[noemon]

I think this is exactly the problem with European Immigration

You think that a Greek student coming to study in the UK, getting married to a British woman and having children with dual nationality is a problem?

Why would I want to be British?

[Soulflytribe]

the "problem" is probably more east Europeans who can move freely to France within the EU.
It's something France wanted and signed for.

Exactly. If France really doesn't want european immigrants in its soil, it should never had accepted being part of the EU.
And it's funny that Sarko doesn't condemn french emigrants working across Europe. I remember reading that poor french young people go work in Ireland en masse every year.

[Plaro]

You think that a Greek student coming to study in the UK, getting married to a British woman and having children with dual nationality is a problem?

Isn't your wife Persian?

Why would I want to be British?

Because you live in Britain? Otherwise you are pretty much a colonist.

Exactly. If France really doesn't want european immigrants in its soil, it should never had accepted being part of the EU.

EU policy can and should change on immigration. Besides France tried it, does not like it, so things will change.

[noemon]

Isn't your wife Persian?

Her father is, her mother is English, her father never married her mother and left for Iran when she was 3(she saw him again when she was 20), she was born in England and largely feels English.

Because you live in Britain? Otherwise you are pretty much a colonist.

Yeah, you see all those international students that spend their money in british uni's, darn colonists.

And no, I dwell in England, and I also dwell in Greece. I live in Europe.

[Plaro]

Her father is, her mother is English, she has not seen her Persian father since she was 3, she was born in England and largely feels English.

So some shuk comes from a different nation/country impregnates a native and then leaves, this is why immigration policy has to change.

Yeah, you see all those international students that spend their money in british uni's, darn colonists.

And no, I dwell in England, and I also dwell in Greece. I live in Europe.

So are you British or Greek?

lol, Yes indeed by definition you are a Greek colonist.

[noemon]

Like Prince Phillip man. He came he conquered and he now refuses to die the old bugger.

He also has some semblance to the Sith lord.

But yeah the Greek colony of Cambridge is the strongest ethnic-community in Cambridgeshire.

[Plaro]

^
I do not know does he consider himself part of one of the nationalities existent in Britain? Or Greek?

[noemon]

As I said earlier Prince Phillip asked the Queen in marriage in 1946 and abandoned his Greek nationality and religion right before the ceremony in 1947. All the while serving in WW2 in the Royal Navy as an officer and a Greek national.

His son is now preparing to turn the UK into a Greek-Orthodox country:

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/royal ... -5261.html
http://orthodoxengland.org.uk/hrh.htm
http://orthodoxbeacon.com/headlines/pri ... unt-athos/

Beware of Greeks bearing your Queens!!

[Plaro]

'The Church of England's absolutely pathetic attitude drives him mad - trying to be everything to everybody, and in the end standing for nothing'. It is asserted that Charles fell in love with Orthodox Christianity when he first visited the Holy Mountain of Athos with its two thousand Orthodox monks of all nationalities in 1996.

Amen, just like with it immigration policy, letting people like noemon travel freely. Instead of being tied to the land in sweat and toil, praying to the Queen and only understanding the English tongue. Knowing, that he will happily give his life in glory, for mother England.

[GandalfTheGrey]

I think this is exactly the problem with European Immigration. I don't see the new immigrants considering themselves as members of the host nation.

There is no evidence for this. In fact studies and surveys done at least in Britain suggest the exact opposite.

The problem is the attitude held by white natives, not the immigrants. Its this obsolete and racist view that seems to be prevalent in western Europe that states that no matter what immigrants do, they can never hope to be "true" members of the host nation (whatever that means). I've debated with people on this forum who proudly argue that skin colour and religioun automatically determines your "Britishness" or "Frenchness" or "Dutchness" etc. So of course with this mindset, it makes no difference what the immigrants themselves consider themselves as belonging to.

Thankfully, such primitive views have largely been eliminated in Australia.

[Pants-of-dog]

I find that Europeans tend to have a more static view of culture that interferes with their ability to appreciate cultural change brought about by new ideas.

[Plaro]

The problem is the attitude held by white natives, not the immigrants.

Yea yea, blame the white natives, you racist bigot.

