The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 171 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15207090
wat0n wrote:Triage

Pants-of-dog wrote:No triage


Before looking at the ethics of medical triage, look at these statistics:

le Devoir wrote:Hospital beds per 1000, Canada

1979: 7

2019: 2.5


So as Canada's population ages, the government has been CUTTING the number of doctors per capita to save money for things like baseball parks, highways, and world travel.

Stats wrote:Doctors per 10,000 pop

1 Qatar 77.4
2 Monaco 71.7
3 Cuba 67.2
4 Greece 54
5 San Marino 51
6 Spain 49.5
7 Austria 48.3
8 Russia 43
9 Norway 42.8
10 Georgia 42.7
11 Lithuania 41.2
12 Portugal 41
13 Switzerland 40.5
14 Andorra 40
15 Belarus 39.3
16 Sweden 39.3
17 Netherlands 39
18 Germany 38.9
19 Bulgaria 38.7
20 Argentina 38.6
**Canada not in top 20**


Canada has some of the best photographers, hairdressers, tour guides, hedge fund mangers, and PR people. But we don't bother with doctors because... they're so expensive and high end. Meanwhile, Russia and Cuba.... have more than double the number of doctors as Canada (or the USA) per capita.

Is having more doctors and hospital beds important, or do we just need more and more drugs?
#15207093
@QatzelOk what does the demand curve for doctors and hospital beds look like in Canada?

I don't think you can pass judgement until you look at both sides of supply/demand.

It wouldn't make sense under any economic system to have a massive number of beds and doctors that aren't being used. There is a cost to all of that. You could starve other important areas like education.
#15207097
Pants-of-dog wrote:Doctors do not have superpowers.

You cannot see things like access to care or employment status when looking at a patient.


Then how was the paper I cited ever done?

All the individual-level information came from the hospital ("Clinical data were extracted from the Henry Ford electronic medical record through patient chart review. Our data extraction included the following: patient demographics (age, sex, race, ethnicity, English language proficiency, insurance status, and living situation), employment status for patients ≤ 65 years, smoking status, substance use, body mass index (BMI), comorbidities, and clinical outcomes. Essential industries included healthcare, agriculture, food service, first responders, transportation, infrastructure, and critical manufacturing.14 Medical comorbidities and the Charlson Comorbidity Index (CCI) were obtained by examining the medical history, initial history, and outside care records.").

@QatzelOk too bad many of those Cuban doctors earn more by working as taxi drivers.
#15207098
wat0n wrote:Then how was the paper I cited ever done?

All the individual-level information came from the hospital ("Clinical data were extracted from the Henry Ford electronic medical record through patient chart review. Our data extraction included the following: patient demographics (age, sex, race, ethnicity, English language proficiency, insurance status, and living situation), employment status for patients ≤ 65 years, smoking status, substance use, body mass index (BMI), comorbidities, and clinical outcomes. Essential industries included healthcare, agriculture, food service, first responders, transportation, infrastructure, and critical manufacturing.14 Medical comorbidities and the Charlson Comorbidity Index (CCI) were obtained by examining the medical history, initial history, and outside care records.").

@QatzelOk too bad many of those Cuban doctors earn more by working as taxi drivers.


Please show that NY medical records show things like how often a patient has to use public transport.
#15207126
If they don't, it's up to them to explain how come those from the Henry Ford health system in Michigan do. After all that information is useful regardless of COVID, and even more so now that occupation can be a risk factor.

Indeed, the results of that paper justify collecting that data.
#15207149
@QatzelOk Better treatments and out-patient care(which most people prefer) have led to there being less beds needed. Rancid's point was very valid, but I doubt you'll address it.
#15207164
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-14/ ... /100755854

Bam! Vaccine mandates are dead in the USA. Significant violation of personal individual freedoms protected by the constitution. Only legal for individuals in the healthcare industry and working in close proximity with known cases. They should have thrown the check-in mandates too.

