication of measles immunization.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9481001


and:



As of March 1, 2016, there have been 972 claims filed so far in the federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) for 57 deaths and 915 injuries that occurred after MMR vaccination. There have been 35 claims filed with the VICP for 1 death and 34 injuries that occurred after MMR-V vaccination. Of that number, the U.S. Court of Claims administering the VICP has compensated 377 children and adults, who have filed MMR vaccine injury claims and 16 children and adults, who have filed MMR-V claims.17

One example of an MMR vaccine injury claim awarded compensation in the VICP is the case of Madyson Williams. Madyson was growing and developing normally until May 12, 2006, when she was given MMR, varicella zoster and Hib vaccines simultaneously during an office visit. Six days later, she developed seizures and died.

On Oct. 10, 2008, the Department of Health and Human Services conceded Madyson died from a reaction to MMR vaccine and her parents were awarded $250,000, the maximum amount allowed for an acknowledged vaccine-related death in the VICP.18, 19



17 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Statistics Reports. Claims Filed and Compensated or Dismissed by Vaccine —March 1, 2016. National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. March 1, 2016.

18 Office of Special Masters. United States Court of Federal Claims. Garry and Rachel Williams, as Legal Representatives of Madyson Lee Williams . Oct. 10, 2008. Online. (Accessed March 2012)

19 KansasCity-Law.com. Verdicts and Settlements . Williams, Minor. v. Secretary of HHS--$250,000 Settlement. Oct. 2008. Online. (Accessed March 2012)



The question you need to ask yourself is: did the NVIC intentionally misled people, or are they simply too stupid to check these things?


No, but apparently you did and Noemon Edit: Rule 2 :lol:
Last edited by Sivad on 29 Jan 2019 01:55, edited 1 time in total.
#14983960
Godstud wrote:The public health. Look up Herd Immunity and stop saying stupid shit.

Also, the child can be harmed if they catch the disease. If you choose to not vaccinate your child and they get the disease for which there is a vaccine, you should be charged with Child Endangerment, and Negligence, at the very least.

They endanger the public health. They put their child at unnecessary risk. It's negligent, and bad parenting to put your child's health at risk for nothing, or because you're too stupid to know better. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Developing countries, for the most part have vaccination programs where the children who are not vaccinated are not allowed to attend school. Again, look up the term Herd Immunity.

A very few cannot have vaccinations, due to poor immune systems, genetics, etc. and the herd immunity protects them... that is until enough people stop taking vaccines... Because they're STUPID. :knife:


Well, I tried to have an honest discussion. You used the normal deflection and name calling. You obviously don’t even understand what ‘herd immunity’ is.
Saying ‘the public suffers’ is a pathetic deflection. Only the unvaccinated will get measles and they will be uncomfortable for 2 to 3 weeks. If measles do start becoming common then more parents will vaccinate. There is a reason to educate but there is no reason to coerce.
Calling someone a bad parent for not vaccinating against something that is so unlikely to harm their child is just more ‘assumed superiority’ and insisting everyone must make the decisions you decide. They are just as capable as you of making decisions. They are not stupid or bad parents if they are making an informed decision.
#14983964
One Degree wrote:Well, I tried to have an honest discussion. You used the normal deflection and name calling. You obviously don’t even understand what ‘herd immunity’ is.
Saying ‘the public suffers’ is a pathetic deflection. Only the unvaccinated will get measles and they will be uncomfortable for 2 to 3 weeks. If measles do start becoming common then more parents will vaccinate. There is a reason to educate but there is no reason to coerce.
Calling someone a bad parent for not vaccinating against something that is so unlikely to harm their child is just more ‘assumed superiority’ and insisting everyone must make the decisions you decide. They are just as capable as you of making decisions. They are not stupid or bad parents if they are making an informed decision.

