[annatar1914]

@Hindsite

I did not say the Jews were blinded to God. I said they were blinded by God,

A distinction without a difference, weasel words, because ''blinded'' is ''blinded'', not understanding God while having the Scriptures of God is spiritual blindness, and these sorts of people do not come to possess eternal life.

and it was only temporarily, in part, so I, as a gentile, could come to accept Christ as my savior.

''temporarily'' is going on over 20 centuries now, that's a lot of saved Gentiles and unsaved Jews.

The Jews were blinded to Jesus (Yahshua) as their messiah

And still are, they think His Mother was a whore and He was a Sorcerer who has deceived everybody, admit that they do, Hindsite, it's not like they wouldn't admit it to you. They hate Him, and us.

, but never to God's moral law of the Ten Commandments, even if they could not keep them anymore that the rest of us could not keep them.

You do know that the majority of ''Jews'' in the world today don't even believe in God or the Ten Commandments, right? So why would they even bother trying to keep them?

[Hindsite]

@Hindsite
A distinction without a difference, weasel words, because ''blinded'' is ''blinded'', not understanding God while having the Scriptures of God is spiritual blindness, and these sorts of people do not come to possess eternal life.

''temporarily'' is going on over 20 centuries now, that's a lot of saved Gentiles and unsaved Jews.

And still are, they think His Mother was a whore and He was a Sorcerer who has deceived everybody, admit that they do, Hindsite, it's not like they wouldn't admit it to you. They hate Him, and us.

You do know that the majority of ''Jews'' in the world today don't even believe in God or the Ten Commandments, right? So why would they even bother trying to keep them?

I accept the words of the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Romans on this matter. The following is the way he explained it:

I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but [e]those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
And a stumbling block and a retribution to them.
“Let their eyes be darkened to see not,
And bend their backs forever.”

I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
“This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

(Romans 11:1-32 NASB)

Another explanation about the above verses.

Five Reasons I Believe Romans 11:26 Means a Future Conversion for Israel

https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/fi ... for-israel

Praise the Lord.

[annatar1914]

@Hindsite ,

So you didn't actually answer anything I said, but went on to talk about a theoretical future conversion of the Jews to Christianity....

But here's some points to think about, if you dare;

1. Does a posited future conversion to Christ in the future, at least years but possibly decades or even centuries from now excuse evil and reprehensible acts committed by these human beings today?

Apparently to you and others, it does, considering your unthinking and unquestionable support for Israel.

2. Does this theoretical future conversion of the Jews to Christianity mean that A. certain Jews, B. biological ancestors of the Israelites, C. or all who claim to be Jews are the ones to be converted to Christ?

3. ''Future conversion'' means at the very least; ''after Saint Paul wrote the Letter to the Romans'', and then any time after that. It may well have already happened, the mass conversion of the majority of the World's Jews. Rodney Stark writes that over 10% of the population of the Roman Empire was Jewish in the Time of Christ, and ably makes the case that most of them supplied the first wave of converts to the Christian Faith in it's first three centuries.

So those Jews within Judaism now could be, with some exceptions, of the smaller minority of Jews group hardened against Christ and Christianity, who will not ever convert to It. A group whose own Rabbis universally once said it was an Abomination to try to force God's hand and try to end their Exile, their ''Galut'', by force of arms.

And as i've said before, many are hardened Atheists. And there are a greater percentage of biological Jews among the Palestinians, the Christians but also Muslims, than among the population of World Jewry. The Muslims may well be the ones to convert if the prophesy has a further future fulfillment, not the Jews of Judaism...

I wish, I pray, that you will do some hard thinking about this. Because you may find yourself fighting God and the People of God, His Church. The Jews don't want and hate Christ and His Church, and you are with them in spirit, unfortunately.

[Hindsite]

@Hindsite ,
I wish, I pray, that you will do some hard thinking about this. Because you may find yourself fighting God and the People of God, His Church. The Jews don't want and hate Christ and His Church, and you are with them in spirit, unfortunately.

You have been propagandized by some of these crazy false teachers that claim Jewish Zionist mystics and Christian evangelists are in league with Satan to worship Jews as a superior race. They call these Christians by the name "Christian Zionist" in a derogatory way simply because they support the state of Israel over the Palestinian Muslim terrorists. They claim the Israeli people are the terrorists, which is a lie.

[colliric]

You have been propagandized by some of these crazy false teachers that claim Jewish Zionist mystics and Christian evangelists are in league with Satan to worship Jews as a superior race.

No one is claiming that. Where did you pull that crap from? Not even Pastor Steven Anderson says that crap, and he's one of the most anti-zionist pastors.

They call these Christians by the name "Christian Zionist" in a derogatory way simply because they support the state of Israel over the Palestinian Muslim terrorists.

Nope. Partly the term is applied in a derogatory way because it is implying the person is putting Israel ahead of Christ himself and ahead of their own countrymen. It is used to accuse the person of not being a Patriot and having an alligence to a foreign government.... Which you do Hindsite.

