The Wuhan virus—how are we doing? - Page 35 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
Forum rules: No one line posts please.
#15118718
annatar1914 wrote:@Doug64 , you replied re; China that;



Alright, they are obviously partisan in some respects about him. However;


Were they? I haven't seen such documentation. What I have seen is the same level of poor journalism and partisanship regarding China with the MSM. @Doug64 , you can't not support ''AntiFa'' in the United States, and yet support it in Hong Kong or elsewhere, for example.

Martin Luther King’s followers didn’t show up for their marches armed with clubs and fireworks with which to assault the police, and from the reports I’ve seen neither have the protesters in China. The fact that you would rather equate them with AntiFA rather than MLK pretty much tells me that there isn’t much point in continuing this line of argument.

Wrong, that is simply untrue, post-Saddam occupation propaganda.

No, I watched Saddam’s continual interference with the UN inspections play out in realtime on my TV. He clearly either thought he had something to hide, or wanted us to think so.

Well, I guess I was right about you being a Pro-Confederate. President Trump by the way is not, clearly a Union/Lincoln man, but he needs your votes so...

How does “Any politician that violates the Constitution should be condemned for doing so, whatever the motivation—that includes Lincoln, as well as all the politicians that voted in favor of their states’ secession from the Union.” make me pro-Confederate? Lincoln clearly took actions that violated the Constitution, especially early in the war when he exercised powers reserved to Congress, but that didn’t validate the South’s unconstitutional secession from the Union.
#15118725
Martin Luther King’s followers didn’t show up for their marches armed with clubs and fireworks with which to assault the police, and from the reports I’ve seen neither have the protesters in China. The fact that you would rather equate them with AntiFA rather than MLK pretty much tells me that there isn’t much point in continuing this line of argument.


No. And they were not met by rogue militias armed with assault rifles either. You know. Right wing thugs intent on intimidating peaceful protesters. Thugs who are too cowardly to serve in the military but get a boner carrying a very pretty assault rife to protect the police from women and children.
#15118744
Rugoz wrote::eh:

Hate must be a very important emotion in your life.


Not at all, i'm in a good place. But I think you need to consider that as a possibility since every post on Russia or Russians you make is full of senseless bile.
#15118745
Martin Luther King’s followers didn’t show up for their marches armed with clubs and fireworks with which to assault the police, and from the reports I’ve seen neither have the protesters in China. The fact that you would rather equate them with AntiFA rather than MLK pretty much tells me that there isn’t much point in continuing this line of argument.


The protestors in Hong Kong set a man on fire for God's sake, and were every bit as violent as the Antifa assholes in the USA.

No, I watched Saddam’s continual interference with the UN inspections play out in realtime on my TV. He clearly either thought he had something to hide, or wanted us to think so.


I watched too. Man this is like reliving the old days when I protested the invasion; lies and deceit to cover naked aggression and myself trying to fight mass psychosis and demonization in the run-up to the war; back then it was ''Conservatives'' who lost their minds, now it's Liberals with ''Russiagate'', but the ''Conservatives'' are still insane in their own way too...

How does “Any politician that violates the Constitution should be condemned for doing so, whatever the motivation—that includes Lincoln, as well as all the politicians that voted in favor of their states’ secession from the Union.” make me pro-Confederate? Lincoln clearly took actions that violated the Constitution, especially early in the war when he exercised powers reserved to Congress, but that didn’t validate the South’s unconstitutional secession from the Union.


President Lincoln had clear authority from Article Four of the Constitution, to ensure to the states a republican form of government, which a President can't do if Rebel traitors and seditionists flout the laws and secede, refusing to accept the results of a Presidential election...

Lincoln didn't violate the Constitution, he saved it and the Republic from ruin, whereas the traitors had no legality to stand upon whatsoever. Had Lincoln followed your type of advice, the South would have been let go, illegal act or not. And there were those who counseled such an inaction.

