End of maduro - hopefully. - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#14982327
As the title says it. Finally the Venezuelan socialists seem to be ousted. Before everyone cries imperialism do not forget about the opressive length they went to to hold to the power. If they were democratic socialists I wouldn't mind them but by now it is obviouse that they have ruined the country. They started well though.
#14982335
skinster wrote:^ Lapdogs of US Empire are so boring these days.

Venezuela voted for Maduro.




Enforcing the global liberal order has a certain monetary and pr cost. I am not saying that everything that the us does in this regard is bad but there is nobody else to do it. Nobody wants to really pay the price so to speak. And without the Us there would be a lot more chaos and strife. So what is your take on this? Do you think Maduros methods are acceptable? Did he improve the well-being of Venezuelans?
#14982339
Fuck the global order, it's destroying the planet and leading us quickly to our doom.

America needs to get its disgusting tentacles out of everywhere and fix itself.

JohnRawls wrote:And without the Us there would be a lot more chaos and strife.


:lol:
Citation needed.

So what is your take on this?


I oppose regime change wars because I'm not a psychopath and support democracy in Venezuela. If the opposition had any fighting chance of winning, they wouldn't have boycotted the elections, but they did so because they know more in the country would vote for themselves than for the U.S. Empire. :)

More good news:
#14982418
Wooohoo, I love democracy!! :hmm:

Expect establishment media to start talking about the need for the US to intervene to stop Maduro 'killing his own people' like in Ukraine. We live in Orwellian times my friends.
#14982428
skinster wrote:https://twitter.com/MikePrysner/status/1088189984052457473


Wrong. I think this is more like what would happen if Trump is declared the winner in this case. I don't believe in Bernie but comparing him to someone who have actually ruined the country's economy is rather a stretch.
#14982429
demima wrote:Wooohoo, I love democracy!! :hmm:

Expect establishment media to start talking about the need for the US to intervene to stop Maduro 'killing his own people' like in Ukraine. We live in Orwellian times my friends.


Indeed they need. Same for Hong Kong.
#14982432
Reality check for Maduro fans though:

There are 3 countries i think that support Maduro in the whole north, central and south America.
Around 10+ countries that support Guaido.
Literally almost everyone hates Maduro/Venezuela in the region right now.

Here is a map(I think only Cuba is missing from the list but i think it is because they haven't really given a message regarding the situation yet):
Image
#14982437
I don't see how the claim that Maduro was elected democratically has any bearing on the matter. Since when did democratic support imply legitimacy? Under that same argument, any attempt to depose Adolf Hitler prior to 1939 would have been unjustified irrespective of his domestic policies because he was likewise elected democratically.

This same assumption is frequently made people on all sides of spectrum, but no one really believes it and clearly neither do most of the nations in the world.
#14982438
I'm on record saying Maduro is a textbook Latin American buffoon-dictator, and I find the worshipers of the Venezuelan "revolution" on this forum to be deluded and pathetic. I doubt anyone seriously believes that Maduro and Chavez have done anything other than squander Venezuela's vast resources through corruption and incompetence. Maduro's recent trip to Turkey to buy a ridiculously expensive steak while people in his country are starving pretty much explodes the "man of the people" act.

That said, the Venezuelan opposition is absurd, in the pocket of the USA, and would almost certainly sell the country down the river. The two things can be true at the same time.

So, Venezuela is caught between a rock and a hard place. I just hope that if Trump decides to start bombing the Venezuelans "for their own good", Britain plays no part in it. :|
#14982440
Heisenberg wrote:I just hope that if Trump decides to start bombing the Venezuelans


I don't think this is going to happen so long as he can keep the neocons in his cabinet in check, Trump's nationalism generally gravitates against foreign wars; his actions in Syria being case-in-point. I expect him to be the one to announce a full withdrawal from Afghanistan if he is still president after 2020.

I have a hard time seeing any politician trying to sell another war, especially in South American of all places, to the U.S. public. Atleast with ISIS etc, the U.S. could always count on the threat of "terrorism" to justify their war-efforts to the American public which has yet to fully recover from the shock of 9/11.

No such justification would obtain in the case of Venezuela. The suggestion is somewhat preposterous.

At the same time @Heisenberg, I agree with you on the main point; one doesn't have to support anglo-sphere intervention in South America to simultaneously oppose banana-republic dictators like Maduro. They are not mutually exclusive positions.

For lovers of liberty, they are quite complimentary in point of fact. I see no contradiction is opposing faux-socialist dictators on one hand and opposing faux-democratic imperialists on the other.
Last edited by Victoribus Spolia on 24 Jan 2019 13:40, edited 1 time in total.
#14982442
Heisenberg wrote:I'm on record saying Maduro is a textbook Latin American buffoon-dictator, and I find the worshipers of the Venezuelan "revolution" on this forum to be deluded and pathetic. I doubt anyone seriously believes that Maduro and Chavez have done anything other than squander Venezuela's vast resources through corruption and incompetence. Maduro's recent trip to Turkey to buy a ridiculously expensive steak while people in his country are starving pretty much explodes the "man of the people" act.

That said, the Venezuelan opposition is absurd, in the pocket of the USA, and would almost certainly sell the country down the river. The two things can be true at the same time.

