[Fasces]

Pretty sure 300,000 visa-free trips to Ukraine from Russia will be happening soon. Makes me wonder - would Ukraine deport Russian deserters, or would they be eligible to apply for refugee status in EU given that Putin just passed that insane 10 year gulag law for desertion?

Also sad to see those same Western oligarchs are still willing to take Russian visa money, whatever they may say publicly.

[Fasces]

Arson of military registration and enlistment offices in Russia (blue before mobilization/red after)

[Rancid]

just think they're mad

Who is "they" in this thread?

[Fasces]

Who is "they" in this thread?

Folks on my Twitter feed from US military media and congressmen's office saying Iran is bad for selling the Shahed-136 to Russia.

[Unthinking Majority]

French and American guns have found themselves used in similar conflicts over the past half-century, and to this day German, American, and French equipment is regularly used in the pacification and conquest of Palestine. I'm happy to call Iran a rogue regime by this standard, as long as we do the same to all merchants of death.

Honestly, I just think they're mad that Iran has enough of a drone industry to be a competitor for those sweet sweet petrodollars. That's money that should be in their pockets, damn it!

The US, Israel, Iran, Russia, China etc are all rogue states. They don't conform to international law. The UN regime is a total joke. The minute Russia invaded Ukraine UN collective security should have snapped into place. Nobody should have a veto. Westphalian sovereignty shouldn't be up for a vote.

[Rancid]

Arson of military registration and enlistment offices in Russia (blue before mobilization/red after)

I see about 17 after, and about 37 before.

17/35 = .45 (x100 means 45%). So nearly half the arson happened after one week of mobilization, versus 7 months prior.

Anyway, so why do you support Russian imperialism (as evidenced by your what aboutism)?

[Fasces]

I don't.

[Rancid]

uh huh.

There's a lot of round about coming from you. Clearly, you are trying to say something without saying it. Not just say it?

[Rich]

@Independent_Srpska I got news for you there doorknob. The Russian speaking folks in the East of Ukraine don't want any sort of so called "protection" that Russia has to offer. As a matter of fact, a lot of them hate Russia after being being bombed and killed by Russian forces themselves. Yes sirree, Russia has burnt that bridge with anybody in the East of Ukraine who might have been "pro Russian." But even before the war, most of those Russian speakers regarded themselves as Ukrainian. Stop spewing this bullshit that the conflict is about language or some sort of "ethnicity." That's just Russian state propaganda.

You've got news have you? And what exactly are your sources for this definitive information, that the rest of us of us don't have access to. I would suggest that the reality is that it was very difficult to get an accurate view of the views of the Russian speaking populations. I would also that localised maps of majority language speakers give a biased view towards Ukrainian, in the same way that maps of Republican and Democrat support in America give a bias towards the Republicans as Democratic voters tend to be concentrated in urban areas.

Now the more relevant question might be, what does the population of the eastern Russian occupied areas want now. Even if they didn't want to be invaded, they may not want another war campaign through their areas to reestablish Ukrainian control. The truth is that in war a lot of people's wishes get trampled on by both sides. Even people who are categorised as innocent. Did the people of Rotterdam for example consent to having their city bombed by the allies in World War II. In one bombing hundreds of people were killed. it wasn't till the nineteen nineteen nineties that it was considered safe enough to allow Rotterdam children to be taught about this.

What should the Ukrainian and their western backers war goal priorities be? Now I know many people think that a harsher version of the Versailles treaty should be the ideal, perhaps something like the peace deal imposed on Iraq in 1991. Personally I think the capture of natural resources should be the priority, which actually coincides well with the recapture of all 2014 Ukrainian territory. So the wishes of the local populations should be disregarded, because we can be pretty certain that the large majority of Crimeans do not wish to be annexed by Ukraine.

[Fasces]

uh huh.

There's a lot of round about coming from you. Clearly, you are trying to say something without saying it. Not just say it?

Countries' territorial sovereignty should not be violated.

Free and fair referendums cannot be conducted in these territories under the current situation and are not legitimate.

NATO should not expand.

Putin's a filthy kleptocrat.

[Rich]

Westphalian sovereignty shouldn't be up for a vote.

