Should healthcare and education be free? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15069029
Fokker wrote:University fees regulate it automatically.
So, how hard would it be to set quotas that would mimic fees? Not hard, atall.

Fokker wrote:I live in a country where university education is free. I prefer it to stay that way, but at the same time I can see some of advantages university fees offer.
Student debt is not an advantage, and the countries with cheaper to free education have better education systems. Go figure. :D

This is a lot like the arguments against Universal Healthcare(free at source). They tend to be poorly thought out, and rely on anecdotes or misconceptions.
#15069031
Godstud wrote:So, how hard would it be to set quotas that would mimic fees? Not hard, atall.


University fees can be set by universities themselves, whereas with quotas it doesn't make sense. While quotas require central planning, university fees do not. University fees can be adjusted dynamically based on degree market value. It's similar to distinction between centrally planned economy and capitalist economy. There are different solutions to address the same problem, some perhaps less efficient than others.
#15069034
Not only should health care and education be free, because the working people in society have already paid for it by their labors, it's an investment by society in it's own future prosperity and well-being. Someday people will see this and not be afraid, I hope.
#15069036
annatar1914 wrote:
Not only should health care and education be free, because the working people in society have already paid for it by their labors, it's an investment by society in it's own future prosperity and well-being. Someday people will see this and not be afraid, I hope.



We don't often agree, but I am in complete agreement with you on this one.
#15069047
annatar1914 wrote:Not only should health care and education be free, because the working people in society have already paid for it by their labors, it's an investment by society in it's own future prosperity and well-being. Someday people will see this and not be afraid, I hope.
QFT. Absolutely. The best countries in the world to life in, incidentally, tend to have almost free or free education. Hmmm... I wonder why? :?:

Fokker wrote:University fees can be set by universities themselves, whereas with quotas it doesn't make sense.
How does it not make sense? It's a simple case of a university setting a quota instead of raising prices on a particular degree or course. It would be amazingly simple to implement.

Fokker wrote:University fees can be adjusted dynamically based on degree market value.
Quotas could mimic this, very easily.
#15069070
annatar1914 wrote:Not only should health care and education be free, because the working people in society have already paid for it by their labors, it's an investment by society in it's own future prosperity and well-being. Someday people will see this and not be afraid, I hope.


And what are easternmost EU members supposed to do when graduates flee westwards? Spain has the same problem right now. Spaniards are all over Europe. It clearly wasn't a good investment when they decided to leave.

Godstud wrote:QFT. Absolutely. The best countries in the world to life in, incidentally, tend to have almost free or free education. Hmmm... I wonder why?


I would say the best countries to live in would be US/UK, judging by the number of immigrants trying to get in. If I wanted to move permanently to other country, free education would not play any role at all. Free healthcare would play a role if one can't get a decent salary.

Godstud wrote:How does it not make sense? It's a simple case of a university setting a quota instead of raising prices on a particular degree or course. It would be amazingly simple to implement.


Universities get paid by amount of students. It doesn't make sense to let them set quotas themselves.
#15069167
annatar1914 wrote:Not only should health care and education be free, because the working people in society have already paid for it by their labors, it's an investment by society in it's own future prosperity and well-being. Someday people will see this and not be afraid, I hope.


**LIKE**

Education is a great gift. I think it's fair to say the more education one has, the better the choices they make.

Health care is a 'must have'. In addition to the obvious advantage of living as healthily as possible, there are economic advatages. I hear Americans saying their kids won't have as much as their parents and grandparents. Well, if health care costs doesn't wipe out people's homes, this could be reversed. Look at the difference between poor families who cannot afford homes, and families that pass on (the value of) their homes to the next generation, and that generation to the next. In my family, the difference is massive.

Reining in pharmaceutical costs would also help. For instance, insulin has been on the market since 1922. It sold for a dollar a vial. It supported Sick Kids Hospital for 25 years. The patent is long over, but it's being sold at such a mark up people can't afford it and some die. In the richest country in the history of the world, as America likes to say.
#15069172
Fokker wrote:I would say the best countries to live in would be US/UK, judging by the number of immigrants trying to get in.
:roll: That's not a valid measurement. That's an opinion.

Note: Canada gets more immigrants, in comparison to the USA or England, if counted towards population. USA takes a bit over a million for a 320 million population. Canada takes 250,000 for a population of 34 million. UK takes 100,000 for a population of 64 million. By that ridiculous measurement we can assume that Canada is a better place to live, right? :D

The facts say that the countries with free or cheap education have the best education systems. We are dealing with facts, and not vague measurements.

Fokker wrote:Universities get paid by amount of students. It doesn't make sense to let them set quotas themselves.
If the universities are being paid by the state, as in free education, it would make complete sense.
#15069178
@Godstud

By that ridiculous measurement we can assume that Canada is a better place to live, right?


Yes! Yes by every measure. Everyone in the States is clamouring for what we have and didn't grow a mega debt to gain it.

Also for the 1980 to after 911 America was squawking about or immigrants. They've never given much harm to anyone
#15069645
SHOULD HEALTHCARE AND EDUCATION BE FREE?

Yes. All vital industries should be socialized.
Not only should healthcare be free, but the entire supply chain should also be socialized to reduce the cost to a minimum while only maintaining privatization in the research and development along with the service provision.
Preferably having both a public and a private option in the provisioning of healthcare, likewise for R&D.

This is the best way to ensure optimal results for healthcare without burdening the public with a large tax hike.
Likewise, the state could establish state-owned or cooperatively owned for-profit companies to generate revenues to reduce taxes and incentivize entrepreneurs with tax cuts and, possibly, easier financing as it would be able to afford both if the cost of healthcare and infrastructure was covered by state-owned businesses.


Regarding education; Yes, educational services should not be allowed to go private.
A state-run education system, monitored by a democratically elected committee, increases the internal integration of the country as it forces all classes and cultures to integrate from an early age. Furthermore, it acts as a defensive measure to stop the spread of invasive ideological indoctrination by foreign hostile nations and entities.

A country that allows its primary education system to be private without very strict monitoring is a country that can easily be subverted and turned into a client state of foreign powers.

Regarding higher education, an educated public increases the wealth of the nation, and thus it is best to make it as easy as possible to get higher education.
A private option can be allowed, but a public high standard one is a must.
#15070049
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Last edited by Varannal on 26 Feb 2020 13:05, edited 1 time in total.
#15070052
I think post #15056941 is closest to my view.

Basic and necessary healthcare and education should be free, but a fee should be taken if anybody wants more than that (e.g. state-of-the-art medicine, special skills not necessary to making a living)

As for the patent thing, I'd say in an ideal case the state should ultimately be the owner of the said patent instead of the inventor. However, the inventor should, of course, be adequately paid.

In practice, the problem is, at what extent healthcare and education becomes more than "basic / necessary". IMHO advocating universally free healthcare and education (say, of universities) just because we cannot answer this is a bit lazy.
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