[Pants-of-dog]

As I said the fertility rate in Western nations is well below 2.0. IN some countries is 1.6 which leads to population reduction in matter of a few decades. Because of low reproduction rates Western nations are allowing migration from the 3rd world where families of 15 immediately acquire a gigantic carbon foot print.

The entire world needs to reduce the fertility rate. However, as a contrarian I assume you will argue against this.

So even though developed countries have very low birth rates, they are still polluting immensely.

and developing countries are not polluting very much even though they have high birthrates.

And your stupid and wrong idea is to make the developing countries stop having kids, which would change nothing because developed countries are still polluting huge amounts.

Are you just going to keep repeating your stupid and wrong idea?

Did you want to move on to another stupid and wrong idea, instead?

[ckaihatsu]

Did you want to move on to another stupid and wrong idea, instead?

Um, do *I* get a vote in any of this...?


x D

[Julian658]

So even though developed countries have very low birth rates, they are still polluting immensely.

and developing countries are not polluting very much even though they have high birthrates.

And your stupid and wrong idea is to make the developing countries stop having kids, which would change nothing because developed countries are still polluting huge amounts.

Are you just going to keep repeating your stupid and wrong idea?

Did you want to move on to another stupid and wrong idea, instead?

POD

Your vituperative acrimonious full of frustration writing style is disturbing. I suggest, you take a break rom this.

[ckaihatsu]

Ooooops -- too 'dark-side', bro.


x D

[Pants-of-dog]

@Julian658

Your incorrect perception of my emotional state is not relevant.

Do you think that high birthrates among the world’s poorest are the main cause of climate change?

If so, then please reread the previous posts where I explain how wrong and stupid that is.

If not, then you concede that you are wrong.

[Julian658]

@Julian658

Your incorrect perception of my emotional state is not relevant.

OK, I was a bit worried. You are usually more sedated.

Do you think that high birthrates among the world’s poorest are the main cause of climate change?

Nope, climate change is caused by civilization. However, one day soon those in the 3rd world will have greater technological development.

If so, then please reread the previous posts where I explain how wrong and stupid that is.

If not, then you concede that you are wrong.

OK, POD: You win!
Poor people have a very low carbon foot print.

Should they migrate to the West to increased the carbon footprint?
Yes? No?

[Julian658]

I have to point out that these were *political* transitions, and that they had their (economic) costs.

Farmers farm better when they own the land and they can make a profit. How can you get arounds that? This is one of the stumbling blocks.

I'm not a Stalinist, but I support any *nationalization* efforts to collectivize the economy within any given country.

"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher. How do you incentivize socialists to create wealth. OK, you say there is no wealth in socialism. HOwever, something equivalent has to be produced by the people to have prosperity. Even the Incas had some sort of exchange system.

A communist economic system would be characterized by advanced productive technology that enables material abundance, which in turn would enable the free distribution. WIKI That sounds a lot like wealth.

What about present-day technologies, and the capacity for *full automation*?

Could we get to the point where a water-fountain-type kiosk could be installed *anywhere and everywhere*, and would instantly 3D-print any metal or plastic part, or parts, for the consumer, at negligible cost to public funds?

Absolutely yes! That is quite doable right now. However, it would put capitalists out of a job. For example i purchase Turbo Tax to do my taxes. I often wonder why the IRS cannot provide the software disc. The reason they don't is that they don't want to putv Turbo Tax out of business.

It would be 'materials on tap', and people could even quickly build shelters and homes from the parts printed -- at that point would your capitalism-based 'personal ownership' argument really hold up? All that would be needed would be enough *volunteers* to simply install these public 3D printers, which would probably be solar-powered, and the filament material would be cheaply produced in bulk and mass-available, like plastic sheets are today.

Plastic? POD is going to kill you!

Even if there was rampant vandalism, all that would mean is that more volunteers would be needed, and more machines installed and carted away, like those bike-rental thingees in major cities.

What if I want a better machine? CAn I build it?

Yes, we could call *any* political reformist efforts a 'cottage industry', because those soft-left efforts will never have any lasting effect against the behemoth of the capitalist status quo.

Wilde speaks to this dynamic as well:

Wow, you are making sense. I wish the left would find a different angle to help people. However, the lefty leaders and mediamake a ton of money out of poverty and racism.

No, allow me to clarify -- empire is *not* a 'social construction', in the sense of a 'subjective social reality', or 'groupthink', as with religion. It's a *material byproduct* of social *objective* reality -- empire *emerged* from empirical / objective factors, namely the societal production of a material *surplus*.