Think about what that means in a more modern context. You're more ''Liberal'' than you realize, right?
#15118805
And once again, Senate Democrats—every single one of them—assert that nothing at all is better than not enough:

Senate Democrats sink GOP coronavirus relief bill

    Senate Democrats blocked the GOP’s “skinny” coronavirus relief bill Thursday.

    The failed 52-47 vote highlighted the partisan gridlock that has all attempts at a derailed a fifth comprehensive economic relief package.

    The GOP proposal is estimated to cost around $500 billion — a steep drop from the Democrats’ $3 trillion offer.

    While there were questions of whether or not Republicans would be dealing with defections like they did in July with their $1 trillion proposal, the conference largely put up a united front on the skinny bill.

    The sole Republican defector was, as expected, Sen. Rand Paul of Kentucky.

    Sen. Josh Hawley, who was on the fence about whether he’d support the bill, said ultimately it came down to getting something on the floor.

    “I do think we ought to be focused more on working families and getting people back to work. I wish it had that focus,” the Missouri Republican said. “But it’s become increasingly clear to me that the alternative is nothing.”

    The bill would have provided more than $250 billion for another round of small business loans, $105 billion for schools, and $16 billion for testing and contact tracing resources.

    It also included liability protection against COVID-related injuries and converts a $10 billion loan for the Postal Service into a grant.

    The bill wasn’t expected to pass, with Democratic leaders slamming the Republican offer as ‘emaciated’ for leaving too many relief programs on the cutting room floor, in particular funding for state and local governments.

    They also objected to the liability protections and school choice provisions.

    Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer, New York Democrat, called Thursday’s vote “pointless.”

    “The Republican leader claims the bill is an attempt at a bipartisan solution but the bill was drafted solely by Republicans, no input by Democrats and rushed to the floor,” he said. “This bill is not going to happen because it is so emaciated, so filled with poison pills, so partisanly designed. It was designed to fail.”

    Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell accused Democrats of obstructing any deal to score political points in the upcoming November elections and said they were prioritizing party politics over public health.

    “Today every Senator will either say they want to send families the relief we can agree to, or they want to send families nothing,” he said before the vote.

    Notably, Sen. Doug Jones, who is facing a tough reelection fight in Alabama, stuck with his party to vote against the bill.

    He blamed Mr. McConnell for not approaching this with a compromise in mind.

    “Complete lack of leadership on the majority leader here. What he’s done is a disservice to the American people,” Mr. Jones told reporters.

    “I don’t take votes with politics in mind,” he added, when asked how his constituents will feel about his vote to block the bill. “It doesn’t contain enough and what it does contain, there’s some good things about it, but there are so many that’s wrong about it and what it’s not containing it’s just, it’s just a lack of leadership.”
#15118846
Another humiliating blow for the Lockdown Liberals. France just recorded 10000 new case in a single day. France was almost the poster child for lockdown fascism, a lockdown so severe that it must have made a lot of leftists feeling like they were back in the good old days of Joseph Stalin, Nicolae Ceausescu and Enver Hoxha.

The current death rate in France is actually not that bad. The problem is that its worse than Sweden. The last thing that Covid fascists can admit is that the whole draconian Orwellian lockdown was a complete waste of time. France of course had a strong authoritarian Communist current. And this wasn't some wishy washy namby pamby Euro Communists like in Italy oh no these were full on tankies.
#15118859
You bet @Fasces. I'd heard that too, as I have a friend who lives in a town south of Shanghai(Ningbo).


Thailand's been similar, with the virus being gone pretty fast and schools, bars, etc. opening on July 1.

Fasces wrote:The problem isn't lockdowns, its folks like Rich.
QFT.


Also, Americans are afraid to make comparisons to SE Asian countries, because it shows how fucking dumb they are, when they do.
#15118876
Fasces wrote:The problem isn't lockdowns, its folks like Rich.

:lol: What a stupid ignorant arsehole thing to say. Sadly I'm no longer young, but in all my years I've never had flu once. The best way to avoid spreading decease is to be healthy and not to get it in the first place. I don't go to pubs, I don't go to clubs. I don't drink alcohol. I don't take drugs. I'm not obese.

