[wat0n]

Not that I can see.

What percentage of police killings of black people are committed by black cops?

Likely a low one, for the simple reason that cops are roughly distributed like their share of the population. And that means around 2/3 of cops are white.

Maybe, but this was a traffic stop.

So let us look at that.

In terms of traffic stops leading to police killings of black people, what information do we need before addressing the systemic racism that leads to such killings?

Why don't you address all the other stuff I mentioned regarding traffic stops? It's relevant to your question below:

This does not explain how systemic racism came about.

Perhaps you would do better if you focused on a specific form of systemic racism.

For example, how did it end up that blacks get stopped more than whites in traffic stops?

How doesn't it explain how systemic racism came about?

Are you saying most people in the 1800s in the US, and the West in general, wouldn't be regarded as racist today?

[late]

Are you saying most people in the 1800s in the US, and the West in general, wouldn't be regarded as racist today?

They were racist, but the dynamic was the terror campaign that killed some number of thousands, and drove millions out of the South.

That's what Republicans are trying to bring back.

[Pants-of-dog]

Likely a low one, for the simple reason that cops are roughly distributed like their share of the population. And that means around 2/3 of cops are white.

If the lack of cop killings by black cops is simply a result of a lack of black cops, then

Why don't you address all the other stuff I mentioned regarding traffic stops? It's relevant to your question below:

It seemed entirely speculative. Perhaps you can clarify how it relates to the murder of Mr. Nichols.

How doesn't it explain how systemic racism came about?

Are you saying most people in the 1800s in the US, and the West in general, wouldn't be regarded as racist today?

No. I think I understand the problem.

[wat0n]

If the lack of cop killings by black cops is simply a result of a lack of black cops, then

Then...? I mean, if you assume white cops are as likely to kill African Americans as black ones then ~2/3 of killings should be done by white cops.

It seemed entirely speculative. Perhaps you can clarify how it relates to the murder of Mr. Nichols.

Possibly, that the fact that it started with a traffic stop doesn't really explain why did Nichols get murdered by itself.

No. I think I understand the problem.

What's the problem? That anyone can see 21st century values aren't exactly the same as those from the 19th century?

@late out of curiosity, do you agree with those who believe it doesn't matter if Democrats or Republicans are in charge when it comes to systemic racism? As in, those who believe both the North and the South are not radically different as far as systemic racism is concerned?

[Pants-of-dog]

Then...? I mean, if you assume white cops are as likely to kill African Americans as black ones then ~2/3 of killings should be done by white cops.

Possibly, that the fact that it started with a traffic stop doesn't really explain why did Nichols get murdered by itself.

What's the problem? That anyone can see 21st century values aren't exactly the same as those from the 19th century?

So, what is your argument that this has nothing to do with systemic racism?

[wat0n]

@Pants-of-dog

- There was no premeditation, meaning the cops didn't even think about race or systemic issues before doing the beating

- The DA moved quickly to prosecute and neither the city nor the PD tried to cover it up, all despite the lack of new legislation reforming police

- Memphis's population is mostly Black, so African Americans aren't an isolated minority there and are (obviously) those who effectively elect whoever runs the city

- The cops, being Black themselves, are likely aware of race and racism in America and have not been shown to be endofobic



- The cops tried to set a shitty excuse up, meaning they felt the need to excuse themselves and the fact it's so poorly made reinforces the idea of no premeditation

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog

- There was no premeditation, meaning the cops didn't even think about race or systemic issues before doing the beating

Since premeditation is not required for systemic racism, this does not disprove systemic racism.

- The DA moved quickly to prosecute and neither the city nor the PD tried to cover it up, all despite the lack of new legislation reforming police

This is why I am claiming that/systemic racism affected the behaviour of the cops during the attack but was not a significant factor afterwards.

- Memphis's population is mostly Black, so African Americans aren't an isolated minority there and are (obviously) those who effectively elect whoever runs the city

Demographics do not make systemic racism impossible. Note that South Africa under Apartheid had systemic racism despite white minorities.

- The cops, being Black themselves, are likely aware of race and racism in America and have not been shown to be endofobic

This is a reason why it is not individual racism. It does not contradict systemic racism at all.