However, it is universal.

[Pants-of-dog]

Nope, climate change is caused by civilization. However, one day soon those in the 3rd world will have greater technological development.

Climate change is not caused by civilisation. It is caused by industrial use of fossil fuels.

Developing countries will only increase their carbon footprint significantly if they use fossil fuels at an industrial level. That can be avoided by providing non-fossil fuel technology to the developing world.

Should they migrate to the West to increased the carbon footprint?
Yes? No?

That is another racist argument: that we should halt migration from cleaner countries because the immigrants will pollute more when they arrive.

Have you noticed that you only care about climate change when it is non-whites who have to pay the price?

[ckaihatsu]

Farmers farm better when they own the land and they can make a profit. How can you get arounds that? This is one of the stumbling blocks.

Well, as I've mentioned, what *really* counts is the material *productivity*, and the process for this is changing quickly with recent technological advancements like hydroponics, robotics, automation, AI, etc.


FarmBot - open source backyard robot for a fully automated garden

Regarding collectivism itself, just look how farming is *done* these days -- it's *highly* mechanized and automated, to the point where I don't see why it has to be *private property* anymore. This isn't mom-n-pop stuff, it's highly computerized and could *easily* be done by the state, or better yet, the workers themselves, over *vast* expanses of land, without boundaries.

Remember, the larger the scale, and the more centralized, makes for far better *economies of scale*, versus the same done by *many* subdivided individual farms, that each has to have its own management, and which may all be *competing* with each other, for limited market share, which is inherently *wasteful*.

You're tied to the standard of *profit* / exchange value, while *I'm* thinking 'material efficiency', for the *most productivity*, per labor and material inputs.


---

"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher. How do you incentivize socialists to create wealth. OK, you say there is no wealth in socialism. HOwever, something equivalent has to be produced by the people to have prosperity. Even the Incas had some sort of exchange system.

See -- again you can't think outside of the *market mechanism* box.

What really *counts*? It's *material productivity*, and then how it's *distributed*. Those, under capitalism, who *don't have money*, *don't get the distribution*. How fucked-up is *that*? Look at the *real estate vacancies* for any given day -- capitalism yields *overproduction* of *all* commodities, including *housing*, and lets usable stuff just *go to waste*, like empty dwellings, even though people live on the streets and could *use* that housing, all so as to prop-up this exchange-value 'realm', a *social construction* that *despises* actual abundance even though it *produces* abundance.

We need a material economics that aims to fulfill actual organic *human need*, without that 'middleman' realm of 'exchange values'. We don't need it.

We can *plan* it, from 'A' to 'Z'. My model framework lays all this out. You should look at it.

We *don't* need wealth -- we can address all infrastructure, labor, materials, productivity, and consumption in terms of *logistical planning*.


labor credits framework for 'communist supply & demand'

Spoiler: show

https://www.revleft.space/vb/threads/20 ... ost2889338


Components of Social Production

Spoiler: show

---

A communist economic system would be characterized by advanced productive technology that enables material abundance, which in turn would enable the free distribution. WIKI That sounds a lot like wealth.

Okay, fine, cool, whatever -- it's semantics. Call it whatever the fuck you want. At least you get the *concept* of it, which is what matters.

Absolutely yes! That is quite doable right now. However, it would put capitalists out of a job. For example i purchase Turbo Tax to do my taxes. I often wonder why the IRS cannot provide the software disc. The reason they don't is that they don't want to putv Turbo Tax out of business.

Yes, the class divide is 'universal', meaning *global*, or worldwide.

[ckaihatsu]

The following portion was *skipped* in my post to this thread....

A communist economic system would be characterized by advanced productive technology that enables material abundance, which in turn would enable the free distribution. WIKI That sounds a lot like wealth.

Okay, fine, cool, whatever -- it's semantics. Call it whatever the fuck you want. At least you get the *concept* of it, which is what matters.

Absolutely yes! That is quite doable right now. However, it would put capitalists out of a job. For example i purchase Turbo Tax to do my taxes. I often wonder why the IRS cannot provide the software disc. The reason they don't is that they don't want to putv Turbo Tax out of business.

---

[ckaihatsu]

Absolutely yes! That is quite doable right now. However, it would put capitalists out of a job. For example i purchase Turbo Tax to do my taxes. I often wonder why the IRS cannot provide the software disc. The reason they don't is that they don't want to putv Turbo Tax out of business.

