Should healthcare and education be free? - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15056924
I'm really torn on this topic and I can't make up my mind where I stand. I need help. Can someone please help me figure out the answer to this question?

I don't know where to start. I feel like I've looked into many different points from both sides and I see good points on both sides.

I'm just looking for someone to help me understand which position I should take.
#15056933
All forms of healthcare and education should be free from private ownership, costs, and the concepts of "debt."

Someone having to pay for healthcare is immoral. Any human necessity that is under a private cost adds psychological stress and waste to of whom has to pay for it. One cannot learn without worrying and stressing out about the bills.
#15056937
You'll have to excuse some transatlantic cynicism, Agent Steel, but it seems to me that many problems in North America stem from conflating financial capital with human capital. Those in possession of significant amounts of the former are allowed to dictate the terms of the latter. In reality, it's Social Darwinism. If the monied classes can ensure that they and theirs get the quality healthcare and the quality education, then they can ensure they and theirs' survival.

Clearly, if you can't afford healthcare...you're not worth anything.

:hmm:
#15056941
Agent Steel wrote:I'm really torn on this topic and I can't make up my mind where I stand. I need help. Can someone please help me figure out the answer to this question?

I don't know where to start. I feel like I've looked into many different points from both sides and I see good points on both sides.

I'm just looking for someone to help me understand which position I should take.

It's a complex issue because while health care and education are not public goods -- they are both excludable and rivalrous -- they are market failure goods in that they cannot be provided efficiently in the free market. In education there are principal-agent problems, information asymmetries, etc. that make the free market ineffective. In the case of health care, there are also the problems of artificial scarcity caused by patent monopolies, professional licensing restrictions, etc., and distortions caused by extensive government involvement.

I don't think health care and education should be free because people tend not to respect things they get for free, but there are good reasons why they should be provided on a heavily subsidized basis. The details are a matter for debate and economic analysis, but I would favor tax-funded public health insurance with small deductibles, combined with private provision for those who want to pay for a higher (more expensive) level of care. Education should be largely publicly funded, but privately provided.

IMO the effect of private health insurance in the USA has been almost entirely malign, with private firms doing everything they can to increase premiums and reduce care in pursuit of profits. Other countries get better results for far less money through public provision. If you think public health care is expensive, try public illness. Likewise, if you think public education is expensive, try public ignorance. American public schools are of very uneven quality because of the funding model, and get average results well below those in other advanced countries.
#15056950
Health care should be cost free for all. Ìts paid for by taxes, including the wealthest. But America must clean up the absurd pharmaceutical contracts or you'ĺl have more of this

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-care/are-you-kidding-me-check-out-price-tags-combination-drugs-n1049276

Education is a little trickier. Ideally it should be free but we're all facing cleaning the climate. This might not be the time to put a complete end to it, but we could strive to keep the cost low and forgive the interest on graduate loans. Alternatively, the Govt could do on line education for a fraction of privately owned universities.
#15056972
Nothings ever free, even when it is. Once you wrap your head around that concept you can decide whether you want to pay now or later...but either way, you will pay.
#15056973
ness31 wrote:Nothings ever free, even when it is. Once you wrap your head around that concept you can decide whether you want to pay now or later...but either way, you will pay.

Of course, but universal healthcare systems are built on a principle of shared burden.

If you're unlucky enough to have a serious illness or injury, why should you suffer the 'double jeopardy' of financial ruin?
#15056974
Cartertonian wrote:Of course, but universal healthcare systems are built on a principle of shared burden.

If you're unlucky enough to have a serious illness or injury, why should you suffer the 'double jeopardy' of financial ruin?


Why should youth pay for the old? It’s a massive sacrifice not well explained. Whoever came up with the principle of universal healthcare wasn’t the most honest soul.
#15056979
So car accidents by young people cost more than aged care? Don’t you have some sort of catastrophic injury insurance in the country obsessed with insurance?
#15056984
ness31 wrote:Why should youth pay for the old? It’s a massive sacrifice not well explained. Whoever came up with the principle of universal healthcare wasn’t the most honest soul.
Why? Well, let's look at the reality. The young will not be young forever. They will eventually be old and then some other young person will help pay for them. They do, in fact, get what they pay for, only it's not immediate gratification.

It's that simple.

@SSDR Good post. QFT.
#15056985
Godstud wrote:Why? Well, let's look at the reality. The young will not be young forever. They will eventually be old and then some other young person will help pay for them. They do, in fact, get what they pay for, only it's not immediate gratification.

It's that simple.

@SSDR Good post. QFT.


The reality is that we have an aging population that will bleed us dry.

But it’s okay. Karma will deal with them.
#15056987
We also have an aging population that is becoming healthier, so blaming it on old people is a pretty simplistic, and unrealistic way of looking at it. The "aging population" put their money into that system longer than the young, so they are indeed able to benefit from that.

I suppose in 40 years you'll be complaining about how you are bleeding the system dry, or will you be complaining about how entitled young people are? :lol:
#15056990
Agent Steel wrote:I'm really torn on this topic and I can't make up my mind where I stand. I need help. Can someone please help me figure out the answer to this question?

I don't know where to start. I feel like I've looked into many different points from both sides and I see good points on both sides.

I'm just looking for someone to help me understand which position I should take.


Free university education should be available to those that are poor and smart. Giving a free college education to someone that is not college material solves nothing. By putting academic standards as a filter the country will not go bankrupt in providing meaningless degrees such as gender queer studies or criminal justice.

National Medicare shoould be an option, yes. But, it would not be free------it would be paid with taxes. It could work even better than Medicare for the old as there would be young healthy people in the insured pool.
#15057006
Health care and education (including university) are free or almost free in many European countries.
The people benefiting from this are paying through their income tax, which amounts to 50% and more depending on the level of income.
I used to pay 53% of my basic income as income tax when I used to work for my government.
There are rules and limits in free health care.
For instance, persons above the age of 64 are not entitled to kidney transplants (that is just one example I happen to know about because I overheard a conversation).
Thank you for reading and continue your deliberations.
#15057030
Godstud wrote:We also have an aging population that is becoming healthier, so blaming it on old people is a pretty simplistic, and unrealistic way of looking at it. The "aging population" put their money into that system longer than the young, so they are indeed able to benefit from that.

I suppose in 40 years you'll be complaining about how you are bleeding the system dry, or will you be complaining about how entitled young people are? :lol:


People are certainly being kept alive for way too long.

I don’t intend on being a burden to anyone. Life is intolerable as it is now. Wouldn’t want to be alive and decrepit.
#15057046
ness31 wrote:People are certainly being kept alive for way too long.
:roll: According to who? Most old people have paid their way, and deserve everything they get in their old age. Who are you to judge who is worthy or not?

ness31 wrote:I don’t intend on being a burden to anyone. Life is intolerable as it is now. Wouldn’t want to be alive and decrepit.
You are likely already a burden on someone. Does that mean your life has any less value?

That's the choice of the individual, not everyone else.
#15057049
Godstud wrote: According to who? Most old people have paid their way, and deserve everything they get in their old age. Who are you to judge who is worthy or not?


Paid their way? How? I suppose you are referring to monetary taxes and I won’t argue the point with you. That’s the conventional way of seeing things.

You are likely already a burden on someone. Does that mean your life has any less value?

That's the choice of the individual, not everyone else.


Should my life be a burden on anyone I assure you it isn’t my choice. And, I can assure you that ones suffering has far more currency than any joy in this global climate. This world is truly ‘negatively geared’.

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