Democrats wanted to destroy the Supreme Court because they knew they were going to turn Biden into a lame duck president. The day has arrived, and a decision on Roe VS Wade is coming soon too!
#15207165
Other countries with far more freedoms than dumbass USA, have had far less deaths because of Covid-19. The vaccinations, lockdowns and quarantines were successful. USA suffered unnecessarily.

colliric wrote:Democrats wanted to destroy the Supreme Court because they knew they were going to turn Biden into a lame duck president. The day has arrived, and a decision on Roe VS Wade is coming soon too!
You're a liar, a fool, and a misogynist.

Democrats do not want to destroy the Supreme Court..

Biden is not a "lame duck". He's better than Trump by a country mile.

Roe vs Wade is only what misogynistic assholes want to remove
#15207167
Godstud wrote:Other countries with far more freedoms than dumbass USA, have had far less deaths because of Covid-19. The vaccinations, lockdowns and quarantines were successful. USA suffered unnecessarily.

You're a liar, a fool, and a misogynist.


You literally supported expanding the court just so the chances of a deadlocked court increased, handing even more power to the President(because obviously he'd be the one having to "broker peace"). Because you knew situations like this were going to happen during Biden's Presidency.

He's now a lame duck, meaning he can't get anything through because the Supreme Court will probably block it if it goes before them. Will be even worse if the Republicans win the Midterms.
#15207210
colliric wrote:You literally supported expanding the court just so the chances of a deadlocked court increased, handing even more power to the President(because obviously he'd be the one having to "broker peace").
Quote me where I said this.
#15207342
The bogus statistics about hospital beds reflects a couple of things. First of all, as Godstud said, we and Canada and the UK, among others, use outpatient surgeries for procedures done in hospital in most other countries. We also do not do "observation" anymore. We do not go to hospital for a rest. We also strive to reduce stays.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. Hospital acquired infection is a very serious problem virtually everywhere.

Secondly, comparing the number of doctors in other countries with the US and Canada does not accurately count primary care providers, which in our countries would also include Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants.

So back to the drawing board on that argument.

The ruling by the SCOTUS that disease prevention in large populations is subservient to some absurd notion of personal liberty shows just how partisan the selections of justices has become and the results. In effect the SCOTUS could well have begun the rulings with "the science be damned....."

Then they rule that mandates are OK for people who might be exposed on the job in a hospital but not for people who might be exposed on the job in a e meat packing plant. It is the height of stupidity and simply bad law. Because the Republicans have a majority in the Senate (counting Manchin and Sinema) there will be no legislative solution. Indeed the SCOTUS is little more and a 9 person version of Iran's Supreme Leader, filtering everything through a lens religion in the case if Iran and political orthodoxy in the US.
#15207418
Pants-of-dog wrote:@Drlee

Yes. It is about shortages. And using race as a proxy for things like access to care and occupational risks helps use these limited resources more effectively.

And using race as a proxy is precisely what the the Constitution forbids: “ … nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.” Being non-White is not a greater health factor than having congestive heart failure or chronic liver disease.
#15207421
Drlee wrote:The ruling by the SCOTUS that disease prevention in large populations is subservient to some absurd notion of personal liberty …

Except that isn’t what SCOTUS ruled. Rather, the majority ruled that an emergency doesn’t grant a bureaucracy authority it didn’t previously have—that Congress has had plenty of time to grant that authority and has chosen not to do so, and what Congress chooses not to grant the bureaucracy cannot unilaterally assume. Quoting from the opinion: “OSHA has never before imposed such a mandate. Nor has Congress. Indeed, although Congress has enacted significant legislation addressing the COVID–19 pandemic, it has declined to enact any measure similar to what OSHA has promulgated here.”

It didn’t help that the White House Chief of Staff admitted—or rather boasted—in a tweet that OSHA’s mandate was a “workaround”:

#15207423
Rancid wrote:@QatzelOk what does the demand curve for doctors and hospital beds look like in Canada?

I don't think you can pass judgement until you look at both sides of supply/demand.

It wouldn't make sense under any economic system to have a massive number of beds and doctors that aren't being used. There is a cost to all of that. You could starve other important areas like education.

This is your brain on neoliberalism?

After spending all that money on stock buybacks, military adventures, and other rich-person games, there is nothing left over for health or education - two things that you suggest should be at war with one another for the crumbs left over after all the yachts have been purchased.

