[QatzelOk]

The US attempt to replace the political and tribal structures in Afghanistan with a democracy in which nationalism takes pride of place has ended.

So you REALLY believe that this is why the USA invaded Afghanistan? Seriously?

For me, this was such obviously empty PR.

Stealing oil in Iraq, Libya and Syria, keeping an eye out for pipelines in Afghanistan, killing millions all over the world and poisoning international relations in order to keep the price of driving a big car nice and low.

Dropping uranium or chem weapons on civilians until all their babies have birth defects. Showing how much you hate certain ethnicities, while worshipping (moneyed) others.

► Show Spoiler

Now, roll up your sleeve, it's time for your medicine.

[Torus34]

So you REALLY believe that this is why the USA invaded Afghanistan? Seriously?

For me, this was such obviously empty PR.

Stealing oil in Iraq, Libya and Syria, keeping an eye out for pipelines in Afghanistan, killing millions all over the world and poisoning international relations in order to keep the price of driving a big car nice and low.

Dropping uranium or chem weapons on civilians until all their babies have birth defects. Showing how much you hate certain ethnicities, while worshipping (moneyed) others.

► Show Spoiler

Now, roll up your sleeve, it's time for your medicine.

Hi, QatzelOK!

With regard to the first sentence of your response to my post, I did not say that installing a democracy was the 'real' or even the primary reason for the invasion.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

[QatzelOk]

With regard to the first sentence of your response to my post, I did not say that installing a democracy was the 'real' or even the primary reason for the invasion.

Here is what you wrote:

The US attempt to replace the political and tribal structures in Afghanistan with a democracy in which nationalism takes pride of place has ended.

This sentence suggests that - what has ended is an attempt at democracy creation. You write that "this has ended," which means you are saying that it was ongoing, and then stopped.

If you didn't mean to suggest that "democracy and free ice cream" was the reason for the Afghanistan atrocity, then you should have chosen better words.

Stay safe and read lots of books!

[Torus34]

Here is what you wrote:

The US attempt to replace the political and tribal structures in Afghanistan with a democracy in which nationalism takes pride of place has ended.

This sentence suggests that - what has ended is an attempt at democracy creation. You write that "this has ended," which means you are saying that it was ongoing, and then stopped.

If you didn't mean to suggest that "democracy and free ice cream" was the reason for the Afghanistan atrocity, then you should have chosen better words.

Stay safe and read lots of books!

Hi again, QatzelOK;

I stand by my post as written.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

[Potemkin]

If it helps, @QatzelOk, imagine @Torus34 saying it in a sardonic tone of voice.

[Igor Antunov]

China a ‘welcome friend’ for reconstruction in Afghanistan: Taliban spokesman

“We welcome them. If they have investments of course we ensure their safety. Their safety is very important for us,” he said by phone.

Suhail also said the Taliban would no longer allow China’s Uyghur separatist fighters, some of whom had previously sought refuge in Afghanistan, to enter the country.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics ... an-taliban

[B0ycey]

The US attempt to replace the political and tribal structures in Afghanistan with a democracy in which nationalism takes pride of place has ended. Afghanistan will become whatever the people of Afghanistan accept. [Ed.: Please note 'accept' as opposed to 'want'.] Theirs is, and has been, a culture in which religion and tribal affiliation, including fealty to 'strongmen', determines the structure of government.

I am surprised we have had few comments on PoFo about this since Bidens announcement that he was speeding up withdrawal given this is the biggest news going on right now. But your post stands out given you have written an outcome or cause which clearly wasn't met. If the goal was to replace tribal structures with democracy in Afghanistan, America lost the war as the tribes are regaining territory in Afghanistan and democracy there is a joke. That isn't to say I don't agree with the action of getting out of Afghanistan (I was always against the war), but we are leaving Afghanistan is a worse state than what it was before we entered and this is all happening during a time the Taliban is gaining ground. The Taliban may even win the civil war meaning we really would have achieved nothing. So I say let's cut out the BS. We could not do anything for Afghanistan given they were never interested in our ideals. Those that do have them are now left to fight for themselves and they are out numbered by the Taliban. In other words we cannot afford to fight anymore so we are out and what targets we had don't matter now given their is no profits left there. That is the truth of the matter and now we must learn to stay out of these types of wars in the future so we don't repeat this mistake ever again.

[Politics_Observer]

@B0ycey

The main reason why went into Afghanistan is simple: to get Bin Laden in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. That's the only reason why we went into Afghanistan.

[ingliz]

The main reason why went into Afghanistan is simple: to get Bin Laden in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. That's the only reason why we went into Afghanistan.

Don't be daft.

It was another one of your pipeline wars.

[Politics_Observer]

@ingliz

These are conspiracy theories that some people come up with around the world for our reasons for invading Afghanistan. But the reason is simple. It's not complicated. 3,000 Americans were killed in a terrorist attack on American soil, Bin Laden was responsible, the Taliban had Bin Laden as "their guest" and refused to hand Bin Laden over to us. Therefore, we invaded Afghanistan to get Bin Laden since the Taliban wouldn't hand over "their guest."

