Trump Administration Eyes Defining Transgender Out of Existence - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14956231
Pants-of-dog wrote:This is so poorly written that it took me a while to figure out you were actually addressing me.

What are you trying to say?

I pointed out to @Verv that feelings are not a good reason to determine social policy. If it were, then we would outlaw portrayals of Mohammed because it would hurt the feelings of Muslims.

And in response to this point, you claim that you are being ruled by some minority?


You said his comments were not relevant to social policy, but his comments described Democracy. So is your argument Democracy is not relevant? If so then you are supporting rule by minority view. This is the problem with expanding individual rights too far. This is what he is saying. There must be limits or their is no democracy.
#14956233
One Degree wrote:You said his comments were not relevant to social policy, but his comments described Democracy.


No. Verv’s comments were about how sentiment is relevant.

So is your argument Democracy is not relevant? If so then you are supporting rule by minority view. This is the problem with expanding individual rights too far. This is what he is saying. There must be limits or their is no democracy.


Again, you misunderstood. Verv was not discussing democracy.
#14956238
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. Verv’s comments were about how sentiment is relevant.



Again, you misunderstood. Verv was not discussing democracy.


His ‘sentiment’ was still the basis of Democracy. Unlimited individual rights is anarchy. His sentiments are right on. There must be a point where you say ‘enough’ no matter how unfair it is to a few or you have anarchy.
#14956307
Rugoz wrote:This is going nowhere. Let's take this German law from 1981 as a reference, in particular the change of the "Personenstand". https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuellengesetz

Do you approve of that solution?

Probably not, as it also seems to muddle the distinction between sex and gender. As far as I can tell, it is also wholly inadequate to deal with increasingly popular concepts such as "gender-fluid" or "non-binary".
#14956309
@Pants-of-dog

People are not paraphilias.


People can have paraphilias. But i'm glad you said that, because if a paraphilia like gender dysphoria is a ''condition'', something people ''have'', then these paraphilias are something that they can control. Or if they can't control it, Society can control it for them. I hear Diabetes is a condition that is often genetic in expression, and many people can learn to control it too...

The fact that someone has a paraphilia should not affect whether or not they enjoy the same rights as everyone else.


I'm not talking just about ''rights'', of which there has been too much talk of, but of responsibilities. A person with a paraphilia that has social consequences (not to speak of moral consequences) has the obligation to restrain themselves... And I'm not obligated to treat someone with a debilitating mental condition with a tenuous grip on important aspects of reality, as if they are just another kind of normal human being.



You are right. We should treat all people equally, regardless of paraphilia. This means that trans people should have the same rights as the rest of us.


Arsonists and pickpockets are treated equally under the law too, same as me. When I do something socially destructive whether I even have morally agency in the matter or not, I am rightfully subject to penalties and restraints on my behavior.

I shouldn't have to explain to my young daughter why a man is dressed as a woman in public, like i've had to recently, much to my disgust.



My point was that trans people are not doing anything wrong.


They, and your point, are wrong, and you know it, which is why you defend it with such energy but little reason.

Mind you, I also disagree that equality struggles, other than Marxist ones, are somehow detracting from the Marxist struggle.


This is where you are also incorrect. Seen any working socialist revolutions whose vanguard is composed of freaks and deviants lately, past few decades?
#14956332
annatar1914 wrote:People can have paraphilias. But i'm glad you said that, because if a paraphilia like gender dysphoria is a ''condition'', something people ''have'', then these paraphilias are something that they can control. Or if they can't control it, Society can control it for them. I hear Diabetes is a condition that is often genetic in expression, and many people can learn to control it too...


What does this have to do with my point that someone having a paraphilia should not affect whether or not they enjoy the same rights as everyone else?

Also, you are using the word “paraphilia” incorrectly.

I'm not talking just about ''rights'', of which there has been too much talk of, but of responsibilities. A person with a paraphilia that has social consequences (not to speak of moral consequences) has the obligation to restrain themselves... And I'm not obligated to treat someone with a debilitating mental condition with a tenuous grip on important aspects of reality, as if they are just another kind of normal human being.


No, you are not obligated to be kind and accepting of trans people. You have the right to be transphobic.

But in this day and age, that comes with consequences. Losing your job, social ostracism, etc.