The one death that I've been close to was a friend of mines's sister committed suicide, the lockdown was not the only reason for her suicide, but she was in a lot pain with dental problems. It wasn't me that closed the dental practices. Luckily as I indicated I'm not on medication or receiving treatment, but I'm not the one that pretty much closed down the hospitals and the health care system. I'm also not responsible for discharging the old people into care homes, or ordering them not to be resuscitated. Where I live has a very low rate. Its most certainly not people like me that drove up the death rate in New York, London and Brussels, because people like me have no desire to live in the middle of big cities.

I've actually been finding the lack of social distancing on the high street quite challenging recently, because although I don't support the lock down, masks or compulsory social distancing, I try strenuously hard to respect the wishes of those that do, I always apply caution until I know that someone is happy not to social distance. I had two hugs on the way th to the supermarket the other day, but that was initiated by them not because I imposed my views, my preferences on others.

I knew at the start of this that I was capable of sustaining a discipline for a long period of time and I also knew at the start of this that a lot of people wouldn't be able to sustain a discipline. At times now the high street is totally rammed, only a tiny proportion are wearing mask and all pretence of social distancing has been abandoned. As I said I find it a challenge not being able to respect peoples right to socially distance. Until recently I would step out in the road, but motorists no longer tolerate that any more.

The whole thing has become a farce, at least where I live, with the imposition of arbitrary rules that are in no way part of a rational plan of suppression. But you carry on with your pathetic little fantasies that the lockdowns would have worker marvellously if hadn't been for the tiny minority like me that opposed the lock down from the start. I haven't been to Japan, but I have been to Germany, When the man is Red , the pedestrians don't cross. Britain's just not like, Christ in Britain even the politicians and so called experts who are laying down the rules don't keep to them.
Last edited by Rich on 11 Sep 2020 04:37, edited 1 time in total.
#15118878
You are stating that lockdowns don't work. This is simply not the true.

Lockdowns don't work without compliance, and there might be a cultural resistance in Anglo society that makes lockdowns ineffective because of the general non-compliance of that social groups, but this does not mean lockdowns work.

The best thing the British or Americans could have done was the Korean route to prevent the outbreak in the first place with aggressive contact tracing through mandatory phone apps that trace the location - but muh privacy rights...

Once the outbreak happened, they should have done as China did - a severe and total lockdown for 3 weeks nationally and 6 weeks at the initial outbreak site - and I mean severe. Arrests for anyone outside. Close roads and communities. Accept 6 weeks of total lockdown and yes, with the government footing the bill to keep the lights on and food delivered, and they'd be well past the whole damn thing and back to normal like most of Asia.

It isn't rocket science, these countries figured out the correct plan of attack in March, and the sheer scale of the pandemic in the West highlights the failures of both liberal culture and liberal politics.
#15118911
Fasces wrote:You are stating that lockdowns don't work. This is simply not the true.

Lockdowns don't work without compliance, and there might be a cultural resistance in Anglo society that makes lockdowns ineffective because of the general non-compliance of that social groups, but this does not mean lockdowns work.

The best thing the British or Americans could have done was the Korean route to prevent the outbreak in the first place with aggressive contact tracing through mandatory phone apps that trace the location - but muh privacy rights...

Once the outbreak happened, they should have done as China did - a severe and total lockdown for 3 weeks nationally and 6 weeks at the initial outbreak site - and I mean severe. Arrests for anyone outside. Close roads and communities. Accept 6 weeks of total lockdown and yes, with the government footing the bill to keep the lights on and food delivered, and they'd be well past the whole damn thing and back to normal like most of Asia.

It isn't rocket science, these countries figured out the correct plan of attack in March, and the sheer scale of the pandemic in the West highlights the failures of both liberal culture and liberal politics.


There are large differences in the West. I don't think Southern Europe is more liberal than Northern Europe, but it seems to have a mucher harder time handling this. Maybe because people are less compliant, but I think it's primarily a cultural issue, that they're simply less capable of social distancing. Or maybe I'm dwelling in cliches here. :hmm:
#15118922
It's not about social distancing, but about social responsibility and how willing the people are to do things to help protect others.

