[JohnRawls]

I can't wait for him to declare he wants to be made 'president for life'; we'll still have some people claim he's a democrat! The country has a very large democratic deficit. Grown under both him and Chavez, reducing the separation of powers, politicising the police, army, judiciary, reducing press freedom. Even ending the political independence of the medical profession! Yeah!

The funny thing is that they don't even notice this. I respect people who can aknowledge this and argue for Maduro in some way. For example a Brexiter who acknowledges economic damage but says there are x and y benefits that overweight the economic damage in the short and medium term.

In this case though, those who support Maduro do not even aknowledge the economic troubles, democratic deficit, erosion of democracy etc. Their defense is simply imperialist aggression or US is bad. That is it. So there is no need to consider why this is happening and what might be happening in the country itself.

This is a general trend for many members here. It is much more interesting to debate things with people who are doing it honestly instead of shilling in one form or the other.

[redcarpet]

The funny thing is that they don't even notice this. I respect people who can aknowledge this and argue for Maduro in some way. For example a Brexiter who acknowledges economic damage but says there are x and y benefits that overweight the economic damage in the short and medium term.

In this case though, those who support Maduro do not even aknowledge the economic troubles, democratic deficit, erosion of democracy etc. Their defense is simply imperialist aggression or US is bad. That is it. So there is no need to consider why this is happening and what might be happening in the country itself.

This is a general trend for many members here. It is much more interesting to debate things with people who are doing it honestly instead of shilling in one form or the other.

As I think Peter Hitchens said once, the worst thing in politics is tribalism. Party/side/leader before country. Even if the policy is wrong, a lie is exposed, crimes exposed, etc.

[QatzelOk]

Also, ask yourself why these socialist utopias need to trade with the usa so badly in order not to be shit holes?

Why not ask someone else if you don't know the answer, layman.

The world has been restricted to trading in USA dollars since just after WW2. Most of the world's pro-western dictators have ensured that gold gets stored in UK or USA. For stability.

When nations attempt to leave the straight-jacket of USA bankster usury like Iraq and Libya did, they get destroyed really quickly with only made-up lies to justify these horrendous crimes against humanity.

Banks and other corporations have zero empathy for human survival. That's why they are so rich and powerful.

Why would a human being who admires survival want to empower them any more? Answer: they give humanity very few choices (no freedom).;

[layman]

You are talking nonsense. US dollars are not required to trade and even if they were, it is a freely tradable currency. The us can not restrict it.

The Venezuelan rulers are worse than those bankers you hate so much. They print currency to effectively steal from their own people while hoarding their own wealth abroad. Businesss Are “nationalised” which in Venezuela means handing them to loyalist cronies to run into the ground - more stealing and more exploitation under the banner of socialism.

[Pants-of-dog]

Even if we assume that is true, it is still not a good reason to have a foreign power intervene in domestic politics.

As history has shown us, intervention merely creates a scenario where everything is privatised, which means the businesses are handed over to cronies to run into the ground while wealth is funneled abroad.

[B0ycey]

God, I would love the US to sanction Estonia for some bullshit reason and then that someone tell me this has no impact on their livelihood.

And it needs to be said nobody is denying Maduro has made mistakes. He has made loads. But none of which justify sanctions. Unless you believe sanctions should be given to a nation for not being a US bitch.

#VenezuelafuturemadebyVenezuela.

[layman]

The USA should not intervene for many reasons. Not least that it gives these crooks and their useful idiots abroad a scapegoat.

A lot of this stuff has a basis in truth but people too often can’t see nuance or proportion. Yes the USA has meddled in this country but only a microscopic amount compared to the self inflicted harm. More so in Syria but I also argue it is less significant than people make out.

On the other side of the coin, there was probably a kernel of truth in Iraqi weapons of mass destruction or hitters accusations of polish incursions into German territory.

[B0ycey]

The USA should not intervene for many reasons. Not least that it gives these crooks and their useful idiots abroad a scapegoat.