Arsonists and pickpockets are treated equally under the law too, same as me. When I do something socially destructive whether I even have morally agency in the matter or not, I am rightfully subject to penalties and restraints on my behavior.

I shouldn't have to explain to my young daughter why a man is dressed as a woman in public, like i've had to recently, much to my disgust.


Your disguest is irrelevant. I get disgusted by lots of things but I do not argue that this is reason to take away the rights of others.

Also, being trans is not socially destructive.

They, and your point, are wrong, and you know it, which is why you defend it with such energy but little reason.


No. Trans people are doing nothing wrong.

You can tell this is true by the fact that you have not mentioned what it is that they are supposedly doing wrong.

This is where you are also incorrect. Seen any working socialist revolutions whose vanguard is composed of freaks and deviants lately, past few decades?


Your insults towards trans people are not an argument.
#14956346
@Pants-of-dog

What does this have to do with my point that someone having a paraphilia should not affect whether or not they enjoy the same rights as everyone else?


It has everything to do with it. Those of us who are even minimally adult and responsible human beings know that we do not have the right to expose others to our abnormal sexual behavior. Otherwise, would not a pedophile have the ''right'' to expose themselves to children?



Also, you are using the word “paraphilia” incorrectly.


Not so.

Paraphilias, or sexual deviations, are defined as unusual fantasies, urges, or behaviours that are recurrent and sexually arousing.



No, you are not obligated to be kind and accepting of trans people. You have the right to be transphobic.


You said ''people are not paraphilias''. I am accepting of and kind to people. I am not always accepting and kind in response to displays of unusual fantasies, urges, or behaviours.

But in this day and age, that comes with consequences. Losing your job, social ostracism, etc.


In this day and age, the darkest of all dark ages because of it's moral and spiritual blindness, I can take the consequences, for they are not eternal ones. But I fear for the eternal consequences of those who are morally and spiritually blind.



Your disguest is irrelevant. I get disgusted by lots of things but I do not argue that this is reason to take away the rights of others.


Mental illness, especially mental illness that has socially interactive consequences, does not give one special ''rights'' above that of others, other than perhaps a greater degree of proper mental health care.

Also, being trans is not socially destructive.


Sure it is, it attempts to be destructive of the very foundation of what it means to be a human being, in the minds of the gender dysphoric and their enablers, and insofar as they attempt to propagate this lunacy to others as being normative and right.



No. Trans people are doing nothing wrong.


As I say above, they certainly are when they've gone public and political with their mental illness, disguising it as an ''alternative lifestyle''.

You can tell this is true by the fact that you have not mentioned what it is that they are supposedly doing wrong.


I have, but you haven't been willing to see.



Your insults towards trans people are not an argument.


Telling the truth to someone is an act of brotherly love, not an insult. It's an insult to lie to them keeping them in their delusions.
#14956348
@annatar1914 said...
Telling the truth to someone is an act of brotherly love, not an insult. It's an insult to lie to them keeping them in their delusions.


Amen. This hits at the crux of the problem. We are told we must accept behavior we find unacceptable because of ‘rights’. This demand never to criticize opens the door to ever more bizarre behavior because no one is suppose to tell them they are disgusting. We are to just accept.
But, the entire purpose of a community is to tell people when their behavior is not acceptable to the majority. Extreme liberalism destroys the very basis of what a community is suppose to be. Everything is not suppose to be acceptable. We are suppose to say sometimes ‘no’, we don’t want those rights in our community.
And we don’t even need a reason to do so. It is simply what a community does.
#14956350
annatar1914 wrote:It has everything to do with it. Those of us who are even minimally adult and responsible human beings know that we do not have the right to expose others to our abnormal sexual behavior. Otherwise, would not a pedophile have the ''right'' to expose themselves to children?


So as long as the paraphilia involves consenting adults, there is no reason to discriminate against the people with said paraphilia.

Not so.

Paraphilias, or sexual deviations, are defined as unusual fantasies, urges, or behaviours that are recurrent and sexually arousing.


Sine there is nothing sexually arousing about being trans, you are using “paraphilia” incorrectly.

You said ''people are not paraphilias''. I am accepting of and kind to people. I am not always accepting and kind in response to displays of unusual fantasies, urges, or behaviours.


