The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 58 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15130020
Godstud wrote::lol: The only person who compromised the WHO was Trump, @Patrickov


How did China "compromise the WHO"?


Read this.

Trump does mess up his own place -- BIG, but not WHO.

As a matter of fact (not intentions), if China did not cause the epidemic to go out of control there is no fault for Trump to commit.

Ultimately, both China and Trump have a lot to answer (and also all those ignorant people who do not take the necessary precautions regardless of their political stance), but hard Trumpers and hard anti-Trumpers both emphasize only one side and wrongly accuse the other for the entire responsibility.

You and Member SpecialOlympian are apparently the hard anti-Trump side so I have no choice but to remind you of the other. When it comes to the likes of Member Finfinder / Doug64 or Rich, I have no problem calling them out either -- it's just that they are sometimes too ridiculous that I do not have to personally take on them.


Godstud wrote:If you are going to punish China? Who are you going to punish? Please be specific.


1. Chinese Communist Party and its regime
2. The regime's supporters
3. Chinese nationalists (including the current leadership of Nationalist Party of China in Taiwan), whose nationalism enabled CCP to take and abuse power.
4. Whoever in support of Chinese expansion of influence and imposing the Chinese way of administration over whatever better than it (i.e. Western system), including Communists and China-apologists around the world (it happens that many of them are also anti-America / anti-West / pro-Muslim / pro-Russia etc., but these groups are not identical).

Admittedly this is to involve some 2 billion people or even more, but that's the scope of the problem IMHO.
#15130023
Diseases don't listen to government policy, and by the time they discovered much about Covid-19, it was too late. Having lack of information wasn't the problem, as when China did tell everyone, the ones who reacted quickly didn't suffer from the problems. There are many examples of this, but I sure you will dismiss them, because they demolish your anti-China narrative.

1. Chinese Communist Party and its regime
2. The regime's supporters
3. Chinese nationalists (including the current leadership of Nationalist Party of China in Taiwan), who enable the CCP to enroach human rights in many places.
4. Whoever in support of Chinese expansion of influence and imposing the Chinese way of administration over whatever better than it (i.e. Western system), including Communists and China-apologists around the world.
So you want to punish millions of people? :eh: This is a fucking joke.... :roll: This vague, to say the least.

HOW are you going to punish the regime? Cmon, stop talking dodgy bullshit and explain how you are going to go about it. No one can punish the USA for their crimes against humanity. What makes you think someone can do that to China?

What will the punishment be??? Do you want flogging? Forced exorcism? Gulag? Firing squad?


Being anti-Trump is what you are if you are a fucking human being with some sense of ethics, compassion, and morality. He's the worst possible leader for the USA, at the worst possible time. USA's woes are mostly on him, even if pro-Trump people want to deny it.

Trump is, however, irrelevant to this current discussion.
#15130087
Godstud wrote:How did China "compromise the WHO"?

You mean other than the CCP’s suppression of information on the outbreak, and the way the WHO softened its early statements in order to maintain a working relationship with the CCP? And then there’s the WHO’s ludicrous praise of the CCP for its “openness” toward the prospect of research into the origins of the Wuhan virus.
#15130093
Godstud wrote:There are many examples of this, but I sure you will dismiss them, because they demolish your anti-China narrative.


Tell this to my family and contemporaries -- they all condemn China for concealing the seriousness of the epidemic when it first appeared in late 2019. I actually have the softest stance of them all.

In some sense, you are a closet China apologist, just like how Member late and Member Drlee probably see me as a "closet" Trumpet (the "closet" part is false. I never conceal my tendency but I do make my point clear). Of course, I recognize that you do come to your senses when someone like skinster goes too far.


Godstud wrote:HOW are you going to punish the regime? Cmon, stop talking dodgy bullshit and explain how you are going to go about it. No one can punish the USA for their crimes against humanity. What makes you think someone can do that to China?

What will the punishment be??? Do you want flogging? Forced exorcism? Gulag? Firing squad?


Trump and Pompeo are doing the right thing by economically denying China and provoking their true colours.

Even if Biden win, the framework is laid.

Ultimately, either China knows what's right for the world and rescind their policies against Hong Kong and Taiwan, or walk the destructive path as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan had walked.
#15130098
@Patrickov Calling me pro-China, because I don't automatically despise them like you? You can respectfully fuck off.

Demonizing a country, however, because of yours, and others' "perceptions", just stupid.