I mean you probably want to send young American soldiers to die defending Israel...

They claim the Israeli people are the terrorists, which is a lie.

No they don't. They claim the Israeli Army are legally sanctioned terrorists(and they are). Not necessarily the Israeli citizens.

[Hindsite]

No one is claiming that. Where did you pull that crap from? Not even Pastor Steven Anderson says that crap, and he's one of the most anti-zionist pastors.

Chuck Baldwin is one of them. There are also Anti-Zionist Jews. The Iranian army has been declared as a terrorist organization.

U.S. Labels Iran's Revolutionary Guard As A Foreign Terrorist Organization

The Trump administration is designating Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a foreign terrorist organization, taking an unprecedented step as it seems to increase pressure on Iran's regime.

Iranian lawmakers have prepared legislation that would label part of the U.S. military as a terrorist group, according to Iran's state-run IRNA news agency.

With the U.S. designation, anyone who deals with the Revolutionary Guard could run the risk of facing criminal charges, such as aiding or supporting a terrorist group.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/08/71098739 ... ganization

[annatar1914]

You have been propagandized by some of these crazy false teachers that claim Jewish Zionist mystics and Christian evangelists are in league with Satan to worship Jews as a superior race. They call these Christians by the name "Christian Zionist" in a derogatory way simply because they support the state of Israel over the Palestinian Muslim terrorists. They claim the Israeli people are the terrorists, which is a lie.

Absolutely nothing you said addresses or rebuts what I wrote, I haven't been ''propagandized'' by anyone.... Show me exactly where I am wrong if you can, point by point from what I said to you directly.

And no, you don't really worship Israel or the Jews, you worship yourself and your desire to avoid death by being beamed up in the Rapture, another false and delusional novelty from the 1800's fringes of belief. You depend on Israel and the Jews to provide prophetic signs that your death cult is right, otherwise you have no real use for them.

[Hindsite]

Absolutely nothing you said addresses or rebuts what I wrote, I haven't been ''propagandized'' by anyone.... Show me exactly where I am wrong if you can, point by point from what I said to you directly.

And no, you don't really worship Israel or the Jews, you worship yourself and your desire to avoid death by being beamed up in the Rapture, another false and delusional novelty from the 1800's fringes of belief. You depend on Israel and the Jews to provide prophetic signs that your death cult is right, otherwise you have no real use for them.

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
(1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB)

It is in the Holy Bible, so what is wrong with looking forward to being with the Lord when he returns in glory.

[annatar1914]

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
(1 Thessalonians 4:17 NASB)

It is in the Holy Bible, so what is wrong with looking forward to being with the Lord when he returns in glory.

That quote is in the Bible, the false doctrine of the ''Rapture'', anti-Christian and Unbiblical, is not.

You can by all means be looking forwards to being with the Lord, but it then would behoove you to not do or think evil against your fellow men, take up the doctrines of devils, and support those doctrines in the hopes that the predicted abominations and slaughters bring you that much closer to being with Him. That is the very height of wicked insanity, that kind of ''thinking''.

So, supporting an Antichristian nation state that hates Christ and Christianity, in the hope that they trigger apocalyptic signs and destruction, surely you do know in your heart that that is evil, right? Well, that's about as foul hearted and selfish as a person can get in my book...

But then, the Boomer generation in America, the Evangelical wing of it anyway, always has been the most selfish generation of self-absorbed idiots in human history. And these End-Times doctrines they hold to are strictly a product of the ''Me Generation'' . They want to cheat death, so they support Israel, so that according to a timetable they will be taken up by Christ and avoid any further hardship in this life... That's psychotic and twisted.

[Hindsite]

That quote is in the Bible, the false doctrine of the ''Rapture'', anti-Christian and Unbiblical, is not.

"Rapture" is from the Latin meaning to be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So it is in the Holy Bible.

You can by all means be looking forwards to being with the Lord, but it then would behoove you to not do or think evil against your fellow men, take up the doctrines of devils, and support those doctrines in the hopes that the predicted abominations and slaughters bring you that much closer to being with Him. That is the very height of wicked insanity, that kind of ''thinking''.

I am not thinking evil against my fellow man, that appears to be in your imagination.

So, supporting an Antichristian nation state that hates Christ and Christianity, in the hope that they trigger apocalyptic signs and destruction, surely you do know in your heart that that is evil, right? Well, that's about as foul hearted and selfish as a person can get in my book...

Again, in your distorted imagination.

But then, the Boomer generation in America, the Evangelical wing of it anyway, always has been the most selfish generation of self-absorbed idiots in human history. And these End-Times doctrines they hold to are strictly a product of the ''Me Generation'' . They want to cheat death, so they support Israel, so that according to a timetable they will be taken up by Christ and avoid any further hardship in this life... That's psychotic and twisted.