---

[ckaihatsu]

Yes, good example. This, too, is capitalism.

Plastic? POD is going to kill you!

Oh -- he must be a Green. We haven't been properly introduced, and he seems a little frosty.

Yeah, Greens are *reformists*, and *not* revolutionaries, though that looks to be changing, as with the conclusions of this thread's cited documentary. Too much green-ness is a political focus on the organic-natural-life side of things, to the detriment of *labor organizing* over whatever industrial processes happen to currently be in place. Once all means of mass industrial production are collectivized, the workers would then have the appropriate control to collectively *shut down* polluting practices, and to implement *better* ones, by the yardstick of planet earth, instead of for whatever garners the most profits. (So there it is again.)

What if I want a better machine? CAn I build it?

Sure, I don't see why not, since there would be absolutely *zero* private property / private claims, in a workers-of-the-world socialism. The priority would be on *overthrowing the bourgeoisie*, but once that's done everyone would be able to coordinate with everyone else, over everything.

You'd probably even / realistically get *volunteers* to coordinate with you over it, once you publicize it. No one could deny you any unclaimed and/or natural resources for it.

Similarly, I thought-up an *artistic*-minded 'thought experiment', which is at my labor credits FAQ:

My favorite illustrative scenario for this -- if you'll entertain it -- is that of a landscape artist in such a post-commodity world.

They make public their artistic endeavor to drape a prominent extended length of cliffs with their creation, and they'll require a custom-made fabric that is enormous and must be made with a blending of precious and rare metals formed as long threads.

Who is to deny them? (Or, how exactly would be this treated, politically?)

https://www.revleft.space/vb/threads/20 ... ost2889338

---

[ckaihatsu]

Wow, you are making sense. I wish the left would find a different angle to help people. However, the lefty leaders and mediamake a ton of money out of poverty and racism.

Yes, it's true -- they would rather be vested in the capitalist system as it is, to make their money and clout, than to address the pressing political issues of *class* and *state*, and to advocate for the system's overthrow. It's quite petty, unfortunately, and sad.

However, it is universal.

Yes, the class divide is 'universal', meaning *global*, or worldwide.

[Julian658]

Climate change is not caused by civilisation. It is caused by industrial use of fossil fuels.

Developing countries will only increase their carbon footprint significantly if they use fossil fuels at an industrial level. That can be avoided by providing non-fossil fuel technology to the developing world.



That is another racist argument: that we should halt migration from cleaner countries because the immigrants will pollute more when they arrive.

Have you noticed that you only care about climate change when it is non-whites who have to pay the price?

POD

You see everything to a racial lens. You are also a cake eater.
You go out of your way saying people in 3rd world countries do not cause climate change. However, you are unable to admit that when 3rd world people migrate to the West they massively increase their carbon footprint.

[Pants-of-dog]

POD

You see everything to a racial lens.

No. It is more like you do not see how racist your arguments are.

That is okay. I can explain it to you.

You are also a cake eater.

I did have carrot cake this morning and lemon cupcakes this evening.

You go out of your way saying people in 3rd world countries do not cause climate change. However, you are unable to admit that when 3rd world people migrate to the West they massively increase their carbon footprint.

Why would I bother discussing a claim you have not supported yet and you just brought up to distract from your previous failed argument?

Now, we have disproved your claim about how people in the developing world need to stop having kids in order to solve climate change.

We discussed your other climate change argument as well: the idea that technological development will solve everything in time. We noted that capitalism, because of the self interest of the capitalist, is doing nothing in this respect. And this is because there is no way to make a profit off it. Instead, capitalism just sells you a product that is slightly less destructive than last year’s model.

This hew anti-immigration argument of yours is not even a proposed solution to climate change. It is just anti-immigrant sentiment disguised as environmental policy.

[Julian658]

OK, they are very poor so one or nine kids will not cause much climate change. Do you support the concept of not providing contraception to the poor? Yes? No? Please answer the question



This may hurt your feelings. But, in the end climate change will be solved by the private sector. ONe day autos will be 99% electric and all homes will have solar panels. That will be the private sector POD. And one day the population will go down as Westerners (of all colors) have low fertility rates).



Yes, what is the point of importing the 3rd world? Can you explain?

[Julian658]

Yes, it's true -- they would rather be vested in the capitalist system as it is, to make their money and clout, than to address the pressing political issues of *class* and *state*, and to advocate for the system's overthrow. It's quite petty, unfortunately, and sad.





Yes, the class divide is 'universal', meaning *global*, or worldwide.