It all depends on who you ASK.

China didn't cover up pandemic-related information, let the facts speak: Chinese expert
China didn't cover up the COVID-19 pandemic and facts have proved it, said Zhong Nanshan, a respiratory professor at Guangzhou Medical University.

Zhong made the remarks at a symposium chaired by Chinese President Xi Jinping on developing a strong public health system to safeguard people's health on June 2.

The professor quoted the results released by Wuhan, central China's Hubei province, of its citywide nucleic acid test on the same day. A total of 300 asymptomatic patients were found after 9,899,828 residents in the city were tested from May 14 to June 1, with no confirmed COVID-19 cases.

The results prove that China has been honest with its pandemic report, said Zhong, adding that the country has shared pandemic-related information in a timely, open and transparent manner.

After the pandemic broke out in Wuhan, the 84-year-old professor, as head of the high-level team of experts on epidemic prevention and control, set off to Wuhan and concluded with other professionals that the virus can be transmitted from one human being to another.

Under the suggestions of the experts, the Chinese government decided to lock down Wuhan and conduct large-scale prevention and control in the rest of China, which has later been proved effective, according to Zhong.

It is because of the early research, judgment and decisive action that China has reached temporary results in epidemic prevention and control, with the infection and mortality rate ranking the lowest in the world.

Zhong also noted that China has not only actively treated the disease, but has summarized the experience and therapies in a bid to help other countries and promote the development of the discipline, which Zhong believes is a great progress compared with how the country handled SARS 17 years ago.

According to the National Natural Science Foundation of China, by May 10, 650 articles about epidemic prevention out of all the 2,150 published on authoritative journals came from China, Zhong pointed out.

http://en.people.cn/n3/2020/0605/c98649-9697803.html

Patrickov wrote:Ultimately, either China knows what's right for the world and rescind their policies against Hong Kong and Taiwan, or walk the destructive path as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan had walked.
:roll: We are not discussing the USA and China, which are both terrible countries in certain respects. Stick to the topic. Leave your "I hate China" bullshit somewhere else.

Maybe make a Thread about how you hate China. Then you can whine there.
#15130104
Godstud wrote:Calling me pro-China, because I don't automatically despise them like you? You can respectfully fuck off.


If you are pro-China, you are merely as pro-China as I am pro-Trump.

If you think I am blindly pro-Trump then you are probably more pro-China than you believe, but as you can see, I often tell the likes of Member Finfinder to fuck off, and they don't like me either.


Godstud wrote:Demonizing a country, however, because of yours, and others' "perceptions", just stupid.


They do read a lot of sources and not all of them have essentially the same mind.

The facts we see here is simply different from yours. It's just that too many of them are reported (in English) by BBC or CNN, and I have a rule to myself that I won't share source that only speaks our side's narrative (opponents will simply dismiss that as propaganda, as you often see in Member skinster). Quoting from source on the opposite side (which I did a few posts ago) is much stronger.
#15130108
Doug64 wrote:Which is all fine, except that the CDC has acknowledged that the Wuhan virus is aerosolized, which means the particles it travels on are small enough that cloth masks' pores are too large to be effective and may, in fact, be detrimental. One of the links in Sivad's post that you didn't get to was a 2015 study on the effectiveness of cloth masks in protecting health care workers, and they came to this conclusion:

    The trend for all outcomes showed the lowest rates of infection in the medical mask group and the highest rates in the cloth mask arm. The study design does not allow us to determine whether medical masks had efficacy or whether cloth masks were detrimental to HCWs by causing an increase in infection risk. Either possibility, or a combination of both effects, could explain our results. It is also unknown whether the rates of infection observed in the cloth mask arm are the same or higher than in HCWs who do not wear a mask, as almost all participants in the control arm used a mask. The physical properties of a cloth mask, reuse, the frequency and effectiveness of cleaning, and increased moisture retention, may potentially increase the infection risk for HCWs. The virus may survive on the surface of the facemasks,29 and modelling studies have quantified the contamination levels of masks.30 Self-contamination through repeated use and improper doffing is possible. For example, a contaminated cloth mask may transfer pathogen from the mask to the bare hands of the wearer. We also showed that filtration was extremely poor (almost 0%) for the cloth masks. Observations during SARS suggested double-masking and other practices increased the risk of infection because of moisture, liquid diffusion and pathogen retention.31 These effects may be associated with cloth masks.