I don't see anything psychotic and twisted about wishing to be taken up by Christ to avoid further harm from the evils of this world.
Praise to the Lord.

[colliric]

"Rapture" is from the Latin meaning to be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. So it is in the Holy Bible.

Actually it's a Latin word meaning all of Captured, Abducted, Carried Off, Kidnapped, Seized and also Raped. Once again it's biblical use is clearly referring to the Jews being sold back into slavery(and the women being raped) by the Roman Army in 70AD, and in the case of Thessalonians, the Christians being "caught up"(Greek original: Harpazo) and saved from this Roman onslaught.

You are fantasizing that it doesn't mean Raped.

In Latin it has strongly negative connotations.

The NT was originally written in Greek and that verse uses the Greek word. Harpazo was the original word. That also means Seized.... But you choose to use the non-biblical Latin word also meaning Raped.

[Hindsite]

Actually it's a Latin word meaning all of Captured, Abducted, Carried Off, Kidnapped, Seized and also Raped. Once again it's biblical use is clearly referring to the Jews being sold back into slavery(and the women being raped) by the Roman Army in 70AD, and in the case of Thessalonians, the Christians being "caught up"(Greek original: Harpazo) and saved from this Roman onslaught.

You are fantasizing that it doesn't mean Raped.

In Latin it has strongly negative connotations.

The NT was originally written in Greek and that verse uses the Greek word. Harpazo was the original word. That also means Seized.... But you choose to use the non-biblical Latin word also meaning Raped.

"Rapture" Defined

The word "rapture" was first used by Jerome in his Fourth Century Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible. The word comes from the Latin verb raptare, the root of which is rapto - meaning to seize and carry off, or snatch. This Latin word was transliterated into English as "rapture", just as the Greek word baptizo is transliterated into English as "baptize." In Greek the word is harpazo, meaning to be caught up, or to be snatched up. In the Old Testament the Hebrew words laqach and nacah are used. According to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance they have the meaning of lifting up, or taking or carrying away.

Although the word "rapture" is not found in most Bible translations today, it has become the generic term for the event described by Paul in First Thessalonians 4:17, "After (the dead in Christ are risen) we who are still alive and are left will be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

The concept of a person, usually a prophet, being lifted up by the Spirit of God and carried away is found several times in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

http://luke810.com/rapt1.htm

[colliric]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance ignores the objective historical fact that "rapto" is also the Latin source of the English word Rape and also in Latin means to illegally sexually assault a person and/or to illegal detain(Kidnap or illegally arrest) a person as well.

It delibrately ignores this fact because of it's negative connotations.

Your latin word for Rapture also means Rape in English.

[Hindsite]

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance ignores the objective historical fact that "rapto" is also the Latin source of the English word Rape and also in Latin means to illegally sexually assault a person and/or to illegal detain(Kidnap or illegally arrest) a person as well.

It delibrately ignores this fact because of it's negative connotations.

Your latin word for Rapture also means Rape in English.

Words often have different meanings, but in this case it means "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air.

[Ter]

All these theological and etymological discussions are mighty interesting but in the meantime Israel is killing the resistance fighters in the open air concentration camp that is called Gaza to maintain their ethnocentric Apartheid State by using State Terrorism and committing genocide and ethnic cleansing !
(@skinster did I get all of that right?)

[colliric]

All these theological and etymological discussions are mighty interesting

Technically Christianity is a rogue sect of Second Temple Judaism and is therefore historically a "Jewish theological topic".... It's too tempting to conflate Israel, Judaism and the classical rogue messianic sect full of mostly Goys(and 2 million Jews) into one discussion. I think Noemon should just edit the thread to remove the religious stuff on the fly.

[Hindsite]

Technically Christianity is a rogue sect of Second Temple Judaism and is therefore historically a "Jewish theological topic".... It's too tempting to conflate Israel, Judaism and the classical rogue messianic sect full of mostly Goys(and 2 million Jews) into one discussion. I think Noemon should just edit the thread to remove the religious stuff on the fly.

It appears to me that any discussion of Israel and Jerusalem is not complete without some discussion of the religious "stuff" as you call it.

[maz]

What I can't understand is why the religious debate of Israel and Jerusalem only includes Christianity. Neither Christians nor Muslims are in control of Israel and Jerusalem.

Seems like we are omitting at least least one third of the debate in these discussions.

[colliric]

What I can't understand is why the religious debate of Israel and Jerusalem only includes Christianity. Neither Christians nor Muslims are in control of Israel and Jerusalem.

Seems like we are omitting at least least one third of the debate in these discussions.

We are Christians. And @Ter er and @Zionist Nationalist appear to be secular Jews. No Religious Jews here it seems

[annatar1914]

We are Christians. And @Ter er and @Zionist Nationalist appear to be secular Jews. No Religious Jews here it seems

My wife is partly Jewish on her mother's side, but she and her mother were Orthodox Christians, but that's as far as I can go too, just a little bit myself.