The riots reflect the class divide: The "haves and have nots"-----------the natural hierarchy of talent is brutal. It is not the bourgeoisie versus the proletariat. It is a skin color issue where the oppressed feel a 1000 times more oppressed than during the Jim Crow era. It is racial PTSD and i am deeply worried. Perception is reality and the media and black leaders promote racism 24/7. The nihilism is off the charts. Just checkout some tweets:

Black Glass
@BlackGlass1980
Replying to
@Bakari_Sellers
As I walked into a store an older white man said hello to me as he exited, I had the hardest time parting my mouth. When I did, nothing came out. This is not who I am, but I am angry and tired.

Replying to
@BlackGlass1980
and
@Bakari_Sellers
I feel this. Add being an introvert on top of it. I at least used to be able to fake small talk etc. Now everything is transactional, stone faced, waiting to see if my spidey senses tingle about any encounter w/ a random white person, few as they are now w/ limited outings.



Bubba Bexley
@thembijazz
·
May 27
Replying to
@BlackGlass1980
and
@Bakari_Sellers
I stopped speaking to them, awhile back. I have to know you

Do you honestly think socialism will help them?

[ckaihatsu]

The riots reflect the class divide: The "haves and have nots"-----------

Besides the realities of income inequality and wealth ownership ('class'), I think there's also the factor of *powerlessness*, here in a *highly* technological age where it's either one person or another at a web interface, to direct massive machinery to do massive things.

In other words the *entire world* and all of its operations have been 'deskilled' now, thanks to computer technology, so the *political* question comes to the fore even more starkly, as to *who* should be controlling society's massive productivity, and to what ends.

We objectively *don't* need a power structure anymore -- we need a flat-level mode of socio-political decision-making, like here at PoFo, so that *everyone* can discuss and decide *en masse* what society should be doing, productivity-wise and distribution-wise, *without* the market mechanism.

the natural hierarchy of talent is brutal.

It's not about 'individual talent', because society is now incredibly *socialized*, thanks to the Internet -- it's about *social organization*, preferably without reliance on a mechanical intermediary known as 'the market'.

It is not the bourgeoisie versus the proletariat.

You *just said* it's about *class*. Yes, *of course* it's about the proletariat versus the bourgeoisie.

It is a skin color issue where the oppressed feel a 1000 times more oppressed than during the Jim Crow era. It is racial PTSD and i am deeply worried. Perception is reality and the media and black leaders promote racism 24/7. The nihilism is off the charts. Just checkout some tweets:

These are all *individualistic*, and *impressionistic* -- the actual dynamics that cause these reflections are playing out at *much greater scales*, meaning societally. Here's an analysis from the WSWS:

This expanding movement has been triggered by the brutal murder of George Floyd, but it gives expression to mounting anger over social inequality, poverty, mass unemployment, the destruction of the social safety net, and wars without end. The desperate situation confronting the working class has been intensified by the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic.

While the Trump administration is systematically promoting police violence, the Democrats are implicated in state violence against working people. Police killings continued unabated under the Obama administration, which sided with police on every occasion where cases came before the Supreme Court.

For the past 50 years, the Democrats have specialized in the promotion of racialist politics—the insistence that the fundamental division in American society is between “white America” and “black America.” The politics of race has been used to argue that the solution to social problems, including racism, is to be found in hiring more black police officers and electing more black politicians. However, over these 50 years, the conditions of black workers have deteriorated, social inequality has reached record levels and police violence has intensified. In many cities, including in Minneapolis, police violence is overseen by black police chiefs or black mayors.

The eruption of mass demonstrations of workers and youth of all races triggered by the brutal murder of Floyd has given expression to a tremendous social solidarity, which belies the racial narrative. It is not a question of black against white, but the working class against the rich. This is a tremendous step forward.

The demonstrations mark a new stage in the development of the class struggle.

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/0 ... s-m30.html

---

Do you honestly think socialism will help them?

Yes, I do, because people are too *disempowered* these days -- we need *proportionate*, *mass* control over how society operates, meaning its productivity / social-production, and we definitely don't need a plutocratic, bureaucratic elite running things anymore, because of its ongoing policy of *austerity* in the midst of *plenty*.

Thousands Of Unsold New Cars Are Being Abandoned And Left To Die In Lots. This Is Insane.

Share the post "Thousands Of Unsold New Cars Are Being Abandoned And Left To Die In Lots. This Is Insane."

