[Patrickov]

Sincere people would demand that the perpetrators be brought to justice. Yet I don't even hear demands for resignations. It's so pathetic you've got to laugh.

This is a harder case because these genocides are at least partially due to ignorance (e.g. by not being aware that they are wiping out a big community) rather than malice. It's easy to persecute actual killers on charges like murder, but asking to jail the PM and his team, many of whom probably had no knowledge of that before taking up power, is plain absurd.

Your stance is understandable given your utter mistrust of politicians (who trusts them anyway?), but in any case you have the responsibility to give proof to support your claim that these politicians are not being sincere, which, unfortunately, you failed to so far.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

This is a harder case because these genocides are at least partially due to ignorance (e.g. by not being aware that they are wiping out a big community) rather than malice. It's easy to persecute actual killers on charges like murder, but asking to jail the PM and his team, many of whom probably had no knowledge of that before taking up power, is plain absurd.

I'm not calling for anybody to go to jail. What I'm saying is that any serious person who genuinely believes that a genocide is happening in Canada would call for trials. It's in a court where guilt/innocence is established.

Note that Canada itself has a duty to try the perpetrators under a UN convention it has signed. I have already quoted this earlier but here it is again:

Genocide is a legal term — a crime — which, according to the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, shall be tried "by a competent tribunal of the State in the territory of which the act was committed." Countries that have ratified the genocide convention, which include Canada, are obliged to both prevent and punish the perpetrators of genocide.

This means that if Trudeau is serious when he says "this was genocide," legal proceedings will be forthcoming (the implications of which, needless to say, would be enormous). If they are not, which is the infinitely more likely course, Trudeau sends a message about how serious he is when he calls the treatment of Indigenous Peoples "genocide." This is the quagmire in which the prime minister now finds himself.

As an aside, nobody knows the actual numbers of murders and disappearances. Estimates that I've seen range from around 1,000 to several thousands since 1980. Over the same time period the indigenous population has also grown quite dramatically to 1.5 million. It therefore doesn't seem right to say that big communities have been wiped out.

Your stance is understandable given your utter mistrust of politicians (who trusts them anyway?), but in any case you have the responsibility to give proof to support your claim that these politicians are not being sincere, which, unfortunately, you failed to so far.

I'm at a loss as to what kind of proof you would accept.

[Patrickov]

I'm not calling for anybody to go to jail. What I'm saying is that any serious person who genuinely believes that a genocide is happening in Canada would call for trials. It's in a court where guilt/innocence is established.

Which, as I saw in the first article, is already in motion, albeit not by Canada but a higher organization.

Justin Trudeau is now the first Canadian Prime Minister to be investigated for state-sponsored mass murder by an international body in which Canada is a member state.

Why call for establishment of something already happening?

This also makes the call of Trudeau to "be sincere and ask for a trial within Canada" moot.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

The OAS has offered to investigate, but I'm not aware that Canada has accepted it. At any rate, they don't have any authority over Canada and are obviously not a court where individuals would be tried.

It’s quite unbelievable isn’t it. They have used the word genocide, and yet no ones head is rolling..

Yeah, nobody seems to even consider resignations. It's less serious than an expense scandal.

[BigSteve]

It is ongoing.

Where can I read about this?

I've traveled extensively through Canada and have never heard even a whisper about this...

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Where can I read about this?

Canada Blamed for ‘Genocide’ Against Indigenous Women

An inquiry concluded that high rates of violence against indigenous women in Canada amount to a genocide fueled by government abuses

OTTAWA—A yearslong inquiry concluded that high rates of violence against indigenous women in Canada amount to a “genocide” fueled by government abuses, putting more pressure on Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to address an issue his government has identified as a priority.

The finding is contained in a scathing 1,200-page report released Monday that says failures in Canada’s law-enforcement and justice system, along with the historical practice of forcibly removing indigenous children from their parents, contributed to indigenous women being overrepresented among victims of crime. The inquiry, commissioned by Mr. Trudeau’s government after he came to power in late 2015, heard testimony from hundreds of family members and survivors of violence.

The report, covering decades of history, said indigenous people often faced racist and sexist responses from police and in the country’s court system. In some missing persons cases, police investigations were held up because of assumptions the person was drunk or out partying, the inquiry was told. In addition, survivors of violence testified that they often feared contacting police because they had encountered indifference or victim-blaming in the past.

“The truth is that we live in a country whose laws and institutions perpetuate violations of basic human and indigenous rights,” said Marion Buller, a former judge and the head of the inquiry whose mandate was to look into cases of missing and murdered aboriginal women. “These violations amount to nothing less than the deliberate, often covert campaign of genocide against indigenous women,” said Ms. Buller, who belongs to the Cree indigenous group.

More than 1,000 indigenous women and girls were murdered between 1980 and 2012 and another 164 were still missing, according to a 2014 report by Canadian police. The inquiry’s report said thousands of other indigenous women’s deaths and disappearances have likely gone unrecorded over past decades. Overall, indigenous women in Canada are six times more likely to be murdered than nonindigenous women, the country’s data agency has said.