A lot of this stuff has a basis in truth but people too often can’t see nuance or proportion. Yes the USA has meddled in this country but only a microscopic amount compared to the self inflicted harm. More so in Syria but I also argue it is less significant than people make out.

On the other side of the coin, there was probably a kernel of truth in Iraqi weapons of mass destruction or hitters accusations of polish incursions into German territory.

Well there was absolutely no truth in Iraqi WMD. Also you need to read up on the Petro Dollar to understand why oil rich nations are in the firing line if they part ways with the US Layman and why Dollars is the reserve currency today.

Nonetheless I find it embarrassing that anyone thinks the US are doing sanctions to help the people in Venezuela. It's like me saying to someone who is poor that I am helping you out by taking away all your money. So no, the US are doing what they are doing to give their home made puppet the keys to Venezuela so they can maintain their monopoly on oil. But if they got their way and Guadio got power all it would do is cause civil war there. Being that is the case, it is best to just leave Venezuela alone if you care about the nation. If people really were against Maduro in high numbers, he would have been ousted out by now.

[Beren]

God, I would love the US to sanction Estonia for some bullshit reason

Maybe the Russians will do it sometime and then invade them.

As to a military intervention in Venezuela, I doubt the US would do it itself. I don't think Trump would authorise it or it could get popular approval, and it would be an international outrage too. It would rather be done by a coalition of South American countries, I guess, among which Maduro doesn't seem to have many friends. Maybe that's why the Russians deployed two strategic bombers there. They couldn't bomb anything USAmerican anyway, but they could target anything Latin American.

[B0ycey]

I agree @Beren. I doubt America will take military action because there isn't the appetite for it anymore. Plus Russia are backing Venezuela. Which is why they are taking plan B and stealing any Venezuelan wealth they can and trying to supply arms to rebels via aid shipments.

Also I believe the US are trying to cause a civil war rather than involve themselves in another war. Although really only revolution can sort out this mess.

[B0ycey]

Del

[layman]

As if Russia was a factor preventing this

The last thing anyone needs is a revolution.

[JohnRawls]

God, I would love the US to sanction Estonia for some bullshit reason and then that someone tell me this has no impact on their livelihood.

And it needs to be said nobody is denying Maduro has made mistakes. He has made loads. But none of which justify sanctions. Unless you believe sanctions should be given to a nation for not being a US bitch.

#VenezuelafuturemadebyVenezuela.

We are sanctioned by Russia. They are blocking most of the food imports from us for example.(We are a net exporter) As for invasions, well, we had plenty of those.

Does it have no impact on our livelyhood? It does to a degree and it affects important sectors of the economy but it doesn't mean that we are not growing around 4-5%

Also your rhetoric is quite disturbing: "I want your country to get hurt bad, muahahah"
At the least you are honest about it. The reason why we won't get sanctioned/invaded though is because we are friends with the people that we trade(EU, US, Israel, China , etc)
The only country we are not super friendly with is Russia but that is due to historical reasons.

[Negotiator]

In this case though, those who support Maduro do not even aknowledge the economic troubles, democratic deficit, erosion of democracy etc.

Thats because these are propaganda lies by the USA. Why should I acknowledge what I dont believe to be true ?

Since when it is a reason to replace the government of a country with EXTERNAL FORCES merely because the economy is bad ? Thats a completely riddiculous argument right there.

Plus the reason why Venezuela has economic trouble are the sanctions of the USA, and the low price of oil. The later is caused by Saudi Arabia, which acts according to the wishes of the USA and floods the market with oil. So again the USA is to blame for this.

Your only other argument is democratic deficits and thats equally wrong. All these problems with Venezuela in respect to democracy have been orchestrated by the USA and the opposition led by the USA, not by the venezuelan government. Manduro won presidency in a completey fair way, and while his popularity is low due to the poor economy, he is still much more popular than the opposition.

So, again, why should I agree with what isnt true ? I wont.

[JohnRawls]

Thats because these are propaganda lies by the USA. Why should I acknowledge what I dont believe to be true ?

