[Pants-of-dog]

I am seriously asking you why you believe that US supported regime change will not follow the same pattern as the previous two US interventions in Nicaragua.

It is not as if a lot has changed since the Contras.

[Sivad]

It is not as if a lot has changed since the Contras.

The US hsn't operated anywhere near that level since the Cold War ended.

[Drlee]

I am seriously asking you why you believe that US supported regime change will not follow the same pattern as the previous two US interventions in Nicaragua.

And I am answering you by asking you how you believe the US supporting through encouraging dissidents is anything like a military intervention.

You are on and off POD. You do not see shades very well.

[Red_Army]

@skinster and @Pants-of-dog Here's an article from a socialist perspective that denounces Ortega from a couple years ago.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/04/bern ... evolution/

[Pants-of-dog]

The US hsn't operated anywhere near that level since the Cold War ended.

You should tell that to all the Muslims.

And I am answering you by asking you how you believe the US supporting through encouraging dissidents is anything like a military intervention.

When the USA supported the Contras, that was the “US supporting through encouraging dissidents”, as you put it.

That resulted in a large number of human rights violations.

Now, why would this be different?

[Nonsense]

And I am answering you by asking you how you believe the US supporting through encouraging dissidents is anything like a military intervention.

You are on and off POD. You do not see shades very well.

I know that I am long-in-the-tooth, but how is 'answering' a question with a question, answering the question?

Driee- It is a typical American war, operated by proxy.

The Americans armed the Contras, as with many countries that the U.S.A has involved itself in,it provides the arms in which to stoke the fire of internal conflict.

It's the old, 'Divide & Rule' so beloved by any hegemonic empire-building state.

Even Syria, where Bashar Assad's father was in power, the Americans supplied them with $BILLIONS worth of arms, NOT for security or prosperity, but simply to further the American hegemony.
That's why the Americans don't like Assad junior, because he doesn't play ball with America & so much the better for all in the Middle East for it.

[Sivad]

You should tell that to all the Muslims.

I'm obviously talking about Latin America. Do you ever dialogue in good faith?

[Pants-of-dog]

I'm obviously talking about Latin America. Do you ever dialogue in good faith?

So we agree that the USA is still up to its ususal tricks of intervention in the name of neoliberalism.

Now, if you are claiming that the amount of interventions in Latin A,erica has dropped significantly, please present evidence for this claim.

I predict that instead of evidence, you will call me names or otherwise attack me.

[Sivad]

So we agree that the USA is still up to its ususal tricks of intervention in the name of neoliberalism.

Not in Latin America.

Now, if you are claiming that the amount of interventions in Latin A,erica has dropped significantly, please present evidence for this claim.

If you had one shred of evidence for a major direct intervention you would have posted it. You aren't aware of any because there haven't been any.

I predict that instead of evidence, you will call me names or otherwise attack me.

If you ever get real I'll start taking you seriously, until then you're just another bullshitter on the internet.

[Pants-of-dog]

Not in Latin America.

If you had one shred of evidence for a major direct intervention you would have posted it. You aren't aware of any because there haven't been any.

The original point was that the USA has not significantly changed its foreign policy since the Iran Contra scandal. This is true. It is still continuing its neoliberal policies of exporting capitalism at gunpoint.

As you point out, the focus seems to have shifted away from Latin America. This is probably due to several reasons, including peak oil and the loss of the USSR as a major player.

But the US is still perfectly fine with supporting non-democratic governments when it suits their financial interests. Saudi Arabia is an excellent example.

And if the US is now looking at getting oil, the ideal target in Latin America would be Venezuela. And Venezuela has had a significant amount of political turmoil that seems to lead back to the USA. It is very possible that we see proof of this in twenty years when the documents become declassified.

If you ever get real I'll start taking you seriously, until then you're just another bullshitter on the internet.

So my prediction was correct.

[redcarpet]

Dictatorship doesn't have to be installed afterwards. Liberal democracy was re-installed in Germany, Italy and Japan in the 1940s.

A UN interim administration could be established afterwards, which should have been done after Iraq was invaded in 2003.

[Red_Army]

I doubt the US will support the right sort of change, but there definitely needs to be one from the sound of it. Ortega has abandoned revolution in the name of personal profit. That kind of corruption is the bane of revolution and needs to be dealt with.

[Sivad]

I doubt the US will support the right sort of change

The US is always going to oppose democractic populism and support elitist neoliberalism, that's a given, it's just not doing it through direct intervention these days. The US will give its blessing on a regime change(Honduras 09) or back opposition propaganda, but it doesn't directly intervene. The most coercive action it will take is economic sanctions.

[Red_Army]

I think we'd take a shot if it presented itself. The NED definitely supported the coup against Chavez.

[Sivad]

I think we'd take a shot if it presented itself.

The opportunities just aren't there anymore. The Cold War is over so there's no threat of an "evil empire" to justify those measures and with the internet there's no way to do it covertly.

The NED definitely supported the coup against Chavez.

It backed the opposition with big money but it didn't supply arms or train death squads. Don't get me wrong, it's still fucked up what the US government is doing down there but the biggest problem those societies face these days is internal class war and political corruption, not US imperialism.

Left populism has pretty much dominated the region over the last 15 years and that's because the US has been far less aggressive since the cold war ended. The resurgence of the right over the last few years is mostly due to economic mismanagement by those pink tide governments.

[Red_Army]

I feel like wholesale corruption is a more accurate description than economic mismanagement, but otherwise I agree.

[QatzelOk]

I feel like wholesale corruption is a more accurate description than economic mismanagement, but otherwise I agree.

Yes, the left are not great economic managers. They try to get food and housing to everyone, when we all know that the best (right wing) economists borrow billions for western arms, and then leave the country to live in Miami.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Donald_Trump_crop_2015.jpeg

The government of "Nicaragua" is corrupt and and its leaders are incompetent. The president is a blow-hard buffoon with no vision that goes any further than his own icon. The people of "Nicaragua" seem to have no concept of democracy or a well-run state. Perhaps there is a lack of generalized public education in "Nicaragua" or perhaps its short-lived experiment in governance is coming to an end.

[skinster]

Well Blumenthal has destroyed his credibility. These stupid fucks just cannot stop defending corrupt gulagists.

You have a tendency to say that about journalists/activists you once like and get upset with because they report things in ways that deviate from your worldview. Perhaps it's you who's wrong?

Besides, Max doesn't have much credibility anyway since the MSM won't touch any of his books or journalism otherwise, because the MSM doesn't like truth-tellers.

:knife: The US hsn't operated anywhere near that level since the Cold War ended.

I knew exactly what POD meant when he stated what he did, meaning in the ME. The US has this pattern of doing the same shit over and over again, even tricking those on the left into falling for their propaganda, as can be seen ITT and similar ones. SAD!

@skinster and @Pants-of-dog Here's an article from a socialist perspective that denounces Ortega from a couple years ago.

I guess you missed the memo that Jaco-put-it-in-the-bin has been not very socialist and very pro regime-change a lot in the last few years, promoting the same in countries like Syria, Libya, Venezuela etc.

[Red_Army]

I think socialism is very pro regime-change in a lot of instances. It's a revolutionary ideology after all. If you're saying Jacobin has written pro US intervention articles I'd like to see them.

[skinster]

Imperialist regime-change wars and socialist revolution are not the same, frand.

Here's an article and some posts re: Jacobin: