Trump Administration Eyes Defining Transgender Out of Existence - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14956650
A friend of my son(age 10), watched a transgender documentary this summer and decided that from now on he is gender-neutral, he wears a skirt at school and has instructed people to address him as it. He is a very clever boy that I have had the chance of having over and look after at home a few times, he is certainly the most clever of the bunch but also the most lonely one too as he appears weird to his peers. Whenever he was coming over he was trying to impress me with his knowledge of all things Greek and he really enjoyed our conversations. I am of the opinion that this is his latest attempt to bring attention to himself, recently I saw him and tried to greet him but when he saw me he clearly felt ashamed and changed direction. His mother is a huge woman and his father is a tiny man with several degrees of height and size apart from each other and they are both very educated.
#14956653
Interesting. Clearly a cry for attention.

I forgot to mention, that men and women can share their gender roles as many things are interchangeable. Another thing that works against the concept of transgenderism. Daddy doesn't have to don a wig every time he takes the kids out to the park or stays at home looking after them while mommy is out working. He can if he wants to, he can even don a clown costume. But it shouldn't be described as his new biological identity.
#14956666
Albert wrote:Just shows how academia is run by ideologues who actually inhibit proper scientific evaluation of current issues. Perhaps it also shows limitation of science and that academies of science like many other organizations can fall victim to blind fanaticism which can guide us into wrong direction as society. This is especially rings true in schools of sociology and psychology.


Or:the science is right and your beliefs are simply incorrect.

I remember few years back when American Psychological Association tried to define pedophilia as sexual orientation instead of mental illness. That is when psychology lost a lot of credibility for me and was a big eye opener of how misguided psychology can actually be.


I doubt this is true.
#14956669
Rancid wrote:I don't understand why conservatives are so hell bent on fucking over these people.

I don't understand why progressives are so hell bent on fucking over women.

Deutschmania wrote:There is more variation than that though . Both in regards to chromosomes , and genitalia.

Sure, there's plenty of variation with respect to human anatomy. For example, some people are born with limbs missing in part or whole right up to the absence of all four limbs. Humans clearly lie on a spectrum, from having four fully formed limbs to having no limbs whatsoever and everything in between. We need to embrace if not celebrate this type of human anatomical diversity. It's perfectly normal to have no limbs after all and certainly not a birth defect.

Deutschmania wrote:And in addition , there is evidence that transgender people have a brain structure resembling that of the gender they identify with , rather than that of the sex they were assigned at birth . <https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan/ , https://psychcentral.com/news/2018/03/16/structural-brain-differences-for-transgender-people/133802.html >

I wouldn't be surprised if they found differences, although this needs to be confirmed with larger samples. More interesting is how progressives will deal with the fact that they are now making the case for male and female brains being different, after having strenuously opposed this for so long.

Drlee wrote:Of course that does not answer our question about what to do with those who have transitioned.

There's probably no ideal solution. It doesn't help that the proposed solution which conflates sex and gender into one doesn't serve both sexes equally well either. I have a hard time believing that women who identify as men are necessarily keen to go to men's prisons, use men's changing rooms and lavatories and so on. They are clearly better served if they are not treated as actual men by default in all situations. However, simply letting the individual choose isn't a solution either, as girls (& their parents) and women must be able to object and voice concerns regarding men who identify as women, especially considering the push for people to be accommodated simply based on their say so. At least in the UK it's becoming difficult to do this because is clashes with hate crime legislation and policies by public bodies and other organisations regarding "harassment" and "toxic environments".

We need to step back and stop pretending that this is an urgent human rights issue. Those who are genuinely ill are certainly disadvantaged but no more than the myriad of other people who cannot fully access and participate in society, such as people who cannot tolerate sensory stimuli, who have OCD/Tourette-type symptoms, who have other behavioural problems and those who want to dress up as something other than the opposite sex. At this point, we have the whole thing backwards: rather than changing society so that it can accommodate everybody - which is essentially the lowest common denominator - we need to go back and concentrate on finding out what's wrong with these people and find a treatment.