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This is what the car manufacturers DON’T want you to see. Since overproduction peaked in 2009, thousands of cars have been left in lots to waste away. Many of these photos go back to just post-recession, yet the problem of surplus still exists today!

Shiny, pretty, and new…and rapidly rusting, unused.



This photograph is a lot of surplus cars in Port of Sheerness in Kent, England. There are hundreds of places exactly like this in the world full of cars that automobile manufacturers were unable to sell.

http://www.epicdash.com/thousands-of-un ... is-insane/

[Julian658]

Besides the realities of income inequality and wealth ownership ('class'), I think there's also the factor of *powerlessness*, here in a *highly* technological age where it's either one person or another at a web interface, to direct massive machinery to do massive things.

In other words the *entire world* and all of its operations have been 'deskilled' now, thanks to computer technology, so the *political* question comes to the fore even more starkly, as to *who* should be controlling society's massive productivity, and to what ends.

We objectively *don't* need a power structure anymore -- we need a flat-level mode of socio-political decision-making, like here at PoFo, so that *everyone* can discuss and decide *en masse* what society should be doing, productivity-wise and distribution-wise, *without* the market mechanism.

Multiculturalism, race identity politics, victimhood, etc leads to tribalism and the next step is violence. That is how it works all over the world.
The Democratic Party did great things in the 1960-70s. But, now we are entering a new era. IN the past the hurdles were different such as white only schools, bathrooms, water fountains, neighborhoods, etc. All of those walls have disappeared. Now the hurdles are more esoteric and not clearly delineated. There is a class divide and racial divide and it is a black and white thing. Other ethnicities in the middle seem to be doing just fine. However, the opposite ends of the spectrum do not see eye to eye.

Racism today is much less than 50 years ago, however, the perception of racism is at an alltime high. The young black people in this era feel more oppressed than their grandparents during the Jim Crow era. They are now seeking self segregation and hate everything about America. They are ripe for revolution and all they need is more easy to see palpable oppression like police brutality. The Democrats preach racism as this is their ticket to elected office and economic success.

It's not about 'individual talent', because society is now incredibly *socialized*, thanks to the Internet -- it's about *social organization*, preferably without reliance on a mechanical intermediary known as 'the market'.

I really don't know about that. I suspect I would have done OK in East or West germany if I had lived there. I would find a way to get ahead. The same people that were higher ups in the communist party in East Germany adapted quickly to West Germany after the Berlin wall fell. Some people simply know "How to beat around the bush". Meanwhile low end East Germans with little talent where OK in East germany and the jungle of survival of the fittest in West Germany was not appreciated.

This is a massive problem and it has to do with the natural hierarchy of competence. America has promoted race identity forever and recently multiculturalism. This has lead to tribalism and violence.

You *just said* it's about *class*. Yes, *of course* it's about the proletariat versus the bourgeoisie.

Yeah, nut add skin color and it is more volatile. I suspect that if we ever had a revolution the folks from below would murder millions. That is how it generally plays out. This is much worse than the French or Bolshevik revolution. At least in the latter they were all from the same tribe. If we have a revolution it will be a 100 times more bloody because of the tribal element.

These are all *individualistic*, and *impressionistic* -- the actual dynamics that cause these reflections are playing out at *much greater scales*, meaning societally. Here's an analysis from the WSWS:

Agreed

Yes, I do, because people are too *disempowered* these days -- we need *proportionate*, *mass* control over how society operates, meaning its productivity / social-production, and we definitely don't need a plutocratic, bureaucratic elite running things anymore, because of its ongoing policy of *austerity* in the midst of *plenty*.

Poor blacks reside in cities that have been under the control of the Democratic Party for at least 50 years.

BTW, I work with and know plenty of black people that are a million miles away from all this chaos and have moved to the middle class with no issues. Nevertheless, I do not know how they really think.

[Pants-of-dog]

OK, they are very poor so one or nine kids will not cause much climate change. Do you support the concept of not providing contraception to the poor? Yes? No? Please answer the question

How does this relate to climate change?

This may hurt your feelings. But, in the end climate change will be solved by the private sector. ONe day autos will be 99% electric and all homes will have solar panels. That will be the private sector POD. And one day the population will go down as Westerners (of all colors) have low fertility rates).

No.

You should read Adam Smith.

“It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages.”

Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations [1776]

Since capitalism makes no money off solving climate change, the private sector has no interest in solving this problem.

I have explained this to you at least twice before. I even did it in my last post to you.

Yes, what is the point of importing the 3rd world? Can you explain?

What does this have to do with climate change?