- The cops tried to set a shitty excuse up, meaning they felt the need to excuse themselves and the fact it's so poorly made reinforces the idea of no premeditation

It does reinforce the idea that they thought they would get away with it and other cops would help,them. This supports the idea of systemic racism.

So, all in all, you do not have a good argument for there being no systemic racism in this incidnet.

[wat0n]

Since premeditation is not required for systemic racism, this does not disprove systemic racism.

Oh really? How so?

This is why I am claiming that/systemic racism affected the behaviour of the cops during the attack but was not a significant factor afterwards.

How so? The moment you say the cops took institutional factors into account in deciding whether to bear Tyre Nichols up, you are saying there was premeditation.

Demographics do not make systemic racism impossible. Note that South Africa under Apartheid had systemic racism despite white minorities.

Needless to say, the Black majority can and does vote.

It does reinforce the idea that they thought they would get away with it and other cops would help,them. This supports the idea of systemic racism.

How so? Were that true, they wouldn't have felt a need to make up an excuse.

Note there was no guarantee the video would be made public, but there was guarantee it would be watched by both cops and prosecutors.

So, all in all, you do not have a good argument for there being no systemic racism in this incidnet.

I beg to disagree, furthermore it would actually be good if you could explain what's the argument to claim this beating was caused by systemic racism. It is you, not me, who has to prove it in light of the circumstances.

Did the cops take institutional factors into account? If so, prove it.

[late]

BS

Jim Crow was restrained, not destroyed, and now it's making a comeback.

We're in a historic resurgence of racism. At least, that's what the FBI says...

[wat0n]

Jim Crow was restrained, not destroyed, and now it's making a comeback.

We're in a historic resurgence of racism. At least, that's what the FBI says...

Are you done with the gospel? How did systemic racism cause this specific case?

[late]

Are you done with the gospel?

You mean facts.

This has been going on for well over 100 years, and you're still trying to play ingenue...

[Pants-of-dog]

Oh really? How so?

How so? The moment you say the cops took institutional factors into account in deciding whether to bear Tyre Nichols up, you are saying there was premeditation.

How so? Were that true, they wouldn't have felt a need to make up an excuse.

Note there was no guarantee the video would be made public, but there was guarantee it would be watched by both cops and prosecutors.

I am not repeating myself again.

Needless to say, the Black majority can and does vote.

When did the first Memphis public official who openly wanted to address systemic racism run for the first time?

Prior to that date, voting would not have changed anything.

I beg to disagree, furthermore it would actually be good if you could explain what's the argument to claim this beating was caused by systemic racism. It is you, not me, who has to prove it in light of the circumstances.

I already explained the argument for systemic racism three or four times.

Now we are focusing on your argument that there was ho systemic racism. It does not seem to be working.

Did the cops take institutional factors into account? If so, prove it.

Well, you just provided evidence that they were almost certainly aware of institutional racism, since you just showed a Pew report showing that most black cops think cops need to do more to address racism.

You seem to be arguing that they were aware of institutional factors but then happened to forget about them entirely between the moment they first saw Mr. Nichols and the moment they killed him.

If that is your argument that systemic racism was hot a factor, it is not a good one.

[wat0n]

@late how did systemic racism cause this incident?

I am not repeating myself again.

Good. So you admit your narrative is internally inconsistent and therefore wrong.

When did the first Memphis public official who openly wanted to address systemic racism run for the first time?

Prior to that date, voting would not have changed anything.

Quick search would suggest it's at least in 1991, possibly earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Herenton

I already explained the argument for systemic racism three or four times.

No, you did not. Thus far you've only provided inconsistent explanations of how did systemic racism cause this incident.

Now we are focusing on your argument that there was ho systemic racism. It does not seem to be working.

How so?

Well, you just provided evidence that they were almost certainly aware of institutional racism, since you just showed a Pew report showing that most black cops think cops need to do more to address racism.

You seem to be arguing that they were aware of institutional factors but then happened to forget about them entirely between the moment they first saw Mr. Nichols and the moment they killed him.

If that is your argument that systemic racism was hot a factor, it is not a good one.

So what you are saying is that they acted with malice, believing such institutional factors would let them walk free. If so, how can this incident not be premeditated?