You are wrong and dangerous. Vaccines are not 100% effective (yes shocker) so if a child does not get the vaccine, he nows can potentially become a petri dish for the rest of the kids. Imagine that the vaccine is 50% effective (some are much lower, some are much higher). If now all of the sudden you get a non- vaccinated children that catches the disease, he is exposing the rest of the children to this pathogen. Sure, they have a much lower chance of catching it now since they are vaccinated, but it is still a higher risk than if the non-vaccinated kid was vaccinated.
Also.... there are children that even though they are vaccinated, they never develop immunity because their immune system is kind of funny, and there are also children who cannot receive certain vaccines because of medical reasons.
All in all, your statement is pretty ignorant.
Here, watch a video.

#14983967
XogGyux wrote:You are wrong and dangerous.


Tell me the odds of a child in the US being seriously harmed by measles today? Would you agree amazingly close to zero?
It is really pathetic someone with your education enjoys trolling and posting one line posts that offer nothing, especially in a thread that is your home turf.
#14983971
One Degree wrote:Tell me the odds of a child in the US being seriously harmed by measles today? Would you agree amazingly close to zero?
It is really pathetic someone with your education enjoys trolling and posting one line posts that offer nothing, especially in a thread that is your home turf.

Yes. Now drop the vaccination rate and ask the same question.

That's a stupid statement. If you are taking blood pressure medication and your blood pressure is controlled and you decide to stop taking blood pressure medication because it is controlled when receiving blood pressure medication... do you see where I am going?
The number is amazingly small, PRECISELY because the vaccination rate is high. You start playing saying "its not big deal, dont vaccinate, vaccines cause autism" and poof all of the sudden the number increases and it is no longer amazingly close to zero.
#14983976
XogGyux wrote:Yes. Now drop the vaccination rate and ask the same question.

That's a stupid statement. If you are taking blood pressure medication and your blood pressure is controlled and you decide to stop taking blood pressure medication because it is controlled when receiving blood pressure medication... do you see where I am going?
The number is amazingly small, PRECISELY because the vaccination rate is high. You start playing saying "its not big deal, dont vaccinate, vaccines cause autism" and poof all of the sudden the number increases and it is no longer amazingly close to zero.


That is not a valid comparison. I need to make the decision today to vaccinate or not based upon available information. I can change my decision at any time if the available information changes. This is highly unlikely to cause any harm. It is popular today to be frightened of unlikely events. I am not frightened of unlikely events. I grew up when measles were just another childhood disease and everyone got them (except me :)). No one was picking up bodies in the streets. There is no valid reason for coercion at this time.
#14983978
Sivad wrote:Here are the sources:

2 FDA.gov. ProQuad. Product Information Sheet. Oct. 27, 2015. Online. (Accessed March 2016)

3 FDA.gov. MMRII. Product Information Sheet . Dec. 2007. Online. (Accessed March 2012)

4 FDA.gov. MMRII. Product Information Sheet . Dec. 2007. Online. (Accessed March 2012)

5 FDA.gov. ProQuad. Product Information Sheet. Oct. 27, 2015. Online. (Accessed March 2016)

6 Merck & Co., Inc. MMRII (Measles, Mumps, Rubella Virus Vaccine Live). 2014.

Merk and the FDA say there's a link. You're the one using the data incorrectly. You're always the one using the data incorrectly.


No.

Product information sheets do not contain death statistics. Here is the product information sheet for MMR II:
https://www.fda.gov/downloads/Biologics ... 123789.pdf

The only mention of death is found on page 8 of 11:
    Death from various, and in some cases unknown, causes has been reported rarely following vaccination with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines; however, a causal relationship has not been established in healthy individuals (see CONTRAINDICATIONS). No deaths or permanent sequelae were reported in a published post-marketing surveillance study in Finland involving 1.5 million children and adults who were vaccinated with M-M-R II during 1982 to 1993.{61}

The source was VAERS. And VAERS clearly states that causality cannot be inferred.

Here's an article published in Pediatrics:


Are you changing your argument now?

Previously, you had argued hundreds of deaths were caused by the vaccine.

