China threatens to use military force to prevent Nancy Peolosi's Visit to Taiwan - Page 8 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15241812
Personally, I understand the desire to support Taiwan democracy. However, in my view, Nancy made a mistake in visiting Taiwan. In my view, she should have not visited at the request of President Biden. Such a visit by her, would torpedo his foreign policy. I think his foreign policy serves the best interests of the United States. Therefore, it was a mistake in my opinion for her to visit.
#15241816
Rugoz wrote:Did you hack his account? :lol:


No. If China appears weak it serves his interest to rally against China since it helps his East Turkestan fellows.

Besides, in the Ukraine war thread @Independent_Srpska posted a picture condemning Turkey being in the United State's side. If I were @Istanbuller I would feel being pushed away.

(P.S. Turkey had conquered Srpska before and it could happen again)


Istanbuller wrote:Turkey is too close to Russia geographically. We can't ignore Russia.


I understand, as this was how Atatürk succeeded in his three-front war of independence.
#15241817
Drlee wrote:There is serious doubt that the Republican party would support a war to protect Taiwan. It never met a despot it did not like.


From what I learn, most despotic regimes fell as a result of policies during Republican administration. Most prominently, communist regimes in Europe (including Soviet Union itself), Iraq, Panama.

Even Spain and Greece's dictatorship ended during a Republican administration, but I concede that the US had done nothing there.

Libya was probably the only major despotic regime to fall during a Democrat administration.
#15241818
Fasces wrote:The US recognizes (Republic of) Chinese ownership of the SCS (well the Spratleys and other islands) in the Treaty of Taipei that ended WW2. Article 2. Japan even acknowledged that the Treaty applies to PRC. I'm not expecting the rest of Asia to agree with the Treaty, but the whole controversy, from the US perspective, seems rather artificial.



The South China Sea problem was mainly because of these two things:

1. When the West recognized ROC's supremacy over the area, almost none of the ASEAN states were even independent. In other words, ROC was the only local independent nation capable to look after the place, very much like how the Melanesian islands were awarded to Japan after WW1.
2. The CCP's rapid usurpation was unexpected and the West bowed to power a few decades later.

Ideally, the most coherent response here is to deny PRC's legitimacy, while conceding that the recognition existed and was a mistake.
But as things stand, China is too big and there's no one in the area who can actually fight back like Ukraine does in Europe.

In some sense it's a mistake for the West to let go of the Third World half a century ago, as that made them unable to conduct justice where it's needed.
Last edited by Patrickov on 06 Aug 2022 06:00, edited 2 times in total.
#15241819
late wrote:If Xi attacks Taiwan, and we sanction China, their economy collapses into a Great Depression.


You think about strategy against China as if it's a First-world country. The flaw here is that a large portion of China is still Third-world. What we perceive as economic collapse is probably nothing to those cave-dwellers in Shanxi or Shaanxi (two neighbouring provinces but the name not quite the same in Chinese)

As a matter of fact, Xi Jinping came from that area, and his policies probably align more with people there. It's the coast dwellers and those like us in Hong Kong who cannot stand what he (and his minions) had done, to the point that we will be happy to see those people dying a horrible death. That said, they probably have more endurance than us Hongkongers, so I personally cannot come up with anything that can effectively punish the wrongdoers.

God, deliver us!


P.S.
As a conspiracy theory, though, from what he suffered during the Cultural Revolution, it might be that case that Xi is the Avenger who intentionally ruins China to avenge his family's sufferings. In the process, though, he turned out to be the bigger monster than Mao (probably the one who's the most responsible of Xi's suffering) was.
#15241821
Politics_Observer wrote:Personally, I understand the desire to support Taiwan democracy. However, in my view, Nancy made a mistake in visiting Taiwan. In my view, she should have not visited at the request of President Biden. Such a visit by her, would torpedo his foreign policy. I think his foreign policy serves the best interests of the United States. Therefore, it was a mistake in my opinion for her to visit.


What do you think is Biden's foreign policy then?

I know you will say "War is Hell" again, and I do know how true it is now that we have a war on hand. But for many people in and around China, they are suffering severe loss of hope and probably nothing short of a major war can bring enough disturbance to help them turn the table around.

IMHO no decision is perfect. If she decided not to visit then others will perceive the US as weak. At least most people around me perceive China as the weak one now.


P.S.
Pelosi also made that decision because she had nothing to lose herself. Very much like Trump, but Pelosi is, of course, the righteous one here.

BlutoSays should be relieved that Pelosi was not President, otherwise with her influence on two administrative branches out of the three in the US, not only Trump and his aides, but BlutoSays himself would probably have to die in prison.
#15241840
Independent_Srpska wrote:Pelosi's visits already brings great improvements to the world.


There's an old Chinese saying called 道不同,不相為謀.
That means, it's effectively impossible for two entities with vastly conflicting interests to plan and work together.

