[layman]

Two things.

If this was making it illegal or racist to criticise a country then obviously I would not support it. I simply don’t believe that is the case though.

Secondly, yes the same has been done to Muslims like the London mayor and you lot are the first to call it out then. That is not to say there is literally no one who supports their country country of ethnic origin or religion over the host country. I suspect there are a few.

This entire debate they are having is when you take a kernel of truth and build it into a racist conspiracy theory.

Let’s get specific. What about these statements?

The state of Israel should not exist today
The state of Israel should not have been created
Zionists control the media
Israel has agents that meddle in county’s affairs
Zios should all fuck off home
Muslims will always support religion over country
Islam teaches its followers to be loyal to god over all else
Islam teaches its own laws are the only laws
Muslims don’t respect host country’s laws
Israel is the worst human rights abuser in the world

[noemon]

Two things.

If this was making it illegal or racist to criticise a country then obviously I would not support it. I simply don’t believe that is the case though.

It is quite obvious that that is the case, as it has already been used for such purposes, against both Corbyn and against university events getting banned for calling 'Israel to end apartheid', also the original author of the definition has said so himself. Margaret Hodge would also be protected by us lot if people criticised her just for being Jewish but that is not the case here, she is being criticised for her disgraceful actions against her own leader trying to prevent him from speaking up for a political cause, not her identity.

Secondly, yes the same has been done to Muslims like the London mayor and you lot are the first to call it out then. That is not to say there is literally no one who supports their country country of ethnic origin or religion over the host country. I suspect there are a few.

"Us lot?" First of all people do that to the London Mayor without the London Mayor insulting anyone and nor is he leveraging his position to prevent criticism of his ethnic nation. That is quite the key here, Margaret Hodge is in fact leveraging that position. If Sadiq Khan did that, then people would be right to criticise him for doing it, but that is not what is taking place against him where he gets the rap for simply being Muslim.

Let’s get specific. What about these statements?

The state of Israel should not exist today
The state of Israel should not have been created
Zionists control the media
Israel has agents that meddle in county’s affairs
Zios should all fuck off home
Muslims will always support religion over country
Islam teaches its followers to be loyal to god over all else
Islam teaches its own laws are the only laws
Muslims don’t respect host country’s laws
Israel is the worst human rights abuser in the world

You should be able to tell the difference yourself between a state and its nationalist ideology and a religion.

Are we really at the point where we will shield governments and their ideological tenets that people vote for from criticism instead of ethnic identities you are born into?

This entire debate they are having is when you take a kernel of truth and build it into a racist conspiracy theory.

This entire debate is about how free you are to speak about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

[Seeker8]

This has been going on for years. Why can't labour get rid of these Blairites? Are they actually trying to or are they just too cowardly?

[skinster]

I recommend reading the whole thread:

[Deutschmania]

Let’s get specific. What about these statements?

The state of Israel should not exist today
The state of Israel should not have been created
Zionists control the media
Israel has agents that meddle in county’s affairs
Zios should all fuck off home
Muslims will always support religion over country
Islam teaches its followers to be loyal to god over all else
Islam teaches its own laws are the only laws
Muslims don’t respect host country’s laws
Israel is the worst human rights abuser in the world

Going over these questions , the first two I feel should be treated the same as if someone , say a Hindu for example , were to contend that India should never have been partitioned , and that Pakistan should not exist . I might not necessarily concur with them , but I would still respect their right to say it regardless . Do Zionists control the media ? I feel that the proof is in the pudding . And also , if you want to know whom controls your country , first find out whom you're not permitted to criticize . Israel , at least as much as any other nation state , such as Russia , actually does have agents embedded in even what it ostensibly considers to be friendly countries . Case in point , Jonathan Pollard . If they truly deem Israel to be their homeland , as Jews , then they should put up or shut up , by making Aliyah . As to Islam , not to be making a "Tu Quoque " , but I don't make distinction between such Islamists , and their counterparts in respects to Christianity , the Christian Reconstructionists , and all other adherents of Dominion Theology , more generally . And if , say for example , I were to discover anyone in my country whom has ties to the government of an Islamic country , like say Turkey , and supports pan-Islamic , and/or pan-Turkish nationalism , I would feel that such an individual should be denounced , and even potentially deported . As an aside , as I believe I posted before elsewhere in this forum , I actually have decided not to have as my general practicioner a Muslim woman from Turkey https://www.uhhospitals.org/find-a-doctor/guvenc-bicer-hacer-33927, in part because I have discovered from doing background research online that her family , including whom I take to be her father https://m.facebook.com/fatmanur.guvenc.771, has ties to Pres. Erdogan's Justice and Development Party , and furthermore , going by some of his pictures , supports the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood , which would include Hamas . So I go to another town some ways away for healthcare . There are plenty of clinics in the surrounding area of where I reside , so it's no trouble .