I find that Europeans tend to have a more static view of culture that interferes with their ability to appreciate cultural change brought about by new ideas.

Europeans appreciate cultural change, it had happened in Europe and continue to happen. What they do not appreciate is when other culture groups arrive unmasse to their homeland.

[septimine]

I don't include students as immigrants. My point is that if a person settles permenantly in a country, they ought to consider themselves part of that country, rather than retaining loyalty to the "homeland". My ancestors came to America from all over the place -- Germany, Denmark, Poland, Ireland, Scottland, etc. But they became Americans in spirit when they moved to America. They didn't consider themselves Poles and Scots, they became Americans and wanted to become Americans. To me, the trouble with European ideas of immigration is not numbers, but the fact that those who move to a European nation with the idea of living there fail to adopt the country in question. If you want to move to Britain, live in Britain, and raise your kids in Britain, you are British, not Greek. I don't think that it means leaving your ancestry at the door, simply that you're loyal to the nation you adopted as your own. I don't see much of a problem with that.

The other approach is that as I said before, you keep your loyalty to Greece while your neighbors remain loyal to Germany or Turkey or Iran or Japan, and eventually, the idea of Britain is not enough to keep the ethnic enclaves from tearing the nation apart. It happens all the time.

[noemon]

You are comparing apples to oranges and eras long gone and dead. I spend my time between Greece and the UK, I live in both places and neither, a lot of Europeans travel, work, dwell all over Europe. A lot of people no longer "live" in one country but across many countries.

Europe is our country now and its member countries, merely city-states.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

^ This might be true for yourself, but it's not a common, much less mainstream position in Europe.

Personally, I know nobody who considers Europe to be their 'country' and European identity remains secondary and weak if surveys are to be believed. I suppose it depends on what we consider to be 'a lot of people' but the total number of people that would fit your description is probably < 2% of all Europeans.

[Canis_Lupus]

He's been politically correct. Foreigners is just a code name for ...? It actually worked, his ratings improved. First time since the campaign started he is in front. A littlle bugger.
Anyway that man is probably one of the most immoral presidents France has ever had. Shorty will do anything to stay in power. He has the full backing from Langley. Family connections.

Nicolas Sarkozy 'received £42 million from Muammar Gaddafi for 2007 election'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ction.html

“Sarkozy must first give back the money he took from Libya to finance his electoral campaign. We funded it. We have all the details and are ready to reveal everything,” said Saif-al Islam, currently held in Libya following the overthrow of his father’s regime.

“The first thing we want this clown to do is to give the money back to the Libyan people. He was given the assistance so he could help them, but he has disappMr Sarkozy on Monday night angrily denied the allegations he had received money from Gaddafi. “If he (Gaddafi) had financed it, then I haven’t been very grateful,” Mr Sarkozy said. “Gaddafi, who is known for talking nonsense, even said that there were cheques. Well then the son should just go ahead and produce them then.” ointed us. Give us back our money.”

Mr Sarkozy on Monday night angrily denied the allegations he had received money from Gaddafi. “If he (Gaddafi) had financed it, then I haven’t been very grateful,” Mr Sarkozy said. “Gaddafi, who is known for talking nonsense, even said that there were cheques. Well then the son should just go ahead and produce them then.”

[Soulflytribe]

^ This might be true for yourself, but it's not a common, much less mainstream position in Europe.

Personally, I know nobody who considers Europe to be their 'country' and European identity remains secondary and weak if surveys are to be believed. I suppose it depends on what we consider to be 'a lot of people' but the total number of people that would fit your description is probably < 2% of all Europeans.

And does it really matter if this is or not a mainstream position in Europe? Who cares if less than 2% of europeans think this way or not?

Things are the way they are. The EU rules, agreements and treaties are the way they are, thus borders and passports don't matter anymore inside modern Europe.
If countries are worried with immigration from within Europe and their borders, they will have to change all EU structure or leave the bloc, in other words: it won't happen.
The newer generations won't care very much for all this integration, but old folks will die saying things like: "In the good old times we didn't have those tons of british people living here in Algarve (south of Portugal), it used to be so much better!" (I actually heard a person saying this shit)

[Kaiserschmarrn]

And does it really matter if this is or not a mainstream position in Europe? Who cares if less than 2% of europeans think this way or not?