Moreover, the real crisis and danger today is the "affirmation" treatment of transgender children which, if it hasn't already happened, will cause more damage than whatever hardship is caused by men not being able to use women's toilets and the like. So the culture warriors who, among other things, are using children and teenagers for their own ends need to be pushed back and defeated first. And this is especially important within the academy, as it is becoming difficult to even do research or publish on this matter if it doesn't accord with their views, again in part facilitated by hate crime, harassment and toxic environment charges. While this is not entirely a political issue, much of it is and politicians and public servants who make a stand are doing us a public service.

Drlee wrote:Transgendered people do not describe their transition as an "alternative lifestyle". It is far more than that. It is a condition treated medically. They are not playing dress up.

By now the people you are talking about here are a subset of those who identify with the transgender label. This is rapidly evolving which is one reason why a clarification regarding sex and gender is welcome.
#14956682
Pants-of-dog wrote:Or:the science is right and your beliefs are simply incorrect.



I doubt this is true.
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/apa-c ... s-an-error

https://www.wnd.com/2014/01/pedophilia- ... evolution/

http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/health/2018 ... by-society

This bullshit is still going on, it seems academia is full of idiots who want to redefine pedophilia in same manner as homosexuality was prior. It needs to be purged of these assholes. There is no really other solution left to deal with academia.
#14956690
:roll: @Albert You just picked some of the most hardcore right wing sites to get your sources from, and an opinion piece, at that(The Pedophile piece). I think you missed your Breitbart source. :knife:

This statement alone is complete and utter rubbish(from one of your sources):
The underlying assumption that has led to the increasing legitimization of same-sex marriage is now fueling a growing effort in academic circles to mainstream pedophilia.

FFS, this is an outright falsehood.

The normalizing immorality part is complete fiction, as well, as it's simply his own fucked-in-the-head opinion. Citing one possible positive(mentoring) when there are so many negatives, is not condoning or even promoting normalization.

Note: One scholar saying something is just one person's opinion. Like yours so often is, it can be based on ignorance and false information.
#14956697
Albert wrote:https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/apa-c ... s-an-error


Did you read this article?

While it does say that they used the wrods “sexual orientation”, they were not using it in the legal sense of a protected group (i.e. the way we use sexual orientation to describe homosexuality).

The context in which they used it was also clear: they were describing someine who had urges but who had never acted on them.

    “In using [the term] sexual orientation, APA did not intend for it to be construed in the legal sense – as in a protected status under title IV and other legislation, but we learned that some may construe it that way,” a spokesperson who asked to remain anonymous told LifeSiteNews.com. “Therefore, we changed the word to 'interest' so that it would be clear that APA is speaking in medical terms, and is not commenting on legal status.”

    The corrected text differentiates between mere impulses and actual actions. It notes that if people “are not functionally limited by paraphilic impulses,” and “they have never acted on their impulses,” then they have “sexual interest but not pedophiliac disorder.”

So, even your biased Christian site disagrees with your claim that the APA was trying to normalise pedophilia.
#14956723
Just shows how academia is run by ideologues who actually inhibit proper scientific evaluation of current issues. Perhaps it also shows limitation of science and that academies of science like many other organizations can fall victim to blind fanaticism which can guide us into wrong direction as society. This is especially rings true in schools of sociology and psychology.


First of all you are wrong in your premise. The DSM is not "run by academics". It is one of the most carefully sourced and debated documents anywhere. Thousands of Psychiatrists have input into its definitions.

I remember few years back when American Psychological Association tried to define pedophilia as sexual orientation instead of mental illness. That is when psychology lost a lot of credibility for me and was a big eye opener of how misguided psychology can actually be.


No you don't. It never happened. Never. It has been defined in the DSM as a disorder since 1968.

I guess I have to inform you of something else. There are many pedophiles who do not molest children. Their sexual orientation toward the desire to have sex with a child under 13 (for that is the psychiatric definition) is a disorder even when they do not act on it. One would be diagnosed as a pedophile from a treatment standpoint if their desired cause them guilt, alienation, difficulty functioning from day to day even in the absence of any overt action. Now. Can we put that straw man away once and for all. We are not talking about pedophiles or people who pinch monkeys to get their jollies.