They do note that one aspect of the study that could have an effect on the lack of efficacy of cloth masks was the nature of the disease those HCWs participating in the study were dealing with:

    Unlike the previous RCTs, circulating influenza and RSV were almost completely absent during this study, with rhinoviruses comprising 85% of isolated pathogens, which means the measured efficacy is against a different range of circulating respiratory pathogens. Influenza and RSV predominantly transmit through droplet and contact routes, while Rhinovirus transmits through multiple routes, including airborne and droplet routes.32 ,33 The data also show that the clinical case definition of ILI is non-specific, and captures a range of pathogens other than influenza. The study suggests medical masks may be protective, but the magnitude of difference raises the possibility that cloth masks cause an increase in infection risk in HCWs. Further, the filtration of the medical mask used in this trial was poor, making extremely high efficacy of medical masks unlikely, particularly given the predominant pathogen was rhinovirus, which spreads by the airborne route. Given the obligations to HCW occupational health and safety, it is important to consider the potential risk of using cloth masks.

That is important because of the acknowledged aerosolized nature of Wuhan virus spread.


Again, all this says is that cloth masks as not as effective as medical masks, which we already know.

Unless you have a custom made homemade mask with a proper fit and assembly, this is obvious.

Meanwhile, there are studies that show that masks are effective:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0237691


    Abstract

    Efficient strategies to contain the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic are peremptory to relieve the negatively impacted public health and global economy, with the full scope yet to unfold. In the absence of highly effective drugs, vaccines, and abundant medical resources, many measures are used to manage the infection rate and avoid exhausting limited hospital resources. Wearing masks is among the non-pharmaceutical intervention (NPI) measures that could be effectively implemented at a minimum cost and without dramatically disrupting social practices. The mask-wearing guidelines vary significantly across countries. Regardless of the debates in the medical community and the global mask production shortage, more countries and regions are moving forward with recommendations or mandates to wear masks in public. Our study combines mathematical modeling and existing scientific evidence to evaluate the potential impact of the utilization of normal medical masks in public to combat the COVID-19 pandemic. We consider three key factors that contribute to the effectiveness of wearing a quality mask in reducing the transmission risk, including the mask aerosol reduction rate, mask population coverage, and mask availability. We first simulate the impact of these three factors on the virus reproduction number and infection attack rate in a general population. Using the intervened viral transmission route by wearing a mask, we further model the impact of mask-wearing on the epidemic curve with increasing mask awareness and availability. Our study indicates that wearing a face mask can be effectively combined with social distancing to flatten the epidemic curve. Wearing a mask presents a rational way to implement as an NPI to combat COVID-19. We recognize our study provides a projection based only on currently available data and estimates potential probabilities. As such, our model warrants further validation studies.

and:
https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/ ... 2020.00818

    ABSTRACT

    State policies mandating public or community use of face masks or covers in mitigating the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) are hotly contested. This study provides evidence from a natural experiment on the effects of state government mandates for face mask use in public issued by fifteen states plus Washington, D.C., between April 8 and May 15, 2020. The research design is an event study examining changes in the daily county-level COVID-19 growth rates between March 31 and May 22, 2020. Mandating face mask use in public is associated with a decline in the daily COVID-19 growth rate by 0.9, 1.1, 1.4, 1.7, and 2.0 percentage points in 1–5, 6–10, 11–15, 16–20, and 21 or more days after state face mask orders were signed, respectively. Estimates suggest that as a result of the implementation of these mandates, more than 200,000 COVID-19 cases were averted by May 22, 2020. The findings suggest that requiring face mask use in public could help in mitigating the spread of COVID-19

So, the “evidence” from @Sivad‘s conspiracy theory website does not show that masks are ineffective.

And when we look at studies other than the ones cited by the anonymous conspiracy theory website author, we see studies that provide evidence that masks help.

I've always been arguing that the mask mandates aren't supported by science.


Please confirm what your argument is. Thank you.
#15130111
Patrickov wrote:If you are pro-China, you are merely as pro-China as I am pro-Trump.
I don't give a fuck what your moronic politics are. I have never accused you of being pro-Trump, either. :moron:

People who are pro-Trump are because they are idiots. If that's your goal, have at it.
#15130171
We must punish China to distract from the president's failures. This is very important. The Chinese people wanted to get sick, to hurt Trump. Please think about China instead of the president and his handling of the virus.
#15130182
Pants-of-dog wrote:Again, all this says is that cloth masks as not as effective as medical masks, which we already know.