During a ceremony to unveil the inquiry’s findings, Mr. Trudeau said the country’s justice system has failed indigenous women and promised to take action. He didn’t, however, use the term genocide.

“We need to fix the way things work in this country,” Mr. Trudeau said. “We must continue to decolonize our existing structures, and the racism, sexism and economic inequality that has allowed such violence against indigenous women and girls to prevail must be eradicated.”

Frank Chalk, a history professor at Montreal’s Concordia University and expert in the history of genocides, said he doesn’t believe the term genocide is applicable in this case. “What we’re really dealing with are police forces who...did not take these deaths seriously,” he said.

Mr. Chalk said the focus should be on inquiry’s recommendations, which include supporting affordable transportation in remote parts of the country, where people are often forced to hitchhike to get from one community to another, and improving reporting for missing indigenous women.

Mr. Trudeau has worked to advance reconciliation with the country’s 1.7 million indigenous people, which he has made a policy priority since coming to office. Indigenous Canadians make up roughly 5% of the total 37 million population, and fare poorly on a range of indicators, with higher rates of suicide, incarceration and infant mortality than the general population. Those who live on reserves and in more remote parts of the country often face difficulties accessing health care services, transportation and education.

The government has had some successes, including the installation of water-filtration systems in indigenous communities. But it has struggled to deliver on many of its promises. It also suffered an embarrassing setback when a court ruled last year that the Liberal government failed to adequately consult indigenous communities on plans to build a crude-oil pipeline across western Canada.

Mr. Trudeau has said the relationship between the Canadian government and indigenous people needs to be rebuilt and the process will likely take decades.

Monday’s report isn’t the first time Canada’s treatment of indigenous people has been labeled a genocide. A separate inquiry released in 2015 found Canada’s centurylong practice of forcibly removing indigenous children from their homes and educating them at government-funded residential schools was a “cultural genocide.”

Matthew Fletcher, who directs the indigenous law and policy center at Michigan State University, said Native Americans have faced similar wrongs in the U.S., including the forced removal of children from Native American families. He said Canada has done more in recent years to recognize the problem publicly.

Bernice Catcheway, one of the witnesses who testified before the inquiry, said police at first refused to investigate after she reported in 2008 her daughter Jennifer was missing. Ms. Catcheway said police told her 18-year-old daughter was probably out drinking and to give her another week.

Ms. Catcheway said it took nearly a month for police to follow up on a tip she and her husband had provided. In 2017, she told the inquiry her daughter was still missing.

Brenda Lucki, head of the Royal Canadian Mountain Police, said the police force has implemented a number of changes to address previous shortcomings in investigations dealing with indigenous women. In a statement, she reiterated a promise made last year during testimony before inquiry officials to do a better job in supporting indigenous families.

The article was written before Trudeau accepted and used the word genocide.

I've traveled extensively through Canada and have never heard even a whisper about this...

That's because hardly anybody would regard what has been happening as a genocide.

[Beren]

If Canada's actions are a genocide

I'd rather consider them atrocities, which still could be crimes against humanity, so the perpetrators could be taken to the Hague. As to Trudeau and his wife, they could be great presenters of Eurovision, they could have joined Madonna in Tel Aviv.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Why on earth has nobody brought up Israel in this thread before? It's really about time. We hardly ever talk about that country after all.

[Beren]

Why on earth has nobody brought up Israel in this thread before?

It's really a mystery to me as well. If Trudeau is so concerned about atrocities, against indigenous people especially, he shouldn't shake hands with Netanyahu (and smile) perhaps, publicly at least.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Absolutely. It's inconceivable how the PM of Canada could have the temerity to do something as depraved as shaking the hand of the Israeli PM. Thanks for pointing this out to us, Beren, and please remain ever vigilant in reporting future transgressions.

[Pants-of-dog]

I don’t care much for UN definitions. So I still don’t think genocide is the appropriate word here at this point in time.

Crime against humanity I could deal with because it just stops short of the G word, but also let’s the reader know, that if the “crime against humanity” goes unchecked, it will be genocide.

That’s where we are at methinks..

Can you please explain why this is not genocide? Thanks.

I forgot to ask, this commission that came up with the finding, were there indigenous people on the board? And what do Canadian elders say about it? Is it a unanimous consensus?

You can Google all of this.

It’s quite unbelievable isn’t it. They have used the word genocide, and yet no ones head is rolling..

If you are referring to the lack of punishment, this is common for western leaders who have committed these types of atrocities. I assume the average westerner simply does not care enough about the violence and oppression to actually hold the government accountable.

———————

While I think it's the correct move to make sure such kinds of things not to happen again and the perpetrators, if alive, should be punished, I think you are a bit too obsessive on well-known or even well-followed up Western crimes, while turning a blind eye on other current crimes against humanity happening around anti-West countries, such as Sudan, Myanmar, China, etc.

IMHO the Western System are done with genocides so it's stupid to pretend they are still more likely to commit this than more backwards countries / regimes around, many of whom are too indulged in national or racial pride to talk reason.