Westphalian sovereignty, what a joke. Have the people who claim to believe in Westphalian sovereignty actually checked the map, None of the seriously disputed territories, I think at this point we can assume that Kiev is not going to become part of Russia again, were covered by the treaty of Westpahalia, but Kharkov was an accepted part of Russia. As for Kherson, Mariupol, Crimea and Donetsk, how anyone can think that the map of 1648 gives legitimacy to Ukrainian sovereignty is completely beyond me. When the Imperator Barack Hussein Obama, declared Kosovo independent, we hoped that finally western, leaders would stop spouting this drivel about caring about Westphalian sovereignty.

[JohnRawls]

@Independent_Srpska @Igor Antunov

[XogGyux]

In other news. Russia is applying to NATO in an effort to defend itself from an ever more bellicose Putin.

[Rugoz]

French and American guns have found themselves used in similar conflicts over the past half-century, and to this day German, American, and French equipment is regularly used in the pacification and conquest of Palestine. I'm happy to call Iran a rogue regime by this standard, as long as we do the same to all merchants of death.

There's a difference between "have found themselves used" and directly supplying weapons for the use in such a conflict. As for Palestine. It's somewhat comparable in the sense that Israel has annexed territory, but Israel was attacked by its Arab neighbors multiple times and they still call for its destruction. Ukraine has never attacked Russia.

Honestly, I just think they're mad that Iran has enough of a drone industry to be a competitor for those sweet sweet petrodollars. That's money that should be in their pockets, damn it!

Yeah I bet that's the reason.

If anything it's a competition for Russia, since Western weapons generally don't compete in the same price class.

NATO should not expand.

What a nonsensical conclusion to draw from this conflict. NATO should absolutely expand when this war is over, unless there's some fundamental political change in Moscow. Moreover, China should establish its own security alliance in Central Asia to protect those countries from Russian incursions.

[Rich]

As for Palestine. It's somewhat comparable in the sense that Israel has annexed territory, but Israel was attacked by its Arab neighbors multiple times and they still call for its destruction.

Oh come on you're talking as if the UN partition plan was somehow fair. I mean when Zionist Jews read the plan they must have had difficulty not to collapse with laughter. How in God's name can anyone say that the land captured by the Zionists in 1948 and ethnically cleansed through the use of terror, belongs to Israel by absolute right but the territories captured from 1967 are not.

For me these absurd moral contortions can be avoided if one abandons absolute moralistic pretensions. In the context of the struggle with the Communists, we had to give preference to powerful developed and often more progressive and liberal Zionist Jews over less developed, less powerful authoritarian Arabs. Joseph Stalin made the same calculation in his support for the Zionist militarist expansionism. Similarly post cold war in our struggle against the Muslims, a struggle that so many people want to pretend is not happening, it is right to back Israel against the Muslim Palestinians.

Ukraine has never attacked Russia.

Crimeans never wanted to become part of Ukraine. The Ukrainians crushed Crimean autonomy against the pretty clear wishes of the Crimean people. Now I know a lot of Liberals say that Kruschev was the legitimate sovereign ruler of Crimea and therefore had the divine right to assign Crimea to what ever Soviet Republic he wanted, but I disagree.

However if the Ukrainians are able to continue their recent advances then I would support Ukraine taking Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk as war booty and compensation. Both sides have been violent abusive, nationalist aggressors, but to my mind Russia under Putin's leadership i the significantly greater evil.

[wat0n]

Ukraine got Crimea as a "gift" from the USSR, I would not say it's fair to blame them for that.

[Rugoz]

:lol: Oh come on you're talking as if the UN partition plan was somehow fair. I mean when Zionist Jews read the plan they must have had difficulty not to collapse with laughter. How in God's name can anyone say that the land captured by the Zionists in 1948 and ethnically cleansed through the use of terror, belongs to Israel by absolute right but the territories captured from 1967 are not.

How is your perception of fairness even relevant? We're talking about international law. The plan was adopted by the UN general assembly.

Crimeans never wanted to become part of Ukraine. The Ukrainians crushed Crimean autonomy against the pretty clear wishes of the Crimean people. Now I know a lot of Liberals say that Kruschev was the legitimate sovereign ruler of Crimea and therefore had the divine right to assign Crimea to what ever Soviet Republic he wanted, but I disagree.

Crimea is legally a part of Ukraine. It can crush "Crimean autonomy" (not sure what you mean by that) as much as it likes.

[Drlee]

I see about 17 after, and about 37 before.

17/35 = .45 (x100 means 45%). So nearly half the arson happened after one week of mobilization, versus 7 months prior.