[Deutschmania]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=106&v=VsUTXQTHViM

I noticed that the interviewer , a Norman somebody , committed two logical fallacies , the consensus , and the authority fallacy . Also , I just read these two articles in The Guardian , which shows that the Left , including the Jewish Left , is unequivocally united in opposition to recent developments in Netanyahu's Likud party ruled Israel . < https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/22/the-guardian-view-on-israels-new-law-popular-will-is-being-weaponised , https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/23/israel-racist-new-law-ashamed-apartheid-daniel-barenboim?

[skinster]

[QatzelOk]

Labour members who serve Israel?

...

Imagine what skinster would say if people said the same about Muslim labour members.

Well, if Skinster said that Russia was interfering in Western political freedom and sovereignty, he's be Rachel Maddow and the entire Democrat Party chorus. And everyone would agree that this isn't acceptable.

But when the colonizers of Palestine are caught red-handed denying the independence and sovereignty of others, the discoverers are desribed as unrecoverable racists.

Is Rachel Maddow an unrecoverable racist for accusing Russia of manipulating the USA political freedom?

Does "racism" only apply to people who notice that rich gangsters are manipulating everyone else?

[skinster]

[Rich]

[Decky]

Corbyn needs to purge these traitors. Those who have taken Mossad's 30 peices of silver to use their possition as Labour MPs to represent the zionist entiry rather than representing the British working class have commited treason. Their ludicrious claims of anti semetism are (as usal) nonsense. Anti semetism exists only on the right, it was the far left who smashed Hitler and liberated Austwitz, not that the Jews ever seem to remeber that. There is not once European Jew alive today who does not owe their lives to the efforts of this man and it is time they remembered it.

[Rich]

it was the far left who smashed Hitler and liberated Austwitz, not that the Jews ever seem to remeber that. There is not once European Jew alive today who does not owe their lives to the efforts of this man and it is time they remembered it.

It was Britain and France that stood against Hitler. It was Britain standing alone that survived and pushed Hitler into declaring war on both the USSR and the USA. The Nazis were only able to overthrow democracy in Germany with the help of the German Communist Party, forcing the suspension of normal parliamentary democracy. Under Stalin's leadership the Commintern denounced the Social Democrats as social fascists.

In August 1939 Stalin entered an alliance with Hitler. Raw materials, particularly oil were vital to Hitler's early conquests. In 1942 and 1943 the offensive power of the Wehrmacht collapsed, deprived of Soviet oil the German army was forced into large scale de-motorisation. the great early victories in Poland, Norway, the Low countries, France, North Africa, Crete and Barbarossa 1941, were all enabled by Soviet supplied oil. Auchwitz opened in September 1941 while Hitler and Stalin are still allies. After the fall of France Hitler started demobilising parts of his army. He showed no interest in attacking the Soviet Union. His rantings in Mein Kampf would probably have been forgotten. Without Churchill's intransigent opposition to the Nazi regime, Hitler and Stalin might well have remained friends. The attack on the Soviet Union was initially conceptualised as a way to bring Britain to the negotiating table.

[skinster]

Three Jewish papers take the unprecedented step of publishing the same page on Labour antisemitism
Britain’s three leading Jewish newspapers — Jewish Chronicle, Jewish News and Jewish Telegraph — take the unprecedented step of speaking as one by publishing the same front page.

We do so because of the existential threat to Jewish life in this country that would be posed by a Jeremy Corbyn-led government.

We do so because the party that was, until recently, the natural home for our community has seen its values and integrity eroded by Corbynite contempt for Jews and Israel.

The stain and shame of antisemitism has coursed through Her Majesty’s Opposition since Jeremy Corbyn became leader in 2015.