Kaiserschmarrn said: We need to step back and stop pretending that this is an urgent human rights issue. Those who are genuinely ill are certainly disadvantaged but no more than the myriad of other people who cannot fully access and participate in society, such as people who cannot tolerate sensory stimuli, who have OCD/Tourette-type symptoms, who have other behavioural problems and those who want to dress up as something other than the opposite sex.


This is absolutely true. I completely agree with this. Reasonable accommodation is the key. In the whole great scheme of things this is not a big problem. The fact that it is the subject of discussion at all is that some so-called conservatives have used it to irritate their mostly Christian base.

Moreover, the real crisis and danger today is the "affirmation" treatment of transgender children which, if it hasn't already happened, will cause more damage than whatever hardship is caused by men not being able to use women's toilets and the like. So the culture warriors who, among other things, are using children and teenagers for their own ends need to be pushed back and defeated first. And this is especially important within the academy, as it is becoming difficult to even do research or publish on this matter if it doesn't accord with their views, again in part facilitated by hate crime, harassment and toxic environment charges. While this is not entirely a political issue, much of it is and politicians and public servants who make a stand are doing us a public service.


Well this is the rub, isn't it? I can't say I disagree. You and I have had this discussion before and, if you recall, I agree with you that this diagnosis can be dangerously overused and far to quickly 'imposed' particularly on children. Where we may part company is that I am not certain that politicians have much useful to say on the matter because even on the "opposed" side, they do not propose the research you imagine; they oppose it. So both sides are stifling research. On the left because they embrace this disorder as a human rights issue rather than a medical one and on the right because they see it as sin and not worthy of research.

By now the people you are talking about here are a subset of those who identify with the transgender label. This is rapidly evolving which is one reason why a clarification regarding sex and gender is welcome.


The problem is not of clarification. With some very rare exceptions the medical community has no issue with this. Sex is determined by biology. Sex change is a misnomer. One's sex does not change. Ever. Even with surgery and hormone treatment ones sex remains determined genetically. But that is not the problem. The problem remains, how society should treat people who wish to live their lives as a member of the opposite sex.

The restroom nonsense is just laughable. Imagining the most absurd argument, one imagines the male who has had his penis removed and an artificial vagina created, breast implants and hormone therapy. Which restroom should this person use? I know what I think. The Trump administration rules would put this person in the men's room. Awkward. Sure would cause a stir showering in the men's locker room. Conversely, I do not believe that this same person; pre-op should be using the ladies room. He too would cause quite a stir in the ladies shower room.

I believe two things about this. We need to expect from transgendered people some sensitivity and common sense. We also should formalize the process of transition. As I said earlier changing ones gender should include a court procedure. Especially when the subject is a child. This serves two purposes. The most important is that the court be charged with ensuring that a valid diagnosis has been made and a comprehensive treatment regimen applied before the medical and legal decision to transition is applied. Frankly, at this point, given the state of research into the subject, especially in the case of children, I believe we should proceed under the assumption that gender reassignment medical intervention occurs because of a failure to treat gender dysphoria successfully.
#14956726
Deutschmania wrote:There is more variation than that though . Both in regards to chromosomes , and genitalia , and gender alike . And in addition , there is evidence that transgender people have a brain structure resembling that of the gender they identify with , rather than that of the sex they were assigned at birth .

However, God did not mean it to be that way. It is because of disobedience that the curse of sin came about. In Romans 5:12-21, Paul views salvation from the curse of Adam to God’s cure in Christ. Adam’s one act of disobedience brought both sin and death upon mankind. Christ’s one act of obedience, on the cross of Calvary, brought about the solution to this curse. All of the horrible things that happen throughout all of history on every corner of the globe can be attributed to the curse of sin. We must recognize that we need supernatural help to escape the curse of sin. We won’t fully escape sin’s curse until we reach heaven.

If we attempt to redefine evil as good, it will not make it so. Praise the Lord.
#14956728
However, God did not mean it to be that way. It is because of disobedience that the curse of sin came about. In Romans 5:12-21, Paul views salvation from the curse of Adam to God’s cure in Christ. Adam’s one act of disobedience brought both sin and death upon mankind. Christ’s one act of obedience, on the cross of Calvary, brought about the solution to this curse. All of the horrible things that happen throughout all of history on every corner of the globe can be attributed to the curse of sin. We must recognize that we need supernatural help to escape the curse of sin. We won’t fully escape sin’s curse until we reach heaven.