Since when it is a reason to replace the government of a country with EXTERNAL FORCES merely because the economy is bad ? Thats a completely riddiculous argument right there.

Plus the reason why Venezuela has economic trouble are the sanctions of the USA, and the low price of oil. The later is caused by Saudi Arabia, which acts according to the wishes of the USA and floods the market with oil. So again the USA is to blame for this.

Your only other argument is democratic deficits and thats equally wrong. All these problems with Venezuela in respect to democracy have been orchestrated by the USA and the opposition led by the USA, not by the venezuelan government. Manduro won presidency in a completey fair way, and while his popularity is low due to the poor economy, he is still much more popular than the opposition.

So, again, why should I agree with what isnt true ? I wont.

All is okay. I understand.

[QatzelOk]

You are talking nonsense. US dollars are not required to trade and even if they were, it is a freely tradable currency. The us can not restrict it.

The Venezuelan rulers are worse than those bankers you hate so much. They print currency to effectively steal from their own people while hoarding their own wealth abroad. Businesss Are “nationalised” which in Venezuela means handing them to loyalist cronies to run into the ground - more stealing and more exploitation under the banner of socialism.

The banksters you seem to prefer over elected leaders.... went bankrupt in 2008 because of their own corruption, and have received trillions in government money since that time.

I guarantee you that Nicolas Maduro would have gotten a lot more literacy, health care, food and housing out of all that stolen-from-American-taxpayers money.

Western banksters steal, lie about it in (their own) commercial media, and then waste all the money on their own infinite supply of gilded nest-eggs.

Most of the leaders that the Bankster-lead West kills... committed the crime of "equal distribution of opportunity" which every Ponzi-scheme tends to hate.

colorful graphs

That's right, Jack the Ripper, the woman you are choking to death is turning blue, her pulse is weak, and her skin is becoming very clammy to the touch. It must be her feminism that's killing her.

[B0ycey]

Also your rhetoric is quite disturbing: "I want your country to get hurt bad, muahahah"
At the least you are honest about it.

My rhetoric is quite simple. For someone to understand what it is they cheerlead for they need to face what it is that they cheerleader for. So no malice on my part. Although it was you who created an entire thread about how much you want Uncle Sam to steal from Venezuela - which actually is quite disturbing.

[skinster]

I see the butt-sniffers are still here wishing for war on Venezuela like the sickos they are, as though they really care about Venezuela's economy.

Since when it is a reason to replace the government of a country with EXTERNAL FORCES merely because the economy is bad ? Thats a completely riddiculous argument right there.

They pretend to care about the human rights of Venezuelans but if they did, they'd be supporting the majority in the country - including amongst the opposition - who oppose any military intervention.

I mean really, it's 2019, stop pretending you care about the economy or human rights, we've been through this shit a number of times in the last decade alone. Just admit you want war for oil and regime change for a neoliberal economy. I think @Zionist Nationalist is probably the only honest poster ITT who admits as such, the others are too chicken-shit to admit what it is they're really supporting.

Although it was you who created an entire thread about how much you want Uncle Sam to steal from Venezuela - which actually is quite disturbing.

It is, but I'm actually kinda hopefully the regime-change warriors won't get what they want since even rightwing govts in the region are saying no to military intervention.

Medea Benjamin from CodePink did some more good disrupting:


Tomorrow is an international day of action against war on Venezuela in cities worldwide, here's the list:
https://www.nowaronvenezuela.org/23feb

[Atlantis]

The European left is determined to destroy the last bit of credibility it has left by supporting a corrupt dictatorship. They didn't learn from Berlin, Hungary, Prague, Gdansk. They will always make the worst choice possible. Where did this self-destructive urge come from?

[skinster]

Quite the dictatorship eh, where the opposition march regularly without any issues with the police, where they in plain sight call for foreign intervention and are allowed to go on with their day. It's you warmongers that have little credibility and it's why things aren't going your warmongeral-y way.