Now you seem to be saying that eight deaths may have been caused by the vaccine.

and:


As I already pointed out in this thread or the Zimmerman one, the VICP compensates all table injuries and does not require evidence that the vaccine actually caused the adverse reaction.
#14983981
One Degree wrote:That is not a valid comparison. I need to make the decision today to vaccinate or not based upon available information. I can change my decision at any time if the available information changes. This is highly unlikely to cause any harm. It is popular today to be frightened of unlikely events. I am not frightened of unlikely events. I grew up when measles were just another childhood disease and everyone got them (except me :)). No one was picking up bodies in the streets. There is no valid reason for coercion at this time.

Watch the clips.
#14984039
XogGyux wrote:Yes. Now drop the vaccination rate and ask the same question.


The rate of death for most of the illnesses for which we now have vaccines was trending down way before their introduction, according to projections the death rate would be roughly the same for these illnesses today had no vaccines ever been developed.

Image


Interestingly, Scarlet Fever and other diseases followed this same rate of mortality decline, but were never vaccinated for.

One has to wonder if correlation regarding vaccines and decreased morality equals causation. The evidence seems to show that this is not the case.

Godstud wrote:Also, the child can be harmed if they catch the disease. If you choose to not vaccinate your child and they get the disease for which there is a vaccine, you should be charged with Child Endangerment, and Negligence, at the very least.


A child can be harmed from riding a bike and climbing a tree and are far more likely to be harmed or killed by such activates than if they got the chicken pox! :lol:

Given the relative risk, it should be illegal to lets kids ride bikes or climb trees and more legal to seek exemption from vaccination.

However, since this is stupid and since good parenting is about letting kids get hurt and experience life as a way of development, neither of these should be ipso facto child abuse.

Further, the LAW in more than half of European countries and most of the states in the United States allow for exemptions, is more than half of the developed world arguing for child neglect? :eh:

The disparities between different countries of what should even be required also makes the mandate argument for any particular developed nation seem crazy.

For instance, should Canada follow the U.S.'s schedule? They don't, so does that mean that they are threatening public health? If not, then why would a U.S. citizen who prefers Canada's model be a threat to public health? :eh: They can't both be right, so either the Canadian schedule promotes child abuse, or the U.S. model promotes child abuse as they don't require all of the same vaccines and dosages.

If you think that the U.S., Canada, and UK can disagree on what is a safe schedule without promoting child abuse, why can't a parent in consultation with their physician likewise customize their own schedule? The logic is not consistent here.

XogGyux wrote: Generally speaking, not a particularly deadly disease, but again, given its highly contagious nature and high prevalence/incidence it is absurd to even consider non-vaccinations which are safe and effective. Yes, you could have an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine and you could die. Extremely rare. You could also have the same reaction eating nuts, chocolate, shrimp..... and the list goes on


That's correct, and parents have the right to limit exposure of their children if they fear such a risk regarding certain foods etc; however there is no widespread preemptive testing for reactions when it comes to vaccines and yet we do not allow them the right to avoid certain vaccines out of fear of sucha reaction like we do for peanuts or shrimp. There probably should be such a right, so that is not an argument for a universal mandate, quite the opposite.

Anecdotally, my oldest child had a reaction to a vaccine and it was diagnosed by a pro-vax doctor, he developed a respitory illness and we had to have him on a nebulizer as an infant because of it.

I have a question for you @XogGyux

Lets say General Motors developed a car that was regarded by automotive experts as being the safest car yet designed in human history, but in spite of this, GM was being sued for faulty brakes on a regular basis with this particular vehicle and was on the verge of going bankrupt, but was then rescued by the U.S. government which blocked all future law suits and they (the U.S. Gov) further passed a law requiring you to buy this GM vehicle, how would you feel about buying this GM vehicle?
#14984049
ness31 wrote:The Big Pharma Bailout :lol:

Pharmaceutical companies don’t have all their eggs in the vaccine basket. They’re smarter than that..


Actually, this is a problem for Big Pharma, at least in the US. The combination of the length of time to bring a product to market and limits on exclusive rights to existing products does result in them relying on income from a very few products until others make it through the pipeline. A few failures in the pipeline can mean years of budget cutting and reliance on one or two products.
#14984050
One Degree wrote:Actually, this is a problem for Big Pharma, at least in the US. The combination of the length of time to bring a product to market and limits on exclusive rights to existing products does result in them relying on income from a very few products until others make it through the pipeline. A few failures in the pipeline can mean years of budget cutting and reliance on one or two products.