[Politics_Observer]

@ingliz

Remember what I said about the Afghans. When you are "their guest" they will literally fight and die for you to protect you from anyone and everything and I do mean everyone or anything, literally. Even if you are a criminal. This is part of their culture and mentality. Radically different culture and mentality from many parts of the world. It's their extreme form of hospitality. Bin Laden was fully aware of this too and was using the Afghan's extreme form of hospitality to draw us into a trap.

[B0ycey]

@B0ycey

The main reason why went into Afghanistan is simple: to get Bin Laden in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. That's the only reason why we went into Afghanistan.

Bin Laden was found in Pakistan though PO. And of course you didn't pull out after he was killed anyway.

The reason you stayed in Afghanistan was because America knew they were going to be a target again of copycat attacks should the Taliban regain Afghanistan once you left. So you had to back your chosen government no matter what. Since you have made a deal with the Taliban, America knows as long as you leave, you won't be seen as an enemy by them meaning there is no reason to stay there for you now as you shouldn't see a copycat attack... although there is, the people who support the current government are now sitting ducks. This is a war you lost, like Vietnam, and pretending you achieved anything is trying to justify the deaths of your soldiers somehow.

[MadMonk]

@B0ycey

The main reason why went into Afghanistan is simple: to get Bin Laden in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. That's the only reason why we went into Afghanistan.

Bin Laden was an excuse. Dick Cheney and his cronies were doing a conga line while the towers were still falling.

Might as well end it like this. A fucking disaster but what else is new? Iran and Pakistan will carve it up between them, Russia China and India on the sidelines hedging their bets.

Afghanistan will remain Afghanistan, only a little worse then when you got there.

[Politics_Observer]

@B0ycey

Well, I'll tell you what, Afghanistan or Bin Laden didn't win anything either. Bin Laden is at the bottom of the ocean somewhere and Afghanistan is probably going to return back to the extreme Taliban rule. The Taliban is supported by Pakistan financially and with arms. The reason Pakistan supports the Taliban is to prevent Afghanistan from becoming a threat to them. That way, Pakistan only has to deal with one front: India. The Taliban also suffered a lot of heavy losses from our forces as well as allied NATO forces. Bin Laden was in Pakistan because he fled there during the initial invasion of our forces. Of course, Pakistan was giving Bin Laden protection after he fled Afghanistan. Hence why we covertly went into Pakistan without telling them to get Bin Laden.

[B0ycey]

@B0ycey

Well, I'll tell you what, Afghanistan or Bin Laden didn't win anything either. Bin Laden is at the bottom of the ocean somewhere and Afghanistan is probably going to return back to the extreme Taliban rule. The Taliban is supported by Pakistan financially and with arms. The reason Pakistan supports the Taliban is to prevent Afghanistan from becoming a threat to them. That way, Pakistan only has to deal with one front: India. The Taliban also suffered a lot of heavy losses from our forces as well as NATO forces.

Afghanistan is an entity so couldn't win or lose anything. Although given Bin Laden is dead, I will say he lost. Although the Taliban will win the war, very much like the Vietcong did given they will recapture the whole of Afghanistan. America would have had to enter the mountains to win this war and clearly they didn't want to do that given the amount of lives they would have lost.

[Politics_Observer]

@B0ycey

I can assure you, we were in the mountains fighting the Taliban. Afghanistan is also not just merely an "entity" but a country with people and various tribes. It's dissociative to call Afghanistan as merely just an "entity."

[B0ycey]

@B0ycey

I can assure you, we were in the mountains fighting the Taliban.

Then you didn't go into them far enough then. There were (are) plenty of regions in Northern Afghanistan they have ALWAYS been under Taliban rule. America gained Kabal and wastelands and then defended their gains with the exceptions of bombing campaigns in the mountains of course. But even the 'Mother of all Bombs', didn't break the Taliban I am afraid.

[Politics_Observer]

@B0ycey

You are never going to kill all the Taliban, especially when they have a safe haven in Pakistan and are financially and militarily supported by Pakistan. Even if you win all the battles against the Taliban, they'll still be there causing trouble somewhere. We certainly aren't going to commit genocide either just for the sake of eliminating all possible resistance nor are we going to over-extend ourselves and invade Pakistan just to get the Taliban.

[Potemkin]

@B0ycey

You are never going to kill all the Taliban, especially when they have a safe haven in Pakistan and are financially and militarily supported by Pakistan. Even if you win all the battles against the Taliban, they'll still be there causing trouble somewhere. We certainly aren't going to commit genocide either just for the sake of eliminating all possible resistance nor are we going to over-extend ourselves and invade Pakistan just to get the Taliban.

In other words, this was a war which ultimately you could not win.

[Politics_Observer]

@Potemkin

Basically yes. Our goal was to get Bin Laden and deny Afghanistan as a safe haven for terrorism. Bin Laden's goal was to draw us into a trap into Afghanistan using the 9/11 terrorist attacks to do so. After we were drawn into the trap, he wanted to protract out the conflict and force us to spend a bunch of money for little value in return. There is not much value to Afghanistan. However, we were aware of Afghanistan's history which was why tried to avoid sending too many soldiers over there. Eventually, we ended up sending a troop surge in 2010-2011 under Obama. There was some incompetent management of the Afghan War by Bush Jr because he adventured off into left field somewhere in Iraq by invading Iraq when we already had this war in Afghanistan and we needed to get Bin Laden.