Yes, I would say that "We also showed that filtration was extremely poor (almost 0%) for the cloth masks." is considerably less effective than medical masks.
#15130184
Here's the latest weekly update:

Image

For Red State/Blue State:

US ave. deaths per million (increase, change in rate)
  • Red States 640.5 (21.1, -0.2)
  • Purple States 484.2 (17.8, -1.1)
  • Blue States 798.4 (12.1, +2.7)

If they were included on my weekly chart above, Blue States would rank 11th out of 90 (+0), Red States 24th (+0), and Purple States 35th (+0).
#15130199
QatzelOk wrote:This link takes me nowhere.

I suspect a lot of COVID-science is based on these kinds of links.
It does go to a site, and I posted the entire article. What you are experiencing is operator error... on your part. Try clicking on the actual link.

http://en.people.cn/n3/2020/0605/c98649-9697803.html


It works just fine.
#15130201
Doug64 wrote:Here's the latest weekly update:

Image

For Red State/Blue State:

US ave. deaths per million (increase, change in rate)
  • Red States 640.5 (21.1, -0.2)
  • Purple States 484.2 (17.8, -1.1)
  • Blue States 798.4 (12.1, +2.7)

If they were included on my weekly chart above, Blue States would rank 11th out of 90 (+0), Red States 24th (+0), and Purple States 35th (+0).


Blue state
Red state

Blue state
Red state

Blue state
Red state
Blue state
Red state
Blue state
Red state

Grumble grumble.
#15130225
Doug64 wrote:Yes, I would say that "We also showed that filtration was extremely poor (almost 0%) for the cloth masks." is considerably less effective than medical masks.


Yes, but they were checking for filtration of sodium chloride molecules, not Trump virus molecules, and were testing to see if they protected the wearers from infection.

And they only counted those people who worked with infectious patients for eight hours straight and used the one mask.

So this tells us nothing about protecting people from the wearer who wears it for the short time they are in a public area. Unless they happen to be infected with table salt.

Now, what about the studies I showed that provided evidence that masks help? Care to comment?
#15130230
SpecialOlympian wrote:We must punish China to distract from the president's failures. This is very important. The Chinese people wanted to get sick, to hurt Trump. Please think about China instead of the president and his handling of the virus.


USA! USA! USA!
#15130232
If you wear a mask you are a fairy and a liberal.
If you don't wear a mask you are a he-man and a conservative.

AND

It has been proven that more people die in America by getting their big toe caught in their underpants than from covid.
#15130271
:lol: Germanys daily case rate has just gone through ten thousand. This is particularly delightful as not only have had to endure the China virus, our economy trashed and our freedoms stolen, we've also had to endure German Liberal's patronising, sanctimonious lecturing on how wonderful they were at controlling the Xi virus.

In another humiliating blow to the Lock Down Liberals Colombia has now overtaken Sweden in its death rate. This is exactly what we said would happen, that Sweden' strategy might lead to more deaths in the short term but it would be vindicated in the long term. The Liberals like to claim that they are the adults, when in fact they the ones that are childishly demanding the impossible. The pathetic nature of the Left's fantasy world is that some of them refer to it as the Trump virus. As if the Trump organisation was capable of creating a new virus weaponising launching a biological warfare attack on China's soil. Trump does not have a fraction of the independent power that Xi and the Chinese Politburo have.

The Liberals now want to make it a banned conspiracy theory that the Chinese Communist would murder its own people in order to remain in power. The Liberals will probably be trying to ban remembrance of Tienanmen Square next. The Chinese government government was condemned for sending the tanks into Tienanmen Square. Using a virus outbreak to control their population is much smarter. They had the means the motive and the opportunity. Rather than condemned they are being praised by Liberals across the world for their handling of the epidemic that they created. It has the added bonus that it will probably get rid of Trump and replace him with China Joe.
#15130276
@Rich You laughing at people getting sick only shows what a detestable person you truly are. keep it up. You are a great example of a right-winger. :knife:
#15130287
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, but they were checking for filtration of sodium chloride molecules, not Trump virus molecules, and were testing to see if they protected the wearers from infection.

And they only counted those people who worked with infectious patients for eight hours straight and used the one mask.

So this tells us nothing about protecting people from the wearer who wears it for the short time they are in a public area. Unless they happen to be infected with table salt.

Incredible. We’re done.
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