Anyway, so why do you support Russian imperialism (as evidenced by your what aboutism)?

Way to go Rancid. Post of the week.

[Independent_Srpska]

@Independent_Srpska You want to talk about fanboy? You are the biggest fanboy ever.
Even if for the sake of the argument we were to look things from the shoes of russia and assume they are the good guys, even if we were stretching the imagination THAT FAR, you still come short of many if not all of your arguments.

They are not the good guys.
But Kiev regime is not the good guys either.

All facts.

Lets assume Russia are the good guys, they are the liberators. It still does not change the fact that most of the world is against this war.

They are not the good guys.
They are liberators for the Russian speaking people.
The whole world is against this war including Russia and Ukraine.

All facts.

It does not change the fact that the image of russia as a powerful military entity has been diminished. That is a indisputable fact, even if we were to assume that russia is indeed right.

Well, that's good for the western world.

Russia is right for stopping harassment of Donbass.
Russia is wrong for going beyond that point.

Now... does calling up for the opposition of the world, and showing off that you are weaker than previously thought, does that project strength? Is that a good thing for the Russian people? to be seen as aggressors? to be seen as weaker? This was has put the average russian ever closer to danger than any time before.

(*) If all that stops attacks on people in Donbass or burning down people in Odesa , and it does - of course it is worth it.

Does mobilising 300k, a million russians, to basically be killed, makes the russian federation stronger? And they WILL be killed, because the professional army with plenty of supply of tanks, artillery, supplies failed big time, do you think that sending 300k carpenters, mechanics, taxist, pilots, dancers, teachers, photographers is what is really going to turn the tide of the war?

Does banning language of your citizens make Ukraine happier place for living?
Does turning your fellow countrymen in a minority after centuries of equality make Ukraine stronger?
Does burning down your fellow countrymen en masse contribute to progress?
Does killing Russian speaking people in Donbass improve position of Kiev government?
Does forcing millions of people from Donbass to flee to Russia mean a call for tolerance?
Does sending military units with Nazi insignia onto biggest victims of Nazism contribute to peaceful coexistence?

What's your point?

Now... Putin might be able to deceive the population staying in russia about whats going on, but those soldiers will know that they did not get deployed to protect russia because they will be deployed to attack another country, those soldiers will know that they did not receive weeks of training because they will be sent after days, those soldiers will know exactly the quality and quantity of the armament that they are being provided.

But, isn't that good for you, the Russophobes and Fanboys?
You'll be able to eradicate Russian speaking people from Ukraine and to defeat Russia.
Your all dreams will come true.

Those young people are going to die, and 300k families will lose their loved ones. Putin only has 1 card left for escalation and that is nuclear war. Do you think nuclear war makes the russian people safer? You would have to be the biggest moron on earth to believe that.

And all it could have taken was - stop killing Russian people in Ukraine.
Kiev had eight long years and two Minsk agreements to suppress your inner urge for blood, yet they failed.
So, what now - you are persistent to continue killing civilians in Donbass, and occasionally burning them down even under the threat of being nuked ?
What are you?! A moron?

No, you are the fanboy. Even if we put your very crooked lenses of reality and assume russia is the good guy here... even if we do that, we still are left with the fact that they are lying constantly about everything. Now, just use your brain for once in your life... if they are lying about how well the war is going, about how many people they are recruiting, about how well supplied their army is, etc... how can you possibly ignore the possibility that they are also lying about liberating ukraine from nazis and/or protecting russians in ukraine. It is ofcourse... all bullshit. Russia is doing what all shit dictatorships do... lie, force their population to fight for their mighty powerful wanna-be king dictator, and repress the population.

Dude they convinced you that it was cool murdering people because they speak banned Russian language , they brainwashed you so deep that you see nothing bad in torching down 40 people in Odesa - dude, you are brain dead.
They convinced you that all this above is normal, but reaction to that is not normal.

You are bitching at people who refuse to accept that burning down people is a normal way of behaviour in a society.

You are the fanboy. A very pathetic one at that.

Nope, mate....you are , and a brain-dead one.

[Independent_Srpska]

@Independent_Srpska @Igor Antunov

Yes. Nothing more logical than that.
It's an international law.

If only the USA did stick to the international law for the last 30 years - we wouldn't be nowadays in global energy crisis and heading towards the major military conflict.