[SolarCross]

Vouchers, tuition tax credits, and scholarships are being awarded in a growing number of states and big cities as a way of allowing more children to attend private schools, rather than government-operated public schools. Wherever these programs are implemented, critics claim that vouchers or tax credits won’t give children from poor families access to private schools because the costs of such schools are high. But are private schools really prohibitively expensive? Not according to the numbers.

The most recent figures available from the U.S. Department of Education show that in 2000 the average tuition for private elementary schools nationwide was $3,267. Government figures also indicate that 41 percent of all private elementary and secondary schools — more than 27,000 nationwide — charged less than $2,500 for tuition. Less than 21 percent of all private schools charged more than $5,000 per year in tuition. According to these figures, elite and very expensive private schools tend to be the exception in their communities, not the rule.

Many people may think private schools are expensive because the costlier private schools also tend to be the most well known. For example, many in Houston have heard about St. John’s or Tenney High School, where tuition runs over $13,000 a year. But fewer Houstonians have likely heard of Southeast Academy, Woodward Acres, or Pecan Street Christian Academy, all of which charge less than $3,000 per year, well below the city’s private school average of $4,468.

Average private school tuition in other cities tells the same story: a large number of moderately priced private schools with a few very expensive, well-known exceptions. Median private elementary school tuition in Denver is $3,528. In Charleston, $3,150. In Philadelphia, $2,504. In New Orleans, $2,386.

Anthony Williams, mayor of the District of Columbia (where Congress is considering a school voucher program with voucher amounts of up to $7,500), recently stated, mistakenly, that “most private school tuitions run in the five figures — far beyond what is contemplated for the voucher program.”

In truth, according to a recent survey, the median per student cost for private elementary schools in the District of Columbia is $4,500, well below the mayor’s “five figures.” Only 39 percent of D.C. private schools have tuitions of $10,000 or more.

In all of these cities, the average private school cost is significantly less than the amount spent for each student in public schools. A voucher or tax credit worth the same amount spent per student in public schools would easily give parents access to the bulk of private schools available in their communities. With more parents able to afford private schools, new schools would open to accommodate the increased number of students.

In Florida, where students can attend private schools under several choice programs, the number of private schools in the state is increasing as school choice programs become more predominant. The percentage of Florida students enrolled in private schools has risen from 9.31 percent in 1992 to 12.5 percent in 2001. According to the Florida Department of Education, 353 new private schools have opened their doors since May 2000. Private entrepreneurs and philanthropic foundations have poured more than $76 million into Milwaukee’s private schools since school choice was implemented there. This growth in private schools underscores the fact that the private education sector responds to increased consumer demand.

Existing school choice programs have already provided evidence of the benefits of school choice both for those students that switch to better schools and for those who stay in public schools. Studies in Florida, Milwaukee, San Antonio, Arizona, and Michigan have all shown that, in areas where school choice is available, public schools, in one way or another, improve in significant ways, including test scores and parental involvement.

Fostering a more competitive market in education is critical if the quality of education in inner cities and elsewhere is to be improved. Government monopolies — and that includes public schools — tend to serve many or most of their clients poorly, especially in a large and diverse society. Giving parents access to a growing, affordable, and diverse supply of private schools will help ensure that the current generation of American children receives a quality education.

@Thomasmariel

Noemon Edit: Title Thread Changed and text in quotes added.

[Red_Army]

They would not.

[One Degree]

The success of education is determined by the students, not the school. Those choosing private education and paying for it obviously have more interest in education.

[Pants-of-dog]

Private schools do not yield better for less.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Homeschooling does.

Homeschooling is the cheapest non-public option, per student costs are lower that the tax-funds allocated for public education, and home-schoolers academically outpace both public school and private school students academically both in standardized testing, post-secondary education, and employment outcomes.

[Pants-of-dog]

Do you have evidence for this claim?

[Victoribus Spolia]

Do you have evidence for this claim?

For future reference, if you genuinely want me to answer a question, you need to tag me/mention me so that I get the notification.

You should know this.

According to figures from the U.S. Census Bureau, the United States spends $11,392 per student every year. This figure, referred to as per pupil current spending (PPCS), varies dramatically by state. Some states spend over $20,000 per student while others spend less than $7,000.Apr 17, 2018

Taxpayers spend an average of $11,732 per pupil annually in public schools, plus capital expenditures. Taxpayers spend nothing on most homeschool students and homeschool families spend an average of $600 per student annually for their education.

https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/

I actually spend that per year because we reuse text books and make photo copies of work-sheets etc, so I spend closer to $100 per kid.