What sin is it that a person commits when one changes his/her gender?

For there are eunuchs who were born that way; others were made that way by men; and still others live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”…


Hmmmm...
#14956733
You can not change your gender DrLee. It is physically impossible. This is a sin of men dressing up as women and women dressing up as men. Bible teaches that is an abomination. In modern scientific empirical sense this is rejection of reality; aka insanity. Where the mind of a person has actually reject the physical reality of this world.

Both science and Christian teaching are both in agreement on this issue.

This is the most bizarre part of it all, because we have supposed esteemed intellectuals and people in powerful positions who are pushing down this nonsense on all of us, whereas they are doing the most unintelligent thing possible, akin to people who have lost all sense. The worst part they have shown themselves to lack morals to the point where they think it is benevolent to begin to teach this to everyone's children, regardless if parents of those children agree with it or not. People in the future will look at these people not only with awe at their stupidity/insanity but also with abhorrence at their immorality.
#14956735
Rugoz wrote:It's a shame the Romans didn't manage to crucify every last one of you when you were still a "mentally unstable extreme minority".


Imagine thinking that religious beliefs that are ethical, stoic, and within the general order of the day are roughly in the same category as suggesting it is normal, healthy, and prosocial to mutilate your body to conform to a mental disconnect. :lol:

I can't really take such a position very seriously. I'm sorry. :knife:
#14956739
Drlee wrote:What sin is it that a person commits when one changes his/her gender?

Hmmmm...

1 Corinthians 6:12-20 Modern English Version (MEV)

Glorify God in Your Body

All things are lawful to me, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of anything. Food is for the belly, and the belly is for food, but God will destroy both of them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. God has raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His own power. Do you not know that your bodies are the parts of Christ? Shall I then take the parts of Christ and make them the parts of a harlot? God forbid! What? Do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh." But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him.

Escape from sexual immorality. Every sin that a man commits is outside the body. But he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. What? Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God, and that you are not your own? You were bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s.

Praise the Lord.
#14956742
It is worth noting, though, that even very conservative Christian thinkers , liek Dr. James White, insist that the issue of transgenderism and homosexuality are like night and day. He hints at the idea that a person who is born intersex (with characteristics of both male and female and not having an absolutely clear and definitive gender) may really be in a position where they should wait, find out, and then choose the gender that they feel God has put into them.

This, of course, describes an exceedingly rare circumstance. To insist on changing while having a physically healthy body is quite the other issue.

the persistently high rates of self-induced death among the people who do the operation certainly suggest, though, that this does not actually solve the problem at all, and that there would be a better means of addressing it. The rise in prominence of this alos suggests, to me, that there are some deep seated cultural and familial issues happening in the West that are producign this kind of extreme behavior. It'd certainly be ironic for the left to insist that I am way off on this point because, you know, we have seen stranger ideological shifts throughout the world before that have lead to more extreme manifestations.
#14956743
Albert wrote:You can not change your gender DrLee. It is physically impossible. This is a sin of men dressing up as women and women dressing up as men. Bible teaches that is an abomination.

Deuteronomy 22:5 Modern English Version (MEV)

A woman must not wear man’s clothing, nor is a man to put on a woman’s clothing. For all that do so are abominations to the Lord your God.
#14956744
Verv wrote:It is worth noting, though, that even very conservative Christian thinkers , liek Dr. James White, insist that the issue of transgenderism and homosexuality are like night and day. He hints at the idea that a person who is born intersex (with characteristics of both male and female and not having an absolutely clear and definitive gender) may really be in a position where they should wait, find out, and then choose the gender that they feel God has put into them.


Also, @Albert

Many of us do not live by the myths of the Abrahamics. And because of freedom of religion, you cannot use the state to impose your religious beliefs on others.

So, religious thought is not relevant to the debate as far as I can tell.

This, of course, describes an exceedingly rare circumstance. To insist on changing while having a physically healthy body is quite the other issue.


Why do you care what people do to their bodies?

the persistently high rates of self-induced death among the people who do the operation certainly suggest, though, that this does not actually solve the problem at all, and that there would be a better means of addressing it.