I live in Canada.

It is my duty to hold my government accountable for this.

My wife and daughters are indigenous women, and this directly endangers them.

————————

.....
Canada recognises 5 genocides (Armenia, Ukraine, Holocaust, Rwanda, Bosnia) and has now unilaterally declared its treatment of the indigenous population equivalent to those.

I doubt the report found that they were all the same thing. Can you show that the report defined genocide in the same way it was used t describe these other events?

Please quote from the report, thanks.

If this is to be taken seriously what moral authority does Canada have left? What does it say about Canadians who apparently know this but have done nothing while, to quote the report, "Canada has displayed a continuous policy, with shifting expressed motives but an ultimately steady intention, to destroy Indigenous peoples physically, biologically, and as social units"?

It says that Canadians are willing to turn a blind eye to crimes against humanity.

In that respect, Canadians are like US residents and Europeans.

[Beren]

Absolutely. It's inconceivable how the PM of Canada could have the temerity to do something as depraved as shaking the hand of the Israeli PM. Thanks for pointing this out to us, Beren, and please remain ever vigilant in reporting future transgressions.

What's the matter, Kaisy? I thought this was a thread about Trudeau's political opportunism during his federal election campaign, but it seems like you rather meant to open a linguistics thread in Today's News.

[Patrickov]

I live in Canada.

It is my duty to hold my government accountable for this.

My wife and daughters are indigenous women, and this directly endangers them.

You sounds like ignoring the very first sentence of your quote of me.

Seriously, Sir, I think your apparent belligerent personality (admittedly, based on the tone of your posts here only, not that I have any chance to know you in daily life) might endanger your family more than your government's policies or your neighbourhood's stance (if any).

Or, God forbid, are there members of your community who engage in harassment against your family?

[Pants-of-dog]

I am not interested in your opinion of me, or my writing style. I answered your off topic question about why I focus more on this than other atrocities around the globe.

But I agree that Trudeau, Harper, and various other government officials should be tried by an international court for their crimes. I just think it is highly unlikely.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I doubt the report found that they were all the same thing.

The report found that Canada's treatment of the indigenous population belongs in the same category as the Holocaust .

It says that Canadians are willing to turn a blind eye to crimes against humanity.

It says that maintaining the status quo in Canada is akin to the Holocaust.

In that respect, Canadians are like US residents and Europeans.

All people of European heritage carry the stain of original sin. We desperately need to be rescued by progressive baptism.

What's the matter, Kaisy?

I'm expressing my appreciation for your important contribution to this thread. It's sorely needed.

[Patrickov]

I am not interested in your opinion of me, or my writing style. I answered your off topic question about why I focus more on this than other atrocities around the globe.

I'm sure that I am still on topic.

The two facts that you live in Canada and your wife's race had been victims of (what your country's PM claims to be) genocide, do not necessarily mean that they are actually under threat, with the following reasons:

1. Firstly, of course, your country's PM admits it and vows to find a way to reverse it. Even if he's opportunistic when saying that, what is heard cannot be unheard.
2. Individual safety, after all, comes down to individual factors as well as their immediate surroundings, instead of on a national scale. That's why I ask that "God forbid" question.

But I agree that Trudeau, Harper, and various other government officials should be tried by an international court for their crimes. I just think it is highly unlikely.

As I said in #15011467, this is plain absurd, even for Harper's case. Even @Kaiserschmarrn admits that she's not explicitly asking anybody to go to jail.

[Beren]

I'm expressing my appreciation for your important contribution to this thread. It's sorely needed.

It's sorely needed to make it a real news thread, or Trudeau-thread, indeed.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

It's sorely needed to make it a real news thread indeed.

I couldn't agree more. It's not news if Israel is not mentioned.

[B0ycey]

Are we prentending Israel doesn't partake in genocide? If wasn't a US ally, Netanyanhu and his predecessors would have been sent to the Hague by now.

Although to stay on topic, the only person the use of this term affects is Trudeau. If there is a crime and he is guilty, it isn't he who makes the judgment for his crime or punishment but someone else. So why the drama?

[Kaiserschmarrn]

As I said in #15011467, this is plain absurd, even for Harper's case. Even @Kaiserschmarrn admits that she's not explicitly asking anybody to go to jail.

Well, if they are found guilty they obviously would have to go to jail.

And just to clarify in case this is not clear, I do not agree with the report's conclusion. What I'm saying is that the only reasonable position for somebody who genuinely agrees with it is to demand that the people responsible be tried. I find it hard to understand why anybody would contest that.

Are we prentending Israel doesn't partake in genocide? If wasn't a US ally, Netanyanhu and his predecessors would have been sent to the Hague by now.

Feel free to make a thread about it and don't forget to invite Beren. He might have more incriminating pictures of handshakes and the like.

Although to stay on topic, the only person the use of this term affects is Trudeau. If there is a crime and he is guilty, it isn't he who makes the judgment for his punishment but someone else. So why the drama?

I have no idea why you think this would only affect Trudeau.