I suppose it depends on your perspective whether you think the population's opinion matters or not.

Personally, I think that if the EU is to be a long-term success it needs a strong European identity. Otherwise it will eventually fail.

Things are the way they are. The EU rules, agreements and treaties are the way they are, thus borders and passports don't matter anymore inside modern Europe. If countries are worried with immigration from within Europe and their borders, they will have to change all EU structure or leave the bloc, in other words: it won't happen.

The newer generations won't care very much for all this integration, but old folks will die saying things like: "In the good old times we didn't have those tons of british people living here in Algarve (south of Portugal), it used to be so much better!" (I actually heard a person saying this shit)

You are conflating two different issues here:
a) Free movement within the EU.
b) Expecting immigrants to integrate.

Many people are perfectly ok with a) as long as b) happens.

I'm under the impression that the discussion was about whether b) is reasonable in an EU context. If so, then people's expectations and opinions are obviously relevant, since they will strongly influence the relationships and interactions of the host population and immigrants. As far as I know, younger and older generations do generally agree on b).

Finally, if there existed a strong European identity then b) would be almost a non-issue which is another reason why people's opinions matter.

[noemon]

Personally, I know nobody who considers Europe to be their 'country' and European identity remains secondary and weak if surveys are to be believed. I suppose it depends on what we consider to be 'a lot of people' but the total number of people that would fit your description is probably < 2% of all Europeans.

You are using this, identity which indeed remains strong to reach to this conclusion:

This might be true for yourself, but it's not a common, much less mainstream position in Europe.

Which also covers the issue of travel and work in the EU.

There is no doubt that regional/national identity remains strong in Europe, but there is also no doubt that my circumstances(of living across countries) are shared by a much larger numbers of Europeans.
My GP in the UK is German and my dentist Italian.

Many people are perfectly ok with a) as long as b) happens.

You are the one conflating these issues, nobody expects from the British in Spain, Italy and Greece to assimilate and turn themselves into something they are not, and nobody expects from me or the thousands of Greeks in Britain to assimilate and become British. People, policy-makers and governments expect assimilation from immigrants, not intra-European citizens into some other "nationality", maybe except for some idiotic nationalists who are confused and sad.

[Soulflytribe]

If so, then people's expectations and opinions are obviously relevant, since they will strongly influence the relationships and interactions of the host population and immigrants. As far as I know, younger and older generations do generally agree on b).

Finally, if there existed a strong European identity then b) would be almost a non-issue which is another reason why people's opinions matter.

Ok, so what can these european populaces' opinions do?
From my perspective, all these "nationalists"(if we can call them this way) can do is complain about this issue in internet forums like this one. Their countries won't change EU agreements or leave the bloc. You said it well when you wrote:

If so, then people's expectations and opinions are obviously relevant, since they will strongly influence the relationships and interactions of the host population and immigrants.

Ok, but how can that be relevant if they will only influence the relationships and interactions of the host population and immigrants and nothing besides this? If a person from Eastern Europe is living in a country where people don't like him because he is a foreigner, what can the local people do to him? Treat him badly? Being hostile towards him? What else?

I can give you an example of what I am talking about. My family have a house in Portugal that we go once, twice a year for vacations, there is a woman from Cape Verde who cleans the house when we are there. One day she was telling us that she suffers a lot of prejudice there because she is black, and we asked her: "But why don't you return to your country? Even your sons are there! It must be so sad to stay here alone!" She answered: "No way, there was hell, I couldn't even eat properly, working here I can send money to my family and some day I want to bring them to live here!"

You see? That's the pattern of thinking immigrants have, it won't be a little hostility that will change things...

You are the one conflating these issues, nobody expects from the British in Spain, Italy and Greece to assimilate and turn themselves into something they are not, and nobody expects from me or the thousands of Greeks in Britain to assimilate and become British. People, policy-makers and governments expect assimilation from immigrants, not intra-European citizens into some other "nationality", maybe except for some idiotic nationalists who are confused and sad.

LOL. Why the hell the thousands and thousands of british people living in the South of Portugal would want to "assimilate" to the portuguese culture? Only people who had never left their hometown can say things like that.