Well, I for one don’t buy generic :p
#14984053
Victoribus Spolia wrote:The rate of death for most of the illnesses for which we now have vaccines was trending down way before their introduction, according to projections the death rate would be roughly the same for these illnesses today had no vaccines ever been developed.

Image


Interestingly, Scarlet Fever and other diseases followed this same rate of mortality decline, but were never vaccinated for.

One has to wonder if correlation regarding vaccines and decreased morality equals causation. The evidence seems to show that this is not the case.


Wonder all you want. There is plenty of evidence for vaccine safety and efficacy. Find me an equal amount of high quality studies showing otherwise and we can have a discussion on equal footing. As it stands you have a vast body of scientific, medical evidence backed out by all major physician societies, goverments and the fact that many of these diseases have been significantly reduced thanks to vaccination vs your evidence which are a couple of emotional parents with anecdotal stories and a whole bunch of conspiracy theories.

That's correct, and parents have the right to limit exposure of their children if they fear such a risk regarding certain foods etc; however there is no widespread preemptive testing for reactions when it comes to vaccines and yet we do not allow them the right to avoid certain vaccines out of fear of sucha reaction like we do for peanuts or shrimp. There probably should be such a right, so that is not an argument for a universal mandate, quite the opposite.

Anecdotally, my oldest child had a reaction to a vaccine and it was diagnosed by a pro-vax doctor, he developed a respitory illness and we had to have him on a nebulizer as an infant because of it.

Never have I said parents should have their rights limited. The fear itself is irrational and has to be addressed. THe goverment represents the people and thus the goverment has the right to put limitations in such a way that protect the people's interests and safety. As such, the goverment should have do everything short of forcefully obligating parents to encourage high vaccination rates such as no kid that is unvaccinated for reasons other than medical reasons should be allowed on public schools. Parents of kids that are unvaccinated have to disclose this information to private schools and care centers which in term shall disclose this information (without revealing patient identy) to other parents so that they can also make informed decisions.
In other words, you should have the right to not vaccinate your kid. But you do not have the right to expose other kids to your kid when your kid for no good reason might be a carrier of preventable diseases.
This is no radical shit. The goverment prohibits the release of patients with non-treated active tuberculosis for a reason. As a parent, how would you feel if I bring my kid with active TB to the school your child attends to?

Lets say General Motors developed a car that was regarded by automotive experts as being the safest car yet designed in human history, but in spite of this, GM was being sued for faulty brakes on a regular basis with this particular vehicle and was on the verge of going bankrupt, but was then rescued by the U.S. government which blocked all future law suits and they (the U.S. Gov) further passed a law requiring you to buy this GM vehicle, how would you feel about buying this GM vehicle?

Silly analogy unless you can prove the GM vehicles are significantly safer to the people driving it as well as other drivers and pedestrians and that other brands are unable to match this degree of safety for some odd reason. The goverment already puts limitations on companies and thats why modern cars have airbags, crumbling zones, breaking distance specifications, seatbelts etc. And the goverment already prohibit sales of those vehicles that do not pass the safety standards, so your analogy not only is incomplete but actually does not support your point either.
#14984060
@XogGyux , You are using the disingenuous argument that the unvaccinated are somehow a threat to the vaccinated. You imply it knowing it is not true. Repetition does not make this argument any more reasonable. If you vaccinate your children then you have no reason to fear the unvaccinated.
No matter how you try to distort this, you are demanding others agree with your choice even though their choice has no effect on you.
As you admitted, there is no reason to fear measles at this time so there is no reason to vaccinate at this time.
The small outbreak in Washington resulted in a call for people to get vaccinated. They will and the outbreak will be contained.
I can make ‘all encompassing arguments’ too that don’t reflect the complete reality. Vaccination is mainly needed so diseased people can travel freely. Place limits on travel and there is little need to inject our children.
I am waiting to see if this Measles outbreak is related to illegals. They already admitted it started from someone traveling to the area. This is how it happens. Travel.
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