From Chakrabarti to Livingstone, there have been many alarming lows. Last week’s stubborn refusal to adopt the full International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of antisemitism, provoking Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge to call her leader an antisemite to his face, was the most sinister yet.

Labour has diluted the IHRA definition, accepted in full by the government and more than 130 local councils, deleting and amending four key examples of antisemitism relating to Israel.

Under its adapted guidelines, a Labour Party member is free to claim Israel’s existence is a racist endeavour and compare Israeli policies to those of Nazi Germany, unless “intent” — whatever that means — can be proved. “Dirty Jew” is wrong, “Zionist bitch” fair game?

In so doing, Labour makes a distinction between racial antisemitism targeting Jews (unacceptable) and political antisemitism targeting Israel (acceptable).

The reason for this move? Had the full IHRA definition with examples relating to Israel been approved, hundreds, if not thousands, of Labour and Momentum members would need to be expelled.

With the government in Brexit disarray, there is a clear and present danger that a man with a default blindness to the Jewish community’s fears, a man who has a problem seeing that hateful rhetoric aimed at Israel can easily step into antisemitism, could be our next prime minister.

On 5 September, Labour MPs vote on an emergency motion, calling for the party to adopt the full IHRA definition into its rulebook.

Following that, it will face a binary choice: implement IHRA in full or be seen by all decent people as an institutionally racist, antisemitic party.

After three deeply painful years for our community, September is finally make or break.
https://www.thejc.com/comment/leaders/t ... m-1.467641

zionist-desperation for the lulz.

[Paddy14]

Look, I admit that I don't know nuch about this - but why is it more wrong to be antisemitic than it is to be anti-Muslim or anti-Catholic? Like why are the group called International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance allowed to make laws for the whole world. Shouldn't anyone be allowed to criticise Britain, Australia, the USA, Germany or Israel, if they think they have reasons for that?

[Paddy14]

I made a typo in that post - how can I edit it?

[layman]

@QatzelOk who is claiming mps work for Russia? Only Muslim and Jewish peoples get accused in this particular way. Any support for Israel or critism of the Palestinian movement makes you part of the Zionist blob. This is the modern version of traditional anti semitism.

There is a distinction between this and very real meddling that Israel, Russia, Saudi and indeed the uk and the us do in other country’s.

[noemon]

@QatzelOk who is claiming mps work for Russia? Only Muslim and Jewish peoples get accused in this particular way. Any support for Israel or critism of the Palestinian movement makes you part of the Zionist blob. This is the modern version of traditional anti semitism.

There is a distinction between this and very real meddling that Israel, Russia, Saudi and indeed the uk and the us do in other country’s.

Hey mate, calling someone a zionist(Israeli nationalist or supporter of Israeli nationalism) is not racist(antisemitic), just like calling someone an American or Greek or French or German nationalist is not racist either. If someone is being a 'nationalist' by supporting typical ultra-nationalist activities such as aggression against their neighbours, expansionism, irredentism, ethnic/religious apartheid, etcetera then it is so and it is neither racist nor should it be illegal to call that out, even suggesting such things is preposterous and that should be obvious. Labour MP's fighting such a cause(.ie to make stating the obvious illegal) in order to protect a foreign state from criticism and prevent their own party from supporting a cause they have already pledged to support(.ie Palestinian statehood) in broad daylight and without any second thoughts is outrageous. If these same MP's were for example trying to make it illegal to criticise Russia for occupying the Crimea, they would have been totally ridiculed by the British press and political establishment and accused of being Russian spies, they would possibly be charged with treason too.

[Patrickov]

I have a feeling that the situation will quickly descend to something like "criticizing Likud or even Netanyahu = Antisemitism".

If such a thing happens I might consider myself a Nazi. (Well, by being anti-Communist I probably have partially been one already)

[layman]

Criticising the existence of a country (saying it should cease to exist) is not the same as criticism of a country.

Saying someone works for another country is not the same as saying someone supports it.

[Rich]

Criticising the existence of a country (saying it should cease to exist) is not the same as criticism of a country.

Luxembourg, Monaco, San Marino, Lichtenstein and the Papal state should not exist. However perhaps we should ban racists who say the state of Alania shouldn't exist.

The Palestinian debate is mainly between Jewish supremacist bigots, many of whom are not Jews and Muslim supremacist bigots, many of whom are not Muslims.