Even if they do not hurt anyone?

I tend not to care if people are being unusual but it does not hurt anyone.

In this day and age, the darkest of all dark ages because of it's moral and spiritual blindness, I can take the consequences, for they are not eternal ones. But I fear for the eternal consequences of those who are morally and spiritually blind.


Sure.

My point was that you still have the right to be transphobic. It is simply not socially acceptable any more.

Mental illness, especially mental illness that has socially interactive consequences, does not give one special ''rights'' above that of others, other than perhaps a greater degree of proper mental health care.


Since trans people are onky asking for equality, this is a strawman.

Sure it is, it attempts to be destructive of the very foundation of what it means to be a human being, in the minds of the gender dysphoric and their enablers, and insofar as they attempt to propagate this lunacy to others as being normative and right.


This is just a vague platitude. It is not destructive of anything.

As I say above, they certainly are when they've gone public and political with their mental illness, disguising it as an ''alternative lifestyle''.


No. Repeating your claim without any elaboration or evidence is not an argument.

I have, but you haven't been willing to see.


No, you have not explained what or who they are hurting. You just mentioned vague things about “humanity” and “disgust”.

Telling the truth to someone is an act of brotherly love, not an insult. It's an insult to lie to them keeping them in their delusions.


This is getting vaguer and more self aggrandizing.

Can you provide evidence of actual harm to someone or something that is caused by trans people?
#14956483
Hindsite wrote:So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

(Genesis 1:27 KJV)

If God wanted a transgender version, He would have created one.
Praise the Lord.

There is more variation than that though . Both in regards to chromosomes , and genitalia https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/you-can-t-undo-surgery-more-parents-intersex-babies-are-n923271?cid=eml_mrd_20181024 , and gender alike
. And in addition , there is evidence that transgender people have a brain structure resembling that of the gender they identify with , rather than that of the sex they were assigned at birth . <https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/ , https://psychcentral.com/news/2018/03/16/structural-brain-differences-for-transgender-people/133802.html >
#14956596
This transgender study was just a bunch of hate speech. The physician should have known that she couldn't get away with saying that coming out as transgender is basically a fashionable trend.

New paper ignites storm over whether teens experience ‘rapid onset’ of transgender identity
Controversy is exploding around a paper published earlier this month in PLOS ONE by a public health expert at Brown University describing reports by parents that their children suddenly experienced unease with the gender they were assigned at birth; the paper calls the condition “rapid onset gender dysphoria” (ROGD).

The paper, by physician-scientist Lisa Littman, is drawing fierce criticism from transgender advocates, who call it antitransgender because it suggests that some cases of gender dysphoria may be “socially contagious.” They say the paper has serious methodological flaws, noting that Littman interviewed only parents, not the young people themselves, and recruited from websites frequented by parents who were concerned about their children’s apparently sudden gender transitions. Meanwhile, the reactions of Brown and the journal are being assailed by critics who accuse them of caving to political pressure


Why are so many teenage girls appearing in gender clinics?

A new paper suggests this may be partly a social phenomenon

Lisa Littman, an assistant professor of behavioural and social sciences at Brown University, was curious about what was causing these changes. She had come across reports from parents on online forums describing a new pattern of behaviour: adolescents without a history of childhood gender dysphoria were announcing they were transgender after a period of immersing themselves in niche websites or after similar announcements from friends. Her study suggests that these children may be grappling with what she calls “rapid-onset gender dysphoria”.

For the study, Dr Littman recruited 256 parents of children whose symptoms of gender dysphoria suddenly appeared for the first time in adolescence. These parents—Ms Miller among them—took part anonymously in an online, 90-question survey. Dr Littman’s findings suggest that a process of “social and peer contagion” may play a role. According to the parents surveyed, 87% of children came out as transgender after spending more time online, after “cluster outbreaks” of gender dysphoria in friend groups, or both. (In a third of the friendship groups, half or more of the individuals came out as transgender; by contrast, just 0.7% of Americans aged between 18 and 24 are transgender.) Most children who came out became more popular as a result. Rachel, Ms Miller’s daughter, says that when she told her friends, all of whom she had met online, they congratulated her: “It was, like, welcome home.”