The home-educated typically score 15 to 30 percentile points above public-school students on standardized academic achievement tests. (The public school average is the 50th percentile; scores range from 1 to 99.) A 2015 study found Black homeschool students to be scoring 23 to 42 percentile points above Black public school students (Ray, 2015).
Homeschool students score above average on achievement tests regardless of their parents’ level of formal education or their family’s household income.
Whether homeschool parents were ever certified teachers is not related to their children’s academic achievement.
Degree of state control and regulation of homeschooling is not related to academic achievement.
Home-educated students typically score above average on the SAT and ACT tests that colleges consider for admissions.

https://www.nheri.org/research-facts-on-homeschooling/

Homeschooling makes sense from an achievement point of view.

Research suggests homeschooled children tend to do better on standardized tests, stick around longer in college, and do better once they're enrolled. A 2009 study showed that the proportion of homeschoolers who graduated from college was about 67%, while among public school students it was 59%.

Students from Catholic and private schools fell even lower in college graduation rates, with 54% and 51% of kids, respectively, completing all four years.

https://www.businessinsider.com/reasons ... al-world-5


Also Good: http://i.bnet.com/blogs/homeschool.pdf

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So given U.S. Statistics;

Homeschooling is academically superior by every metric, upwards of 20% superior, and is 2000% cheaper.



As an example, my oldest son's standardized testing scores came back (last year was the first year he had to do them at).

He scored in the top 1% in reading with an 11th grade reading level (he was in third grade) and he scored in the top 45% in math with a 5th grade reading level (we have subsequently changed math programs to see if we can get this even higher, which is something I am free to do as a homeschool parent).

This isn't accounting for his language skills, he has been learning German and Latin since kindergarten and will continue with such all through his years and I will be adding Hellenistic Greek, and Possibly Japanese later on as well. He begins logic in 6th grade.


Further, I can simultaneously teach him trade skills as we homeschool, he can already use a miter saw and hand jig saw and has been using impact drivers and cordless drills regular (under my supervision of course). I had him replace a leg on my computer desk by himself via my instruction, but without my physical help. He took 2x2s, cut them with the miter saw, pre-dilled holes, screwed them together with the impact, and painted them (age 9).

This is just the start, he will be my primary assistant as a build my home this year from the ground up. I couldn't do this if he was in public school.

[noemon]

Private schools do not yield better for less.

Of course they do not, and nothing in that source from the US in 2003(16 years ago) claims that they do, the entire source makes no statement whatsoever on whether these cheap private schools yield any better results than public schools. It just makes the statement that the cheapest private school in an area can be cheaper per student than another public school.

[SolarCross]

Shouldn't homeschoolers get a rebate on their taxes?

[Victoribus Spolia]

Shouldn't homeschoolers get a rebate on their taxes?

We don't. We get fucked twice. We pay for our own kids, and then we have to pay for other people's kids via school property taxes; which are absurd around here. I end up paying more $ in taxes for the public school then I do to homeschool my own children.

[SolarCross]

We don't. We get fucked twice. We pay for our own kids, and then we have to pay for other people's kids via school property taxes; which are absurd around here. I end up paying more $ in taxes for the public school then I do to homeschool my own children.

Indeed, it seems grossly unfair. Does anyone think that is justifiable?

[Rancid]

I was listening to a pod cast about this. The conclusion was that private schools do provide a better education, but given the cost of the private education, it's actually a bad investment. What dictates success more so than the school the child goes to is basically what is being taught at home. How involved are the parents. Stuff like that.

The conclusion was, if you can afford to pay for private school, that's good, but you should not risk your financial future to send you kid to private school because it's just not really worth it.

Hopefully that makes sense. They did a great job in breaking that down in the podcast.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Indeed, it seems grossly unfair. Does anyone think that is justifiable?

I sure the fuck don't, but if homeschooling got you out of paying school taxes, people would stop sending their kids to public school so they didn't have to pay the outrageous school taxes around here and the whole thing would be a domino effect.

That is why they won't let that happen. I voted in the midterms here in PA because the Republican challenger to Tom Wolf, Scott Wagner, promises to abolish the school property tax in exchange for a 1% increase in our sales from 6% to 7%.

Not that I want any taxes, but since I grow most of my own food and purchase most of my stuff online, I didn't mind paying 1% more on stuff I get at the local walmart than more than the thousands of dollars the family pays for the 4o acre family farm every year.

I was listening to a pod cast about this. The conclusion was that private schools do provide a better education, but given the cost of the private education, it's actually a bad investment. What dictates success more so than the school the child goes to is basically what is being taught at home. How involved are the parents. Stuff like that.The conclusion was, if you can afford to pay for private school, that's good, but you should not risk your financial future to send you kid to private school because it's just not really worth it.Hopefully that makes sense. They did a great job in breaking that down in the podcast.

I agree, which is why they should homeschool, since it beats the shit out of both.

[One Degree]

I was listening to a pod cast about this. The conclusion was that private schools do provide a better education, but given the cost of the private education, it's actually a bad investment. What dictates success more so than the school the child goes to is basically what is being taught at home. How involved are the parents. Stuff like that.