Many SE Asian countries, that did very well, are normally very socially interactive. Social distancing works because the people do it, not because it's cultural. eg. Groups of people eating together out of the same dishes is very commonplace, in Thailand. They probably have more social interaction that most North Americans.
#15118937
I agree it's primarily culture. IN fact @Godstud you are showing it is cultural. SE Asians are MORE social culturally speaking, yet they have lower rates as you pointed out. Why? because culturally, they feel a strong obligation to take care of each other. In the west, ESPECIALLY America, we are very individualistic. It's much more about "Fuck everyone else, I'm getting what's mine". This creates a culture where people DO NOT feel obligated to take care of each other.

Oddly enough, that flaw in American culture is also the source material that explains why there is so much innovation in America. Silicon Valley was created EXACTLY because people said "fuck you, I'm going it on my own". In case you didn't know, basically the fathers of silicon valley (Intel, fairchild, etc. etc.) went to California to escape the eastern tech giants IBM, ATT, GE, etc. All of this also ties into the influence that westward "wild west" expansion has left on American culture 100 years prior to Silicon Valley. It's all about "fuck everyone else, I'm taking care of myself". This is deeply ingrained in American culture, and it goes back to the colonial days. You have to take the good with the bad, so to speak.

Where it falls flat on its face is a pandemic respopnse. :hmm:

Ultimately, in my VERY biased opinion, I'm ok with a shit pandemic attitude in many Americans, if it means we still get to invent cool shit. :lol: I'm an engineer, what can I say. That said, it would be nice if more Americans took this more seriously. That said, OPEN THE SCHOOLS! :lol:

Last, in defense of America. It's a patchwork here. Austin is doing very well with its response. It's is not, across the board bad.
Last edited by Rancid on 11 Sep 2020 15:22, edited 1 time in total.
#15118952
Fasces wrote:You are stating that lockdowns don't work. This is simply not the true.

Lockdowns don't work without compliance, and there might be a cultural resistance in Anglo society that makes lockdowns ineffective because of the general non-compliance of that social groups, but this does not mean lockdowns work.

I'm saying that lockdowns are totally unnecessary fascistic acts.

Saying that there should be no lock downs is not the same as saying there should be no voluntary isolation, social distancing voluntary or compulsory, mask wearing voluntarily or compulsorily, closing down of certain classes of business notably pubs and clubs, limitations on the use of public transport, restrictions on medical care and dentistry, restrictions on travel and in particular restriction of travel out of high contagion areas or locally managed systems for the reduction of comings and going in high density, bottleneck situations such as tower blocks.

I'm not saying that I support any, or some or all the above methods in any particular time and place in any particular pandemic, but I'm saying they are all reasonable methods that could be up for negotiation. But I can not imagine any epidemic situation where a lockdown would be justified. I can not imagine any situation where the benefits of a lockdown in terms of the reduction of decease spread would justify its harmful health effects, its reduction of personal freedoms and the severe and extremely disturbing effects on democracy, right of assembly and civil liberties. Covid, the Xi virus what ever you want to call it is not the Black Death, but to my mind even the return of the Black Death would not justify a lock down.
#15118956
Rich wrote:I'm saying that lockdowns are totally unnecessary fascistic acts.
So? You say a lot of really stupid things that aren't true.

Since when is doing something for the greater good considered fascist?
#15118974
@Rich I don't go to pubs, I don't go to clubs. I don't drink alcohol. I don't take drugs. I'm not obese.


You may not live to be 90 but it will certainly seem like it.
  • 1
  • 33
  • 34
  • 35
  • 36
  • 37
  • 52
A Good Video for Trump Supporters to Watch

@Sivad but Trump has just as many fervid hate[…]

Over the years in the US... Some of the groups w[…]

The Two Forms of Socialism

'Digit' robot for sale and ready to perform manual[…]

Election 2020

President Trump is not a career criminal politicia[…]