[Pants-of-dog]

Good. So you admit your narrative is internally inconsistent and therefore wrong.

No, you did not. Thus far you've only provided inconsistent explanations of how did systemic racism cause this incident.

No. It just means that I do not want to explain it you for a fifth time.

Quick search would suggest it's at least in 1991, possibly earlier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Herenton

So there were black mayors only in the last thirty years.

When did the first candidate who spoke openly of systemic racism run?

How so?

Well, you still have not explained how the murderers allowed themselves to be recorded on camera lying about an excuse if they did not believe other cops would cover for them.

You also seem to think they were aware of institutional racism. But then you also argue that they did not think about it since that would he premeditation according to you.

So what you are saying is that they acted with malice, believing such institutional factors would let them walk free. If so, how can this incident not be premeditated?

Because they did not plan it beforehand. In fact, it seems they did not plan this murder at all.

[Rancid]

Black/White/Black/White/Black/White/Black/White/Black/White/Black/White/Black/White/Black/White

[wat0n]

No. It just means that I do not want to explain it you for a fifth time.

You mean to repeat your inconsistencies for a fifth time.

So there were black mayors only in the last thirty years.

When did the first candidate who spoke openly of systemic racism run?

I don't know, but this Black mayor served for five consecutive terms under an equality platform.

Well, you still have not explained how the murderers allowed themselves to be recorded on camera lying about an excuse if they did not believe other cops would cover for them.

It wasn't premeditated, that's why this happened to begin with. They carry bodycams because of a department mandate. If they thought systemic racism would let them scots free, then they wouldn't have bothered to make up an excuse after the fact simply because they'd believed the footage would have been never shown to the public and they'd never been prosecuted.

You also seem to think they were aware of institutional racism. But then you also argue that they did not think about it since that would he premeditation according to you.

Yes, and it's also possible they see systemic racism as being important but only when others are involved.

Because they did not plan it beforehand. In fact, it seems they did not plan this murder at all.

And if they didn't plan this, then how could it be motivated by systemic racism?

[late]

@late how did systemic racism cause this incident?

Trolling won't save you.

[Pants-of-dog]

You mean to repeat your inconsistencies for a fifth time.
I don't know, but this Black mayor served for five consecutive terms under an equality platform.

So as far as you know, voters have never been asked to address systemic racism.

It wasn't premeditated, that's why this happened to begin with. They carry bodycams because of a department mandate. If they thought systemic racism would let them scots free, then they wouldn't have bothered to make up an excuse after the fact simply because they'd believed the footage would have been never shown to the public and they'd never been prosecuted.

That still does not explain why they knowingly lied on camera.

Yes, and it's also possible they see systemic racism as being important but only when others are involved.

So you agree that they are aware of systemic racism. Why would they have conveniently forgotten about systemic racism during the encounter with, and killing of, Mr. Nichols?

[wat0n]

@late calling me names is a poor way to explain this crime.

So as far as you know, voters have never been asked to address systemic racism.

So what you are saying is that the first Black mayor of Memphis did not try to combat systemic racism? The same one who ran under a racial equality platform? The same one who was reelected for 5 consecutive terms by an electorate that is solidly African American?

Is that what you're saying? Because I recall you claimed a small number of well-placed officials can dismantle systemic racism. Yet that seems exactly what he campaigned for and his constituents were happy with his work if he was elected for 5 terms in a row.

That still does not explain why they knowingly lied on camera.

They likely thought it was their only way to provide some sort of defense of their actions. A defense they felt necessary because they realized they risked punishment.

So you agree that they are aware of systemic racism. Why would they have conveniently forgotten about systemic racism during the encounter with, and killing of, Mr. Nichols?

Do you know for a fact they believe the City of Memphis is a systemically racist jurisdiction? If so, why make an excuse up? Cops didn't bother to do so during Jim Crow.

How do you know their state of mind was such that they maliciously believed they could get away with a beating because of systemic racism? Is that consistent with a poor attempt to cover for their actions?

Note the prosecution decided not to charge them for first degree murder.

[late]

[usermention=41202]


@late[/usermention] calling me names is a poor way to explain this crime.

Piling lame excuse on top of lame excuse is a piss poor way of going through life.