The conclusion was, if you can afford to pay for private school, that's good, but you should not risk your financial future to send you kid to private school because it's just not really worth it.

Hopefully that makes sense. They did a great job in breaking that down in the podcast.

Yes, it is not really about public versus private but the actual students who make up each school. What is taught is based upon the expectations of the students. They tried to offset this with testing, but that is not realistic. You still have to teach at the level of the students in the school.
There are excellent public and private schools because they have excellent students. Same reason for both having terrible schools. This can be offset somewhat with extremely talented teachers, but there aren’t many of them.
Any competent individualized schooling will be superior disregarding schools as social learning centers.

[SolarCross]

social learning centers.

The reality is most schools are anti-social learning centers. As a general rule people don't conduct their social lives anything like the prison-like ant-hive social arrangements of schools. My son calls the school he goes to "the gulag", lol.

[Sivad]

Publicly funded education is good, public schooling not so much. The only thing worse than public schooling is the privatized corporate governance of education(charter schools).

[Rancid]

The reality is most schools are anti-social learning centers. As a general rule people don't conduct their social lives anything like the prison-like ant-hive social arrangements of schools. My son calls the school he goes to "the gulag", lol.

How would you propose that public education be done?

I don't know if I believe the following is good, but I think it might be good. This is along the lines of something @Victoribus Spolia would support.

What if schools were basically down to the community level? For example, say in my neighborhood, one of the stay at home moms/dads decides to open up a community school, where maybe they teach 5-10 kids. This way the parents of those other kids can still go work and what not, but the schooling experience for the child is SUPER focused. This is sort of a hybrid homeschool public school kind of thing.

The only issue would be in finding enough people in each neighborhood willing to open up a school.

Then you maybe have a minimal oversight/standardized testing to make sure things are decent. It would probably take car fewer administrators to do as well. Administrators are a giant suck of money from public education.

[Victoribus Spolia]

What if schools were basically down to the community level? For example, say in my neighborhood, one of the stay at home moms/dads decides to open up a community school, where maybe they teach 5-10 kids. This way the parents of those other kids can still go work and what not, but the schooling experience for the child is SUPER focused. This is sort of a hybrid homeschool public school kind of thing

Homeschooling Co-Ops already function like this and can evolve into private schools overtime. For instance, the homeschooling curriculum "Classical Conversations," sets up little networks between homeschool families where a couple of times a week all of the homeschool kids in the program in a given community will meet up with different parents and sometimes even teachers (either hired or volunteer) teaching "modules" like classes as well as doing other group-based social things; like "gym."

As an example, a module might be "Greek mythology" or "third year latin," and the kids would all be together under a single teacher a couple times a week at this location; usually a community center or church. The rest of the time they would be homeschooled like usual. Parents tend to like these co-ops because it gives them a break and the individual participation is voluntary at co-ops for parents; involving anything from either teaching their own module, down to just making sure all messes are cleaned up.

These co-ops are usually a monthly fee, sometimes can be as low as 20 bucks a month not counting any additional materials.

Often, this is how private Christian schools are started in many areas, they start as co-ops for homeschoolers where everyone pitches in some money, and eventually if they get enough kids/money; they can hire some full-time staff etc.....a few thousand pages of paperwork and regulatory bullshit and voila! you have yourself a community-based private school.

To be honest, if it weren't for the regs and paperwork; community based schools like this could be done very affordably.

[Victoribus Spolia]

@Rancid,

https://www.thoughtco.com/homeschool-co ... es-1833641

A homeschool co-op, short for cooperative, is a group of homeschool families that join to share in the education of their children. Homeschool co-ops offer classes for students and usually require parent participation. Don't expect to drop your kids off at classes or activities. In most cases, parents are actively involved teaching classes, caring for younger children, or helping with cleaning or other tasks.

In other cases, parents may pool their financial resources to hire instructors for the courses offered by the co-op. This option can be more costly but can be an accessible way to get expert help.

Homeschool co-ops can vary in size from a small co-op of only two or three families to a large, organized setting with paid instructors.

These are so popular among homeschoolers anymore that its almost a new norm and its also why when you give a homeschool parent the whole "but what about socialization?" line, they a likely to give a pretty big eye-roll and hearty chuckle.

[Rancid]

Don't expect to drop your kids off at classes or activities. In most cases, parents are actively involved teaching classes, caring for younger children, or helping with cleaning or other tasks.

I'm very sure this is basically the reason these kids end up doing so much better academically. I'm a firm believer that it's all about what happens at home that determines if a child is successful.

I'm proof of that. I went to inner city ghetto schools. As far as I can tell, the big difference between me, and the kids that dropped out or haven't done much since high school is because my parents were actually on me about getting my shit in order and done. Unfortunately, they weren't educated, so they really couldn't help me with my homework for example. Nonetheless, they did what they could, and were on my ass about my studies. Something that is missing from most homes in the ghetto (saw it with my own eyes).