In a few years, perhaps the 99% won't have health care or education anymore - just vaccines and restrictions. Or maybe they will have been successfully eliminated by Richard Branson and the other billionaire space cowboys.

Fidel Castro was correct to boot the mafia out of his country.

Godstud wrote:@QatzelOk Better treatments and out-patient care(which most people prefer) have led to there being less beds needed. Rancid's point was very valid, but I doubt you'll address it.

Good, then we will never need these beds for pandemics, or for our older populations.

...the ScienceTM of cutting social services. Dumb Science?
#15207425
QatzelOk wrote:This is your brain on neoliberalism?

After spending all that money on stock buybacks, military adventures, and other rich-person games, there is nothing left over for health or education - two things that you suggest should be at war with one another for the crumbs left over after all the yachts have been purchased.

In a few years, perhaps the 99% won't have health care or education anymore - just vaccines and restrictions. Or maybe they will have been successfully eliminated by Richard Branson and the other billionaire space cowboys.

Fidel Castro was correct to boot the mafia out of his country.


Which military adventures is Canada engaging in?

Again, regardless of the economic system, you have to manage resources. You are completely deflecting and side stepping the question.

Even in Cuba, they have to select how much they put in to health care, how much into education, and how much into military and infrastructure. So yea, you cannot starve one area in favor of another. That's just stupid.

By the way, I like how you support nepotism.
#15207433
Rancid wrote:regardless of the economic system, you have to manage resources.

We are spending trillions on wars (Canada is in NATO) and cars and stadiums and stock buybacks, and QE, and...

And now, we have one third the hospital beds we did 30 years ago, despite an aging population.

Education is in the same situation - precarious. I know, I have been teaching for ten years. Another disaster of cuts justified with "technology and social changes." Lies that have lead to an inferior eduction for each generation.

That so many people can watch their leaders spend trillions on Respirators, Vaccines, Rapid Tests, emergency measures.... while all the while investing nothing in improving our health care systems... shows you how "valuable" the average person is to the accountants playing numbers games in front of their screens.

You are being robbed blind by the rich because... you are scared and dumb.

Castro was correct. We were wrong. We are paying dearly for letting the mafias rule. For our negligence and lack of vision.
#15207437
@QatzelOk You're talking dumbass shit again. Before talking about "wars" that NATO is in, it might be good to educate yourself at least the tiniest bit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations

Canada LEFT Afghanistan in 2014, incidentally, despite its NATO affiliation.

NATO isn't IN any wars. You're exposing your ignorance for all to see.


As for "dumb science"... the science is only dumb if you don't understand it, which you evidently do not. @Drlee explained it a second time and you still can't get it thru your thick and heavily biased skull.
#15207440
QatzelOk wrote:We are spending trillions on wars (Canada is in NATO) and cars and stadiums and stock buybacks, and QE, and...

And now, we have one third the hospital beds we did 30 years ago, despite an aging population.

Education is in the same situation - precarious. I know, I have been teaching for ten years. Another disaster of cuts justified with "technology and social changes." Lies that have lead to an inferior eduction for each generation.

That so many people can watch their leaders spend trillions on Respirators, Vaccines, Rapid Tests, emergency measures.... while all the while investing nothing in improving our health care systems... shows you how "valuable" the average person is to the accountants playing numbers games in front of their screens.

You are being robbed blind by the rich because... you are scared and dumb.

Castro was correct. We were wrong. We are paying dearly for letting the mafias rule. For our negligence and lack of vision.


Sure sure sure, but still.

What is the demand for hospital beds in Canada though? I feel like you are making assumptions without actually understanding the demand side of the problem.

You may very well be right, but as of now, you are just speculating.

Also, Castro = nepotist. It's a surprise you support nepotism.
#15207441
Doug64 wrote:And using race as a proxy is precisely what the the Constitution forbids: “ … nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”


Are you arguing that the inequities are unconstitutional, or the policies addressing unequal protection from Covid are unconstitutional?

Being non-White is not a greater health factor than having congestive heart failure or chronic liver disease.


Strawman.
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