Dr Littman thinks that some adolescents may embrace the idea that they are transgender as a way of coping with symptoms of a different, underlying issue. Almost two-thirds of the children had one or more diagnoses of a psychiatric or developmental disorder preceding the onset of gender dysphoria; nearly half had self-harmed or experienced some trauma. This is consistent with other studies of gender dysphoria when it sets in during puberty. Some people distract themselves from emotional pain by drinking, taking drugs, cutting or starving themselves. Dr Littman suggests that, for some, gender dysphoria may also be in this category.

The study has attracted heavy criticism. Some is reasonable. Though it is a solid first attempt to describe a recently observed phenomenon, it is qualitative rather than quantitative, and relies solely on interviews with parents, not children. Dr Littman posted links to her survey on three websites where parents and clinicians had described the abrupt appearance of adolescent gender dysphoria: 4thWaveNow, Transgender Trend and youthtranscriticalprofessionals. Referring to these sites as “anti-trans”, Diane Ehrensaft, the director of mental health at a gender clinic in San Francisco, has written that “this would be like recruiting from Klan or alt-right sites to demonstrate that blacks really are an inferior race”. Dr Littman replies that 88% of the parents in her study said transgender people deserve the same rights as others, which is in line with national opinion. Similar methodology is frequently used in social research, particularly into children.

The reaction to publication of the study has gone beyond what might be expected in a regular academic dispute. Brown removed from its website a press release advertising her research, noting that PLOS ONE, the journal in which the study was published, was seeking “further expert assessment”. In a later statement, the university said: “There is an added obligation for vigilance in research design and analysis any time there are implications for the health of the communities at the centre of research and study.” Parents and academics have in turn attacked Brown for caving to pressure from trans activists.
Last edited by maz on 24 Oct 2018 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
#14956603
Maz's post makes some very good points. Gender reassignment should only happen at the end of long and arduous psychiatric care.

Of course that does not answer our question about what to do with those who have transitioned.

As I say above, they certainly are when they've gone public and political with their mental illness, disguising it as an ''alternative lifestyle''.


Transgendered people do not describe their transition as an "alternative lifestyle". It is far more than that. It is a condition treated medically. They are not playing dress up.

I wonder if those opposing gender reassignment actually know what it is.
#14956636
The left bludgeoned the psychiatrist association into denying the truth, so they will have no problem destroying her. Any one with half a brain has seen this happening.


Yea. Sure "the left" did.

Poor APA. Beaten into submission by those big bad lib'rals.

Any one with half a brain has seen this happening.


Yes. But don't be so hard on yourself.
#14956641
Drlee wrote:Yea. Sure "the left" did.

Poor APA. Beaten into submission by those big bad lib'rals.



Yes. But don't be so hard on yourself.


Are you saying you don’t remember the tremendous pressure on them to change their view? :)
I recall it being in the headlines for awhile since they resisted the pressure for awhile. I bet you remember.:)
#14956643
Just shows how academia is run by ideologues who actually inhibit proper scientific evaluation of current issues. Perhaps it also shows limitation of science and that academies of science like many other organizations can fall victim to blind fanaticism which can guide us into wrong direction as society. This is especially rings true in schools of sociology and psychology.

I remember few years back when American Psychological Association tried to define pedophilia as sexual orientation instead of mental illness. That is when psychology lost a lot of credibility for me and was a big eye opener of how misguided psychology can actually be.
#14956645
Albert wrote:That is when psychology lost a lot of credibility for me and was a big eye opener of how misguided psychology can actually be.


Pseudoscience was always pseudoscience.

Most scientific option in regards to the topic at hand would be to define two biological sexes or genders roles stemming from them (attempts to hijack this term are mere sophistry) at birth. The rest are aberrations. We don't call Trisomy-21 or Conjoined Twins sufferers a second human species. XXY or XYY are not different genders. These are all disorders. Just variations of biological males and females with a plethora of physiological / developmental problems. Inter-Species biology and hormone composition gone so wrong it isn't viable enough to proliferate on its own but instead comes from properly formed individuals. If a trait can't stand on its own and proliferate its own it's not a valid differentiation-especially in something as fundamental as biological sex and the roles that stem from that.

Beyond this, when people grow up, they can pretend to be whatever they like, from plush furry to attack helicopter-with all the associated consequences of being a willful retard through adulthood.
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