Since the problems causing suicide are probably things like transphobia, and the operations do not cure transphobia in the bigots targeting trans people, why would you think the operations would solve the problems causing high rates of suicide?

The rise in prominence of this also suggests, to me, that there are some deep seated cultural and familial issues happening in the West that are producing this kind of extreme behavior. It'd certainly be ironic for the left to insist that I am way off on this point because, you know, we have seen stranger ideological shifts throughout the world before that have lead to more extreme manifestations.


Yes, and these issues are things like “acceptance of trans people” and advances in medical science which are then making it easier for trans people to be open about themselves and who they are.
#14956745
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Probably not, as it also seems to muddle the distinction between sex and gender. As far as I can tell, it is also wholly inadequate to deal with increasingly popular concepts such as "gender-fluid" or "non-binary".

Also, @Rugoz, I'd like to know your position on segregated spaces and women's safety concerns, especially in the light of the current trend of making transitions ever easier.


In my second post in this thread I wrote:

Rugoz wrote:It's certainly debatable what kind of evidence of sex change should be required, but categorically denying the right to anyone is right-wing idiocy at its best.


As for segregated spaces and women's safety concerns, the idea that a man would go through a sex change procedure to harass women on toilets is frankly absurd. This particular German law has been in place since 1981, I doubt there's been a single incident.

The whole gender-fluidity thing is certainly exaggerated to the point of absurdity by certain people, but I see it mostly as an overreaction to right-wing intolerance.

Verv wrote:Imagine thinking that religious beliefs that are ethical, stoic, and within the general order of the day...


I suppose one can be religious without believing, but people who do believe would certainly be seen as mentally ill if it weren't so common.
#14956775
Pants-of-dog wrote:
Many of us do not live by the myths of the Abrahamics. And because of freedom of religion, you cannot use the state to impose your religious beliefs on others.

So, religious thought is not relevant to the debate as far as I can tell.


So, you are a big believer in majority rules, and the minority maintains its rights? Sounds fun.

I am not so sure. I don't trust you, and I do not care that much what you think about it, and I would like to impose my viewpoints that are based off fo my historic, classical Western perspectives on you to some degree. Not to a large degree, of course, like where I can actively strip you of things, but to the degree that you will have to see my cultural norms (the norms of this society from its inception) honored.

No, of course you don't have to attend church mandatorily, nor do you have to pray in the school, nor will we invade your private life... But why would we melt our cultural institutions & conventions down into pig iron and smelt a new edifice built on cultural Marxism?

No.

We have Christian reference points in America & we will stick with that, thanks.

Why do you care what people do to their bodies?


I don't care what Bruce Jenner does to his body, or what any individual does to his individual body. Maybe in some abstract sense I would like them to not do it because I believe that is in their best interests, just as I would advise a morbidly obese man to put down the candy bar, and I would advise an alcoholic I didn't know to put down the bottle...

But what I actively care about is the collective social norms of the society.

Basically, for the same reason that you don't want to see racist culture perpetuated and will ostracize and destroy people you perceive as racists, I just want to have my opinion heard and respected, and also treated as a social norm or convention. In reality, I am really, really bloody middle of the road on this compared to the left.


Since the problems causing suicide are probably things like transphobia, and the operations do not cure transphobia in the bigots targeting trans people, why would you think the operations would solve the problems causing high rates of suicide?


Maybe... just maybe... anyone who has this condition is in a dangerous mental space to begin with, and we react as we see the situation unsettling..?

They say they can't really change their feelings on this... why do you think I will be able to change my fundamental feelings on this?

Yes, and these issues are things like “acceptance of trans people” and advances in medical science which are then making it easier for trans people to be open about themselves and who they are.


How..?
#14956785
As I have said before, the biggest mistake is believing the arguments are relevant. The purpose of culture is to decide what is acceptable and what is not. The obsession with human rights simply ignores the historic right of communities which are the basis of civilization. The idea a community must prove anything is ridiculous. That was never their purpose. We took the idea a community should be accomodating and distorted it into they must accommodate everyone. If you do, then you no longer have common values that make a community possible. Anything taken too far in one direction becomes absurd.
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