China's ambitions and mindset inevitably harms a lot of people's freedom (and thus the ability to live a meaningful life).
And the Chinese nation is either incapable or unwilling to understand this.
There is probably not very much space for talk.

In a positive light, one can do 兄弟爬山,各自努力 (do the right thing in different ways without interfering others) to achieve a common goal.

But I don't think this is viable, especially when people like Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping, Igor Antunov or Independent_Srpska are involved.
#15241843
That's beautiful.
Let me answer you by quoting the old Vinchian proverb (Vincha is the oldest known European culture at least 8000 years old. It is the place in Serbia on the banks of Danube.)

It basically says this (written in original Vincha symbols):

Image

It translates like this:
"Bad people like you and your kind, representing hyenas orbiting around the murdering USA, shouldn't be preaching with your mouth full of carcasses of innocent souls, about benefits of being a vegetarian."
#15241854
Sandzak wrote:@Independent_Srpska

We Slavs conquered the Balkan region in 5th Century. We have nothing to to with Vincha.


That's not quite correct, but still I never said Vincha is a Slavic civilization or that anyone has any connections with them.
Though, it is way more likely people who live there , around Vinca nowadays, could have DNA from Vinča people.

Still, the point was to expose Patrickov's hypocrisy, which is of course a value in his bad-person mindset.
#15241871
Meanwhile speaking of China.

This seems to have been a bone headed move on Pelosi's part. I can't see what was to gain from it. I do not buy for a moment that she went against Biden's wishes.

My guess is that she went to deliver an important lie. There is a massive bill that funds subsidies to build semi-conductor plants in the US. Taiwan is a major semiconductor manufacturing center. 35% of its exports are electronic sub-assemblies and 50% electronic equipment. The lie is that Taiwan has nothing to fear in this bill. That is, of course, untrue.

Why Pelosi? She is an important official and she is from California which has a large Taiwanese population. Her constituents. And she is considered not politically vulnerable.

I really don't understand Biden's foreign policy. It has been a disaster from the start. The fleeing in the face of the enemy from Afghanistan, lukewarm and confusing response in Ukraine, weak response to Putin, failure (so far) to pass meaningful climate legislation and now this. Our allies have to be puzzled, at best, about this seemingly nonsensical escalation.

Will the whole thing with China come unraveled? I don't think so. Part of the calculus for them has to be which country can better survive an economic showdown. My guess is that it is about a wash. The US feeds on China stuff and though we have plenty of ready money to use to replace their exports we do not have time. China's economy is teetering. I am putting this trip of hers in the "bone headed" column. It makes me even more likely to vote Republican next time. Who knows. They may even find an adult to run for president in 24. It could happen.
#15241876
@Patrickov

I understand you're anti-China and for good reason. However, in the case of Pelosi, and in my view, her visit was a mistake, was that there was no payoff for the United States. We are currently dealing with Russia and it's in our interest to keep China on the sidelines in regard to that conflict. It's not in our interests to antagonize China and such a move provided no payoff to us in terms of our long-term objective in foreign policy. Our foreign policy is aimed at China and Russia. It's just that it's in our interests to keep China on the sidelines in regard to the conflict in Ukraine.
#15241878
Politics_Observer wrote:@Patrickov

I understand you're anti-China and for good reason. However, in the case of Pelosi, and in my view, her visit was a mistake, was that there was no payoff for the United States. We are currently dealing with Russia and it's in our interest to keep China on the sidelines in regard to that conflict. It's not in our interests to antagonize China and such a move provided no payoff to us in terms of our long-term objective in foreign policy. Our foreign policy is aimed at China and Russia. It's just that it's in our interests to keep China on the sidelines in regard to the conflict in Ukraine.


If Taiwan War brakes out, Putin will declare mass mobilisation and attack Western Europe, The USA would be too busy with China to send troops to Europe.
Last edited by Sandzak on 06 Aug 2022 16:39, edited 1 time in total.
#15241879
There is a line in The Expanse that says roughly that conflict is the same, fractally.

It's because we're human, and we react similarly to being pushed around or attacked. Doesn't matter if it's one person or a nation.

Xi is a bully. He conquered a small piece of India, there was no point to it, it was just good PR back home. He has laid claim to the South China Sea, which ignores international law, and I think agreements China agreed to. You guys prob don't pay attention, but he's pushed around the Asian countries he can push.

Over the years, we have been extraordinarily nice to China, and this is our reward.

Enough was enough. Pelosi did not go there by accident. "There are no accidents in politics, if it happened, it happened that way for a reason." Truman

We have the beginnings of a new policy towards China and Taiwai, or at least, it looks that way.

In any case, I don't have a problem with it.
#15241888
Politics_Observer wrote:
@late

I understand that China is a bully, but it's better to deal with one foreign policy challenge at a time, rather than two foreign policy challenges both at the same time.



Way I see it, that depends on where Biden goes from here.

My guess is Biden wanted to send a message, that it was a twofer is incidental.
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