So, Venezuela is caught between a rock and a hard place. I just hope that if Trump decides to start bombing the Venezuelans "for their own good", Britain plays no part in it. :|


I agree that the opposition are probably what you said, but the people have to understand that, in almost everywhere in the developing world (as well as places like Hong Kong), whoever siding with the West is either more competent or has more integrity, at least for the time being.
Last edited by Patrickov on 24 Jan 2019 13:06, edited 1 time in total.
#14982443
Heisenberg wrote:I'm on record saying Maduro is a textbook Latin American buffoon-dictator, and I find the worshipers of the Venezuelan "revolution" on this forum to be deluded and pathetic. I doubt anyone seriously believes that Maduro and Chavez have done anything other than squander Venezuela's vast resources through corruption and incompetence. Maduro's recent trip to Turkey to buy a ridiculously expensive steak while people in his country are starving pretty much explodes the "man of the people" act.

That said, the Venezuelan opposition is absurd, in the pocket of the USA, and would almost certainly sell the country down the river. The two things can be true at the same time.

So, Venezuela is caught between a rock and a hard place. I just hope that if Trump decides to start bombing the Venezuelans "for their own good", Britain plays no part in it. :|


Actually Chavez was not bad at the beginning. His reforms did produce good outcomes for the people. Problem is that both Chavez and Maduro abandoned the democratic process along with things like rule of law, private property rights, separation of power etc

So in the end, it did not end well. The country is ruined and the damage has been done. I know that Maduro supporters will cry "Intervention" and "Capitalist obstructionism". Issue is that there would be no "intervention" or "capitalist obstructionism" if rule of law, property rights, democratic processes were respected. It is self-inflicted harm. Regional relations/global relations is something that you need to consider before violating or trying to rewrite them.
#14982446
JohnRawls wrote:So in the end, it did not end well. The country is ruined and the damage has been done. I know that Maduro supporters will cry "Intervention" and "Capitalist obstructionism". Issue is that there would be no "intervention" or "capitalist obstructionism" if rule of law, property rights, democratic processes were respected. It is self-inflicted harm. Regional relations/global relations is something that you need to consider before violating or trying to rewrite them.


I think my problem with this pragmatic political philosophy of yours is that it seems to imply that that not-following the status quo regarding domestic policy implies a right on the part of other nations to intervene and interfere. I don't necessarily agree with that either.
#14982453
Patrickov wrote:I agree that the opposition are probably what you said, but the people have to understand that, in almost everywhere in the developing world (as well as places like Hong Kong), whoever siding with the West is either more competent or has more integrity, at least for the time being.

Only if by "more competent" you mean "do exactly what we want them to do", like selling off their oilfields to BP, or giving Nestle a coffee monopoly. Libya's "national transitional council" has been presiding over a failed state defined by warlord-anarchy since 2011, but it goes unreported because western companies have basically been given all the oil. Not exactly a model of competence, if you ask me.

Also, the idea that people who actively call for foreign intervention in their countries have "integrity" is positively absurd. It's why I said what I did about the Venezuelan opposition - the simple fact is that the Maduro attack line on them, that they are bought and paid for by America, is true. :lol:

Victoribus Spolia wrote:At the same time @Heisenberg, I agree with you on the main point; one doesn't have to support anglo-sphere intervention in South America to simultaneously oppose banana-republic dictators like Maduro. They are not mutually exclusive positions.

100% agreed. Don't say that in front of our resident armchair revolutionaries though, because they'll accuse you of being a "Quisling" and an "apologist for Empire". :excited:
#14982455
Heisenberg wrote:100% agreed. Don't say that in front of our resident armchair revolutionaries though, because they'll accuse you of being a "Quisling" and an "apologist for Empire".



I've tried not to make a habit of caring too much what the tweed-jacket wearing, fountain-pen wielding, "warriors or the working man" think when it comes to the well-being of nations whose only real interest to them is as ammo in their war to constantly virtue signal against their home nations because of a sense of bitterness over their own student debt and the rising price of their local "south-of-the-border" cuisine of choice.

Fucking capitalists musta done it!!! Support MADURO!!!
#14982457
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I think my problem with this pragmatic political philosophy of yours is that it seems to imply that that not-following the status quo regarding domestic policy implies a right on the part of other nations to intervene and interfere. I don't necessarily agree with that either.


Pretty much VS. Intervention is not the only consequences though but it is one of the most severest ones. We live in a liberal rules based order in all Western countries without an exception. So it is a given that we will at the least critize any country that is gonna try to violate that order either internationally or domestically.

Without getting in to much detail, are we arrogant for believing that our order of things is superior? No, we are not. We have achieved contingent success in the last 100+ years. Majority of the last 100+ years can be described as countries outside of the liberal order trying to copy our technology, our know-how, etc but not our values and then failing in the end.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 25
Pro and Anti EU - The Arguments

I think Steve_American point is about like the EU[…]

Why I am a Materialist Christian

@Victoribus Spolia , Just wanted to note, make[…]

https://youtu.be/typ2pl2L47k His best movie so far[…]

Making water potable is simple, even a Muslim cou[…]